Post-Game Talk: Leafs vs. Coyotes - Leading the League in Moral Victories

[Jack Bauer]

Pretty much yeah. Look at the third goal Mike Smith allowed last night. A shot from the point with a partial screen in front. Was that a weak/questionable goal? Or is it only a weak goal when it's against Bernier/Reimer?

It was a weak goal but they were up by 2 when it went in.

If he lets that in when they are down a goal or tied that changes the entire game.

It's the timing of the bad goals that's killing us more then the fact they're bad goals. Any bad goal is bad for anyone but the timing of it is the key.

 

[ULF_55]

I may even go with Kaberle in terms of draft picks who at a young age showed a ton of promise.

Schenn was actually ok at 18 but probably peaked at that age due to awful coaching and the ****** team atmosphere he was brought up in.

Rielly excites the hell out of me.

I thought about Kaberle, just think Vinnie had the better overall career.

I never bought into the Schenn excitement and got lambasted for suggesting he could use time in the minors. I think many saw what they wanted to see, and Maguire's endorsement was all some needed. Who knew?

I felt bad for Schenn after a while, you could see he was giving everything and just didn't have the mobility, ever, to be what was hyped.

 

[I Am The Stig]

I did say "almost". (and I did mean as a team and individually)

I'm very relaxed, personally. I'm just pointing out that the goaltending has been, to be put it mildly, sub-par so far this season.

Again, this isn't the reason why the Leafs have only one win, but it's a reason why.

Ironically sub par goaltending got the Leafs their first win and excellent goaltending still got them a loss

 

[SprDaVE]

Pretty much yeah. Look at the third goal Mike Smith allowed last night. A shot from the point with a partial screen in front. Was that a weak/questionable goal? Or is it only a weak goal when it's against Bernier/Reimer?

It was weak, but it wasn't Reimer weak (third goal in the same game) or the Bernier goals from Saturday (2 of them were not hard saves by any means, even Bernier agrees he was bad that night).

How many weak goals has Mike Smith allowed like that since the start of the season? I can tell you that he's been far more consistent and give his team a chance to compete, especially early in games. He hasn't let in goals like Bernier and Reimer have let in [almost] EVERY game. That is one of the big differences between a #1 goaltender and what we've seen with the Leafs --- consistency.

 

[ULF_55]

I did say "almost". (and I did mean as a team and individually)

I'm very relaxed, personally. I'm just pointing out that the goaltending has been, to be put it mildly, sub-par so far this season.

Again, this isn't the reason why the Leafs have only one win, but it's a reason why.

This might be the easiest season to watch in quite some time.

They're bad, they have a few young defenders worth watching, and the rest of the squad are the extra's in a low budget movie.

With good goaltending they probably have a couple wins, but so what? This team is the appetizer, the main course is still in the kitchen being cooked.

 

[SprDaVE]

This might be the easiest season to watch in quite some time.

They're bad, they have a few young defenders worth watching, and the rest of the squad are the extra's in a low budget movie.

With good goaltending they probably have a couple wins, but so what? This team is the appetizer, the main course is still in the kitchen being cooked.

So what? Well we're here to criticize, analyze and whatever.

Like most here, I fully expect(ed) us to be a bad team with many flaws...but I did not expect AHL level quality goaltending on most nights. That's all.

With that said, at least it's not bad like last season. I can somewhat enjoy watching the Leafs... at least they try. It's definitely not that embarrassing.

 

[ULF_55]

It was weak, but it wasn't Reimer weak (third goal in the same game) or the Bernier goals from Saturday (2 of them were not hard saves by any means, even Bernier agrees he was bad that night).

How many weak goals has Mike Smith allowed like that since the start of the season? I can tell you that he's been far more consistent and give his team a chance to compete, especially early in games. He hasn't let in goals like Bernier and Reimer have let in [almost] EVERY game. That is one of the big differences between a #1 goaltender and what we've seen with the Leafs --- consistency.

Heck, Price let in a stinker the other night, so yes good goalies can let in a bad one every now and then. You don't expect a good goalie to let in a bad one every other game though, or he'd be the back-up.

