Pre-Game Talk: Leafs @ Winnipeg Sat Oct 22nd 7:00pm

[PromisedLand]

Well if the Leafs are dressing tough guys, suddenly "sneaky crosschecks" are penalties again. Just in time!

Ideal situation is Leafs get the 2 points without the core 4 getting any bruises/injury/etc...

But I don't care much about the 2 points this game; care more about health of core 4

 

[Advanced stats]

Lets also ignore the fact that our 1st line has been invisible for most the season now

LOL it's been 5 games.

 

[Gilmour1996]

If Matthews doesn't like getting hit hard, why doesn't he hit someone hard? He is a big guy. He can throw a hit. Don't get involved in any petty crap but if you want to make them feel what you feel, then do it....

I don't think Matthews is the guy you want breaking knuckles on someone's helmet. Or even worse things can happen. Was he was drafted for his hitting? Actually, playing hockey (not armchair hockey) is a good way to understand the dynamics of a team and the importance of its role players and how they make the rest of the team play braver and better.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Yes, fighting Dubois does nothing, but if Dubois is causing their skill players to be retaliated against his own coach will have him on a short leash quickly.

A physical presence with top-6 skill will open up more space for the top line than Bunting does, the intimidation (and hopefully motivating Matthews to throw his weight around more aggressively) is just a bonus.

Maybe if it was a goon doing it, but I don't think Winnipeg is benching a top 6 player because he is dirty. We've had back-and-forth spats with Winnipeg before and I don't think us going after their good players really did anything to stop him from doing it.

It is just in their nature. You can't really do anything to stop or prevent it. Just stand up for yourself and kill them on the score sheet.

And really, if the NHL had their **** together, they are the ones responsible for player safety and making sure dirty crap doesn't happen. Games against Winnipeg have already got out of hand before.

Yeah I would hope he doesn't think they actually need them, but I doubt he does. Keefe, on the other hand, definitely thinks they have value as physical deterrents. That's a bit more of an issue, as the bottom 6 looks like shit. I don't even think winnipeg is a physical enough team to even worry about, and if they are then they won't be deterred by some shitty 4th liners

Hence why I said this is arguably the worst lineup decision he has made. Tons of people whining about playing Holl but then they are fine with playing a pair of guys who are clearly not NHL-caliber anymore because they occasionally throw some punches and hits... Assuming they can even line a guy up or find a guy willing to fight them anymore.

Just tells me a lot about this fanbase TBH.

 

[LaPlante94]

LOL it's been 5 games.

And? People are bitching about 4th line players 5 games into the season but it's a problem if people say our 1st line has been invisible those 5 games as well? Is this really what these forums have become?

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I don't think Matthews is the guy you want breaking knuckles on someone's helmet. Or even worse things can happen. Was he was drafted for his hitting? Actually, playing hockey (not armchair hockey) is a good way to understand the dynamics of a team and the importance of its role players and how they make the rest of the team play braver and better.

Then don't get into a fight. This isn't the 80's. Designated fighters do not have roles in the NHL anymore.

I am not suggesting Matthews do something stupid, but he is already throwing hits. He is 3rd on our team in hits as it is. If he wants to send a message, he can without being stupid... And he certainly doesn't need a shotgun goon to do it for him.

And? People are bitching about 4th line players 5 games into the season but it's a problem if people say our 1st line has been invisible those 5 games as well? Is this really what these forums have become?

I choose to bitch about both

 

[hockeyes]

This is just one of the reasons why it pisses me off that Matthews is getting called out this season. He is getting dragged down by his linemates who constantly lose puck/board battles and don't win races to the puck. Marner and Bunting have been absolute crap

Matthews is doing all that he can

Matthews has been dragging himself down so far this year, he is losing the puck and giving it away plenty all on his own. I don't particularly care, he will obviously get it going but that has nothing to do with his line mates currently.

 

[Nylander88]

Once again...struggling to figure out that a toughness deterrent is necessary. We've looked so uninspiring through the first 5 games this year. Glad Engvall is benched, there's been zero battle from that guy this season. Looks uninterested which is sad, as I thought he'd take a step forwards with that new 2.25mil contract and a lock on a full-time role. I think we should be finding a home for him, which will actually help with cap compliance. We need Simmonds and Clifford tonight because of the big bad Jets....well guess what! We're gonna need one of them in the lineup for the same reasons come playoff time. Ship Engvall out of town, and have Simmonds & Clifford rotate back and forth with one another.
Bunting-Matthews-Marner
Robertson-Tavares-Nylander
ZAR-Kerfoot-Jarnkrok
Clifford/Simmonds-Kampf-NAK

I think that group is much more ready to go to war when the games start to count. This team has looked beyond uninterested with nobody to shift the momentum in games this season. I know Simmonds would have been looking for Benn after that cross-check to Matthews hip last game. Others on this team don't care in that regard. Bunting is a pest. ZAR & NAK finish checks which is necessary. But we have nobody to answer the bell if things go sideways, and that's scary

 

[Folignos Helmet]

I think this is more about a message to everyone not in the core 4 if you don’t finish checks or make your presence known you are out.
If you include Bunts and Kerfoot with the 4 the other 6 spots are up for grabs nightly between about 10 or 11 guys.
The cap was saving them before. It’s not now.
If PLD or some other puke takes a beating as a side effect so be it.

