Havoc
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- Jul 25, 2009
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Pre-Game Talk: Leafs @ Winnipeg Sat Oct 22nd 7:00pm
- Thread starter Burnie97
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bansheebeat
Cherry-Coloured Funk
- Jul 31, 2011
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Simmonds and Clifford against the Jets? I hope Senor Martinez makes an appearance. too.
justashadowof
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- Aug 15, 2020
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Jesus. I'm not sure how you watch this team and think we need to have a skilled 4th line. We have so much skill through the top 9 forwards. When you look at the ice time on this team and how its very heavily lopsided to the top 9 forwards, there's no reason to not dress guys who can take care of the physical game.
When you look at the Atlantic division, every team has at least one guy dressed who can take care of the team physically if they have to. Swapping out a 4th line of ZAR, Kampf, and NAK and you're worried about losing skill?? Man your takes on this team are hilarious.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
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Then why is ZAR in this lineup? If we are sending messages to net negative players, why are our most net negative player in the lineup? He is literally the worst in every ES % category on our team right now.
It is not even like he has a ton of hits right now either, and that is like the main thing he was supposed to bring besides defense (which has been an unmitigated disaster to this point). NAK has almost twice as many as him in the same ice time. Engvall plays almost 3 minutes more and has 3 fewer hits, but he is also constantly being branded as "soft" and hitting is not keeping him in this lineup.
Fun fact I did not realize: Sandin is in the top 10 in hits by a defenseman with 17. Holl has 12. Muzzin has 11 (in 4 games). Holl is in the top 10 for blocks by a defenseman with 14.
CanadasTeam
Registered User
Cmon bro Keefe has done worse lineup decisions.
I also think Matthews disagrees with your take:
Gilmour1996
Registered User
- Oct 16, 2022
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When your first 3 lines play soft you need grit in your bottom line. Cheap shots like the one Benn hurt Matthews with have already started and unless we have Clifford and/or Simmonds in the lineup our best players will take a beating without any pushback whatsoever. Jets have been a team that specializes in cheap shots, hence the call-ups. Sometimes you have to do what the players want, not what the whiny fans think is best. They won't be playing much anyway.
KingsHockey24
Registered User
- Aug 1, 2013
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It's also a big mentality thing. Back when we had Kurtis MacDermid our players played with more .. "big dick" energy. I believe adding Simmer and Cliffy will get the Leafs goin'.
Martin Skoula
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- Oct 18, 2017
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Clifford and Simmonds are bandaid solutions, we need to sack up and spend the assets on getting a Wilson/Jeannot type in the top 6. Dubois landing a dirty hit and Simmonds fighting a 4th liner 3 shifts later doesn't do anything. The only thing that keeps Dubois in line is knowing that Ehlers and Connor are going on LTIR if he tries anything.
I dont think the fourth line will play much.
I expect them to get a few shifts early on, to shake the dust off, and then to come on as needed for the physical aspects of the game.
They probably won't be used to take the defensive-zone face-offs and clear the zone, as the Kampf lines have usually done this year and last. However, I did watch the Dallas game and thought that line was pretty ineffective at clearing the zone anyway. They spent a lot of time in their own zone and really didn't contribute much of anything to the Leafs' game plan. Last year you could count on Kampf, Kase and whoever to win the draw, clear the zone and get a shot on net or a stoppage of play to set up a face-off on the O-zone for one of the scoring lines. I'm not seeing that so far with this crew.
If they can't do their job anyway, then there's no harm in bringing in a couple of guys who will certainly play less than 10 minutes-- maybe as little as 5-8 minutes -- but can be counted on to deliver a hit or give some response to rough play from the other side. That, at least, would serve some purpose.
I don't think they have the legs to do much else.
I would like to see the Leafs develop young Douglas for that role.
I would really like to see a dependable fourth like that could be relied on to to win the face-off, clearmthe zone, and set-up the play at the other end of the ice. The Leafs need that to give organization and structure to their game. That's their role, and they aren't doing it.
I expect them to get a few shifts early on, to shake the dust off, and then to come on as needed for the physical aspects of the game.
They probably won't be used to take the defensive-zone face-offs and clear the zone, as the Kampf lines have usually done this year and last. However, I did watch the Dallas game and thought that line was pretty ineffective at clearing the zone anyway. They spent a lot of time in their own zone and really didn't contribute much of anything to the Leafs' game plan. Last year you could count on Kampf, Kase and whoever to win the draw, clear the zone and get a shot on net or a stoppage of play to set up a face-off on the O-zone for one of the scoring lines. I'm not seeing that so far with this crew.
If they can't do their job anyway, then there's no harm in bringing in a couple of guys who will certainly play less than 10 minutes-- maybe as little as 5-8 minutes -- but can be counted on to deliver a hit or give some response to rough play from the other side. That, at least, would serve some purpose.