 

[glucker]

Pretty much yeah. Look at the third goal Mike Smith allowed last night. A shot from the point with a partial screen in front. Was that a weak/questionable goal? Or is it only a weak goal when it's against Bernier/Reimer?

Here's the thing, goalies are expected to stop high danger chances. Not all of them, but most of them.

You say vs Montreal that we have up a lot of scoring chances... But they didn't give up more than the league average.

Nobody expects the goalies to single handedly win us games... But it's pretty fair to say they've lost us a few so far, and won us none.

They've been bad. Bernier's game against the Sabres was the best performance we've seen all season... Only time one of the goalies came close to stealing a win.

If they'd been battling and playing well but not getting goal support, nobody would be complaining... But the Leafs have been a bit more offensive than many thought they'd be.

 

[SprDaVE]

Heck, Price let in a stinker the other night, so yes good goalies can let in a bad one every now and then. You don't expect a good goalie to let in a bad one every other game though, or he'd be the back-up.

Precisely.

 

[glucker]

Heck, Price let in a stinker the other night, so yes good goalies can let in a bad one every now and then. You don't expect a good goalie to let in a bad one every other game though, or he'd be the back-up.

Every other game would be nice.

Hell even once a game would be an improvement.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I'm a firm believer that you have to get worse in order to get better and right now that's what the Leafs are doing. I think this is the time when you can start weeding out players who won't fit in with this team and you can now evaluate what pieces you need moving forward and what pieces you need to acquire to be competitive and that starts at the net on out.

I agree.
like i think everyone can agree (who has sense anyway), that a lot of the team can't be drafted. the nucleus sure. but other than that? we're going to have to have veteran NHL players around them. they're not "good" and that's obvious, but there are going to have to be some players that will be part of Leafs 1.0 of the crafting. (ie: the Winnik's the Hunwicks, etc etc) etc etc.

Absolutely.

Look at Pacioretty's goals against us. Those goals kill a team.

Sometimes how a goal is scored means a lot more to a team then the fact it went in. A bad goal completely sucks the life out of a team.

that's how I've always seen it. it's not so much "Omg bad goal! Stone him! Stone him!!" but i think it's the timing and the situation. Hey whatever.

Definitely. We're still only in year 2 under Shanahan who is preaching absolute patience.

Lots of growing pains to come before this thing gets better.

Want to feel good about this team? Go look at how well the Marlies are doing.

exactly again. like seriously, if y'all want to see the future - watch the Marlies. support them. that's what's cracking me up that people are getting "mad" at this team isn't doing.... whatever. it really seems that 1/2 are mad that some people are still here (again: average time to dismantle a regimes roster is about five years, See Buffalo, Chicago, Pittsburgh - give or take a year). and the other 1/2 are mad that we're . . . rebuilding but we're not winning, or spectacular in doing it.

but we are amused.

Pretty much yeah. Look at the third goal Mike Smith allowed last night. A shot from the point with a partial screen in front. Was that a weak/questionable goal? Or is it only a weak goal when it's against Bernier/Reimer?

I honestly can't answer, I wasn't able to watch the entire game in full so i didn't see most of the goals scored (either end).

i would ask, was it short side? Was Smith cheating on his angles? was it a complete "he couldn't see it?" should he have stopped it? did the commentators say "that's a goal he should have had?"

 

[ULF_55]

So what? Well we're here to criticize, analyze and whatever.

Like most here, I fully expect(ed) us to be a bad team with many flaws...but I did not expect AHL level quality goaltending on most nights. That's all.

Obviously, we're here to critique, and definitely call them out when they suck and praise them when they succeed.

It's easy to watch this team because expectations are so low, and the play of the goaltenders (both) is laughable.

Hey, in my area Leafs bashing is a thing of the past, it's more pity than anything now. Can't go much lower than pity!

 

[Cor]

But, to play devils advocate a bit here.

Isn't this season the best season to just see if Bernier or Reimer can work through the bad goals?

I mean, we aren't looking to win games anyway, so instead of jumping all over them, why don't we take a breathe, relax, and take them in stride.