 

[PromisedLand]

Cmon bro Keefe has done worse lineup decisions.

I also think Matthews disagrees with your take:

Matthews knows what he is talking about...!!!

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Yes, fighting Dubois does nothing, but if Dubois is causing their skill players to be retaliated against his own coach will have him on a short leash quickly.

A physical presence with top-6 skill will open up more space for the top line than Bunting does, the intimidation (and hopefully motivating Matthews to throw his weight around more aggressively) is just a bonus.

Maybe if it was a goon doing it, but I don't think Winnipeg is benching a top 6 player because he is dirty. We've had back-and-forth spats with Winnipeg before and I don't think us going after their good players really did anything to stop him from doing it.

It is just in their nature. You can't really do anything to stop or prevent it. Just stand up for yourself and kill them on the score sheet. Our good players are more than capable of doing both.

 

[Mess]

been around about 10 years on these forums now and still the same old. Still complaining about 4th liners and acting like they bring our entire team down. Have they been great? No, but this is probably the 1st time they've all been on a line together where they didn't have a guy who could carry the puck. Probably gonna take some time to adjust. We honestly got guys on the Marlies who would fit that 4th line C role better since Kampf has shown he can handle the 3rd line C role. Lets also ignore the fact that our 1st line has been invisible for most the season now and our defence still doesn't know how to pinch when they got no support. Oh yeah, can't forget about our PP.

And? People are bitching about 4th line players 5 games into the season but it's a problem if people say our 1st line has been invisible those 5 games as well? Is this really what these forums have become?

Wouldn't it be nice if the team could insert Mason Marchment on the top line beside Matthews and Marner and address both toughness and top line at the same time?

 

[PromisedLand]

Matthews has been dragging himself down so far this year, he is losing the puck and giving it away plenty all on his own. I don't particularly care, he will obviously get it going but that has nothing to do with his line mates currently.

From what I've seen of him; i don't think thats entirely true. He makes good plays and wins pucks but then his line mates lay an egg so he tried to do too much on his own out of frustration later on in the game and that is when what you are saying transpires

 

[LaPlante94]

Then don't get into a fight. This isn't the 80's. Designated fighters do not have roles in the NHL anymore.

I am not suggesting Matthews do something stupid, but he is already throwing hits. He is 3rd on our team in hits as it is. If he wants to send a message, he can without being stupid... And he certainly doesn't need a shotgun goon to do it for him.



I choose to bitch about both

At least you're consistent. People who pick and choose who to bitch about are the problem.

 

[Rubyblue]

Guys who play heavy are loved in Toronto.
It fires up the crowd.
The crowd gets loud.
The team gets a boost of adrenaline.
They kill off the 5 minute major. (0-0)
The crowd gets louder.
They get the momentum.
They score.





Then They get taken out of the line up and lose 4 of their next six.

Or something like that.
Respect in the handshake line.

In a nutshell. Right on.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

been around about 10 years on these forums now and still the same old. Still complaining about 4th liners and acting like they bring our entire team down. Have they been great? No, but this is probably the 1st time they've all been on a line together where they didn't have a guy who could carry the puck. Probably gonna take some time to adjust. We honestly got guys on the Marlies who would fit that 4th line C role better since Kampf has shown he can handle the 3rd line C role. Lets also ignore the fact that our 1st line has been invisible for most the season now and our defence still doesn't know how to pinch when they got no support. Oh yeah, can't forget about our PP.

Yeah definitely has been zero discussion around here about any of the things you mentioned. Complete silence.

 

[Leafsfan74]

I was going to say it was one of three things:

- Either Matthews doesn't know a bad player when he sees one. Obviously not.
- He actually believes they need a guy like Simmonds or Clifford in the lineup to bring energy or intensity into this lineup... Which is a major yikes on his part.
- He wasn't going to say anything bad about a pair of likable vets who are clearly over the hill when everyone, including Clifford and Simmonds, knows it.

Also, if we are using the whole "actions speak louder than words" logic as was used in that Marner thread about his comments on Monday, shouldn't players not need to point out that they are not negative players if they are, in fact, not negative players?

They set a record in team points last year and Simmonds was a regular player in the lineup, Clifford was in for 30 games or so especially down the stretch.

As long as they are not liabilities and can try to play a zero sum game on the scoreboard, they bring a presence that most teams need.