I don't think they have the legs to do much else.
I would like to see the Leafs develop young Douglas for that role.
I would really like to see a dependable fourth like that could be relied on to to win the face-off, clearmthe zone, and set-up the play at the other end of the ice. The Leafs need that to give organization and structure to their game. That's their role, and they aren't doing it.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
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I think we need to have skill on all 4 lines. That doesn't mean you need to have guys like Malgin on the 4th line, but it does mean you have to have a playable 4th line. Clifford and Simmonds on a 4th line is not playable... At least not for a team with Cup aspirations. We can't afford to have a line which plays 8 easy minutes a night and is still getting outplayed most of the time.
On paper, I thought ZAR - Kampf - NAK could have been a playable 4th line. Not much to offer offensively, but could have chewed up tough defensive minutes and thrown a bunch of hits. That is what a line which takes care of things physically looks like in today's NHL. So far, they have been getting killed. Maybe they will figure it out in time, as it has only been 5 games, but if we are making changes to this lineup... That is the first place you should be looking to improve.
Tampa has Maroon, but he is also a much better player than Clifford/Simmonds and even then his contributions to Tampa have been overstated. Same with Foligno in Boston and Okposo in Buffalo. Ottawa is the only other team that has a 4th line with more gritty players, and it is mostly similar to the ZAR-Kampf-NAK one we have except it hasn't sucked nearly as bad thus far.
I'll leave it at this... The Leafs playoff woes can be attributed to a number of things, but physicality is not one of those things. Having Simmonds and Clifford in the lineup hurt us more than it helped in our last playoff run, and both were ultimately benched in favour of a more skilled 4th line. That line was far from spectacular, but it was able to clear a very low bar.
TheBeastCoast
Registered User
Yeah I mean I would have been fine with him out instead of NAK but I also just don't really care that much about the decision in the sample of one game.
ULF_55
Moderator
I suspect an unhappy ending tonight.
But heck, I don't think anyone knows who anyone is yet.
Except the Sabres are Cup favorites.
But heck, I don't think anyone knows who anyone is yet.
Except the Sabres are Cup favorites.
Mess
Global Moderator
Seems Matthews is tired from the physical abuse and that he is quite pleased to see a few players that will have his back this game.
I think more than anything they need a useful fourth line, which isn't necessarily scoring, but brings something that supports the overall strategy and style of play.
My preference is that stated above: I would really look forward to a fourth line with the specialized skill of taking the defensive zone faceoffs and clearing the zone. That's all they have to do. If they were capable of doing that, it would help rest the other three lines for their own separate missions and uses.
Sure, it would be nice to score a goal once in a while, but it's even more important to know their own job descriptions and carryout their core functions as much as possible all the time.
I'm not seeing that yet this year.
I didn't see it last year either until the blowout in Carolina before the win in Chicago. Then, the penny seemed to drop and everyone looked like they knew their roles.
They aren't there yet, and figuring out the fourth line is key.
robertmac43
Forever 43!
- Mar 31, 2015
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SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
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Anderson was playing mostly in that 4th line shutdown role in preseason (Kampf was really the only NHLer he played with in preseason). He didn't stand out, but nobody in that role really did (including ZAR and NAK)... And he did better than the crap NAK and ZAR have shown thus far.
At this point, I would let NAK and ZAR fight it out until 2023. That gives them almost half the season. If neither of them can figure it out, then I would give Anderson and other prospects a legit chance to steal that job from them before we turn to the trade market. Anderson is closest stylistically to NAK/ZAR and may be the best fit for what we were aiming to achieve with that 4th line, but maybe we abandon that idea entirely by Christmas.
I just do not want the Leafs to revert back to using guys like Simmonds and Clifford in this lineup. If we haven't learned that they are not going to help us win the Cup by now, then we have big problems. We have far too many talented and downright superior forwards in the system to be wasting our time on them anymore.
Clifford and Simmonds were always going to come in with how badly Matthews got abused last game. I know some posters get very triggered over the Leafs being called soft but reality just sucks sometimes.
Guys who play heavy are loved in Toronto.
It fires up the crowd.
The crowd gets loud.
The team gets a boost of adrenaline.
They kill off the 5 minute major. (0-0)
The crowd gets louder.
They get the momentum.
They score.
Then They get taken out of the line up and lose 4 of their next six.
Or something like that.
Respect in the handshake line.
It fires up the crowd.
The crowd gets loud.
The team gets a boost of adrenaline.
They kill off the 5 minute major. (0-0)
The crowd gets louder.
They get the momentum.
They score.
Then They get taken out of the line up and lose 4 of their next six.
Or something like that.
Respect in the handshake line.
ShaneFalco
Registered User
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
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Name them?
That tweet scares me a lot more than the comments made on Monday. That is a much worse look on Matthews and the rest of the players on this team.
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