I never understood why people jump all over every players mistakes, as if it's about to cost us game 7 of the cup finals. We're a horrible team, and 90% of these guys won't be here in two years.

What's the appeal of being all worked up, when these guys are here to lose games while our actual good young players develop. I don't see the appeal in bashing them for making expected mistakes, unless some people actually thought this would be a playoff team.

 

[Nithoniniel]

But, to play devils advocate a bit here.

Isn't this season the best season to just see if Bernier or Reimer can work through the bad goals?

I mean, we aren't looking to win games anyway, so instead of jumping all over them, why don't we take a breathe, relax, and take them in stride.

I never understood why people jump all over every players mistakes, as if it's about to cost us game 7 of the cup finals. We're a horrible team, and 90% of these guys won't be here in two years.

What's the appeal of being all worked up, when these guys are here to lose games while our actual good young players develop. I don't see the appeal in bashing them for making expected mistakes, unless some people actually thought this would be a playoff team.

Venting, is my guess.

 

[burpsalot]

that's how I've always seen it. it's not so much "Omg bad goal! Stone him! Stone him!!" but i think it's the timing and the situation.

All of the stones would have been flung past them.

 

[Jack Bauer]

But, to play devils advocate a bit here.

Isn't this season the best season to just see if Bernier or Reimer can work through the bad goals?

I mean, we aren't looking to win games anyway, so instead of jumping all over them, why don't we take a breathe, relax, and take them in stride.

I never understood why people jump all over every players mistakes, as if it's about to cost us game 7 of the cup finals. We're a horrible team, and 90% of these guys won't be here in two years.

What's the appeal of being all worked up, when these guys are here to lose games while our actual good young players develop. I don't see the appeal in bashing them for making expected mistakes, unless some people actually thought this would be a playoff team.

I think the disappointment comes from them killing any trade value they have with every bad goal.

1 of them running with the #1 job and playing well probably gets us something good in return.

 

[SprDaVE]

But, to play devils advocate a bit here.

Isn't this season the best season to just see if Bernier or Reimer can work through the bad goals?

I mean, we aren't looking to win games anyway, so instead of jumping all over them, why don't we take a breathe, relax, and take them in stride.

I never understood why people jump all over every players mistakes, as if it's about to cost us game 7 of the cup finals. We're a horrible team, and 90% of these guys won't be here in two years.

What's the appeal of being all worked up, when these guys are here to lose games while our actual good young players develop. I don't see the appeal in bashing them for making expected mistakes, unless some people actually thought this would be a playoff team.

Venting, is my guess.

Not really venting, just discussing. Some are arguing that goaltending hasn't been the issue. It's been bad and it should be pointed out. If we were in the Coyotes shoes, I don't think we'd have a problem praising the play of certain players, even if it was early on. Why are we not discussing when players are playing bad just because they were supposed to be bad? Meh.

PK and PP have been atrocious, probably the main reason why we only have 1 win. Offence has been average 5 on 5. Defence most nights has been average 5 on 5. But if BOTH of your special teams are in the bottom 3 of the league, you're not going to win many, if any, games.

Mix that with this goaltending... and here we are.

EDIT: my spelling game is failing me pretty hard this morning.

 

[Daisy Jane]

But, to play devils advocate a bit here.

Isn't this season the best season to just see if Bernier or Reimer can work through the bad goals?

I mean, we aren't looking to win games anyway, so instead of jumping all over them, why don't we take a breathe, relax, and take them in stride.

I never understood why people jump all over every players mistakes, as if it's about to cost us game 7 of the cup finals.

We're a horrible team, and 90% of these guys won't be here in two years.

I would think so.
i think there are a few things here

A: Babcock wants to settle this whole "whose the goalie" debate. (and I think he wants to have some wins etc going on - there was this excellent twitter quote that someone said, "Can someone in the media tell Babcock it's okay that we're losing #Matthews") I think as much as he wants to install the whole "this is how we play." - he wants to know he has a goalie he can trust.