I don't think they need to play 80 games, but if they play and the team wins, they should be in for the next one.

 

[LaPlante94]

Wouldn't it be nice if the team could insert Mason Marchment on the top line beside Matthews and Marner and address both toughness and top line at the same time?

He would look good anywhere in our lineup atm.

Yeah definitely has been zero discussion around here about any of the things you mentioned. Complete silence.

I'm going off of this thread. I don't read every comment on every thread on this board.

 

[KingsHockey24]

They set a record in team points last year and Simmonds was a regular player in the lineup, Clifford was in for 30 games or so especially down the stretch.

As long as they are not liabilities and can try to play a zero sum game on the scoreboard, they bring a presence that most teams need.

I don't think they need to play 80 games, but if they play and the team wins, they should be in for the next one.

Do I believe Clifford and Simmonds are as skilled as Engvall or Malgin / etc? No.

But I do think Cliffy and Simmer can have a bigger impact on a game playing 8 minutes than any of those other guys could. Looking forward to tonight!

 

[PromisedLand]

I was going to say it was one of three things:

- Either Matthews doesn't know a bad player when he sees one. Obviously not.
- He actually believes they need a guy like Simmonds or Clifford in the lineup to bring energy or intensity into this lineup... Which is a major yikes on his part.
- He wasn't going to say anything bad about a pair of likable vets who are clearly over the hill when everyone, including Clifford and Simmonds, knows it.

Also, if we are using the whole "actions speak louder than words" logic as was used in that Marner thread about his comments on Monday, shouldn't players not need to point out that they are not negative players if they are, in fact, not negative players?

Leafs are softer than melted butter. Matthews was doing all the hitting. Team needs energy guys. Its an 82 game season this isn't playoffs. You need someone to hit, bring energy, lay the verbal smackdown on opponents to get the bench overheatead and into the freakin' game with emotion. Leafs are lifeless on the freakin bench no emotion what-so-ever!!!

In an answer to one of the questions you posted in another post? Keefe's worst decision was playing Holl in the playoffs instead of Lily. Holl singlehandedly lost Leafs Game 6 and Game 7. Keefe has made other WORST line up decisions like forcing Jumbo Joe in the freakin' line up to play top 6, freakin' Muzzin-Holl disasterous pairing, scratching Spezza in the playoffs etc....

Keefe can be a HUGE MORON sometimes. Both Simmonds and Clifford in when Leafs are taking abuse from opposition, have no emotion or energy is one of the best decisions he has made.

Its a shame when it takes a Robertson to bring energy to a team. This team needs a boost of energy and emotion which both Simmonds and Clifford will bring.

the 4th line guys don't do F all anyway. What the F has the 4th line without Simmonds and Clifford achieved till now?

 

[The Masters]

Engvall out. Good. He’s garbage.

Clifford in for him

 

[Tarmore]

I will be very surprised is the Refs don't call Clifford and Simmonds for the most chinsey calls they can, and our 'media' will claim they are good calls.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

They set a record in team points last year and Simmonds was a regular player in the lineup, Clifford was in for 30 games or so especially down the stretch.

As long as they are not liabilities and can try to play a zero sum game on the scoreboard, they bring a presence that most teams need.

I don't think they need to play 80 games, but if they play and the team wins, they should be in for the next one.

The problem is, they were liabilities. The team may have put up that record, but that does not mean Simmonds and Clifford were good. It just means that the rest of the team was excellent, and could have been that much better if we found better regulars than Simmonds and Clifford.

 

[notDatsyuk]

They can deter it by running Winnipeg's players when they get the ice.

And then Winnipeg says "your goons hit our stars, so now we'll send out goons out to hit yours stars".

 

[Shooter2x]

Then why is ZAR in this lineup? If we are sending messages to net negative players, why are our most net negative player in the lineup? He is literally the worst in every ES % category on our team right now.

It is not even like he has a ton of hits right now either, and that is like the main thing he was supposed to bring besides defense (which has been an unmitigated disaster to this point). NAK has almost twice as many as him in the same ice time. Engvall plays almost 3 minutes more and has 3 fewer hits, but he is also constantly being branded as "soft" and hitting is not keeping him in this lineup.

Fun fact I did not realize: Sandin is in the top 10 in hits by a defenseman with 17. Holl has 12. Muzzin has 11 (in 4 games). Holl is in the top 10 for blocks by a defenseman with 14.

Normally I'd be heavily in favor of defending a post like this and id like to say you are 100% correct, but the bottom 6 is so low quality I'd rather just go with a specialist approach even if that specialist approach is low skill goon play. At least it has some semblance of an identity.

Bottom 6 is officially in pick your poison stage. It saddens me I'm not as upset as I should be seeing Simmonds and Clifford back on the 4th line but that's more because it's not worth the energy to complain because alternatives are meh too. Waste energy over a bunch of meh