(I would figure he doesn't mind losing due to lack of goals - he was prepared for that. he wasn't prepared to lose due to poor goaltending. )

B: i don't (well, i would hope) people aren't jumping on people as if it cost us the cup in game seven - but at the same time, i'd argue it is more of who is buying into the system, who we can depend on (some people are thinking about trading value). if someone's being dumbs on the ice, i think we can still discuss (debate/fight /mudsling ) why that is so.

C: I think we're all trying to figure out who in the 10% (excluding Rielly), is going to stay. we all have our horses.

and for me if they can't through the bad goals, hey. we get to wonder who we get to draft (or maybe trade for, but i'm not holding my breath on the latter).

 

[Nithoniniel]

Not really venting, just discussing. Some are arguing that goaltending hasn't been the issue. It's been bad and it should be pointed out. If we were in the Coyotes shoes, I don't think we'd have a problem praising the play of certain players, even if it was early on. Why are we not discussing when players are playing bad just because they were supposed to be bad? Meh.

PK and PP have been atrocious, probably the main reason why we only have 1 win. Offence has been average 5 on 5. Defence most nights has been average 5 on 5. But if BOTH of your special teams are in the bottom 3 of the league, you're not going to win many, if any, games.

Mix that with this goaltending... and here we are.

EDIT: my spelling game is failing me pretty hard this morning.

Been there so many times. Sometimes I write something and then read it after posting and it's just completely illiterate. I might as well have been speaking Wookie.

Anyway, a lot of people for sure are discussing. I didn't take that post as directed towards those however. Of course, for example, our goaltenders deserve criticism and a discussion should be had about them and their lacking performance. There are just way too many people who want to mock and discard players as soon as they play bad though, and that's just venting in my opinion.

 

[ULF_55]

But, to play devils advocate a bit here.

Isn't this season the best season to just see if Bernier or Reimer can work through the bad goals?

I mean, we aren't looking to win games anyway, so instead of jumping all over them, why don't we take a breathe, relax, and take them in stride.

I never understood why people jump all over every players mistakes, as if it's about to cost us game 7 of the cup finals. We're a horrible team, and 90% of these guys won't be here in two years.

What's the appeal of being all worked up, when these guys are here to lose games while our actual good young players develop. I don't see the appeal in bashing them for making expected mistakes, unless some people actually thought this would be a playoff team.

I'm not sure everyone is worked up about how crappy the goalies are.

Calling the goalies crappy is just based on their play.

Both goalies are 27, and yes some goalies don't become solid NHLers before they're 28, but how often is that because of competition and how often is that because they just aren't talented enough?

I hope no one is worked up over this squad!


And hey we could be Flames fans with false expectations.

 

[Budsfan]

We have a weak team and were missing three key players Bozak, Spaling and Gardiner, we can't have players like these three, missing from the line-up at one time, it leaves too many holes and we don't have the players able to pick up the slack.

Plus our Goal tending has been so, so and they have the same faults as last year.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Been there so many times. Sometimes I write something and then read it after posting and it's just completely illiterate. I might as well have been speaking Wookie.

Anyway, a lot of people for sure are discussing. I didn't take that post as directed towards those however. Of course, for example, our goaltenders deserve criticism and a discussion should be had about them and their lacking performance. There are just way too many people who want to mock and discard players as soon as they play bad though, and that's just venting in my opinion.

i'm sure Ice Wookie would still understand you

 

[LeafsMonster]

I thought we're thinking too much about the goaltending. In the beginning of the season a lot of great goalies suck. It takes them a while to adjust to the new defensive system, new players, and generally goalies need time to find their groove. Our goalies are trying to do too much, probably stemming from a distrust of our defense and defensive game, which they've learned to do in the last few years. Cut them some slack. Very early in the season, I think they will both be better with more games and more familiarity with the players and the system

 

[Mess]

Reimer made 20 saves and posted .833 sv%.

Hard to win any game in the NHL.

 

[Trapper]

Toronto Maple Leafs head coach Mike Babcock addresses the media following Toronto's 4-3 loss to Arizona on Monday night.

[NHL]857353[/NHL]

It appears Holland's time is coming to an end.
When healthy it looks like Kadri/Bozak/Spaling/Froese-Arcobello will be used by Babcock. (From the comments). Babs doesn't seem impressed in the least with Holland.