Confirmed with Link: Leafs trade Beck, Finn, Gibson, Nilsson and Verhaeghe for Grabner

[NotSince67*]

Likely two of the PTOs go unsigned at a minimum, and I think Joly is the only CHLer to get an ELC.

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I think there's too much focus on what's the future return for Grabner. I think the real reason Grabner was brought in was this:

With the future of the top six presumably resting with Nylander, Kadri, Marner, and seeing how Brown, Kapinen and Leivo all develop, when they all come up they need to be insulated. It would make no sense to pretty much put the success of the club offensively on their shoulders as rookies. They need established veterans to help shoulder the load. I think the real reason behind Grabner is it's a relatively low-risk (given the assets required to acquire him) to see if he can finally find a home. No one can deny he's had some success in the past, and that he can play a top 6 role. But the truth is he hasn't fit anywhere well enough to stay.

I think the Leafs are taking a flyer on a guy who's got skill and talent and seeing if he'll fit. They've got a void in talent in the top six on wing, and Grabner can definitely come in and try to finally stick with a club and show well for himself.

 

[burpsalot]

I find it funny that you accuse me of wishful thinking that teams would like a mediocre prospect instead of a pick with a 10% chance of becoming a mediocre prospect, and then turn around and say with certainty that the guys that can't get a league minimum contract right now will for sure get us picks at the TDL.

I love the direction we are going. I'm completely confident in our management group so far. I think this was a badly executed trade. Again, it's not that clearing up contract space is a bad goal. We just got bad value back.



You are missing a key part there. The poster I responded to basically said that Beck got us Grabner in terms of value, which means that the 4 prospects were dumped just to get rid of their spots. That would be bad asset management, as I think we can at least get a couple of late round picks for them. Not saying those are extremely valuable, but they are sure better than just handing decent prospects away. And if we only wanted to dump prospects, we have worse ones to start with.

In my view, this is just like the Kessel trade. A bad trade, but one that had to be made. Except this time it was about contract space, rather than getting rid of a specific player.

Kind of where I feel with this deal. I wasn't overly thrilled with the prospects we let go, not overly thrilled with Grabner & his injuries. I would have been content with keeping Beck.

I knew we had to get some contract space & I'm fine with the players that departed. I guess getting rid of the contracts became more important than getting even a late draft pick.



Who knows, maybe Lamoriello has a handshake future, "I owe ya one", with the Islanders.

In the end, the Leafs made the deal because they think they could do better with those contract spots.

 

[burpsalot]

I think its safe to say Lou has more moves to come. Read into it what you may. I stand by what I said earlier. Lou wants to make this team better.

Going out on a limb here.

 

[JeffNYI]

Isles fan coming in peace..

Don't know enough to speculate on Toronto's motives for making this deal, but can sure chip in on ours..

Grabner was in the dog house on Long Island.. the main beat reporter, Arthur Staple, even wrote last season that Grabner would not be an Islander to begin the 2015-16 season.. so obviously the team wanted him gone..

Even if that wasn't the case, considering in his $5M salary and the fact he would be used sparingly he was totally expendable from our team's perspective..

I really think *WE* would have given him up for a 7th because we were done with him.. but I also think he can still play in the NHL.. I have no doubt.. So talent-wise, Toronto clearly wins the trade..

But since we were desperate to trade his salary, the deal makes sense for us too.. it wasn't a hockey trade from our perspective, it was a financial trade that makes total sense for our situation and where Grabner stood with our organization..

 

[theIceWookie]

I may be in the minority here I think Verhaeghe could be a good player...I think he has a higher upside than Gauthier but we'll see.

That is not a minority opinion lol.

 

[redbull]

To echo JeffNYI's comment on Grabner, I've also seen all his games as an Islander and he's a tough player to match up with linemates. He's got a very distinct playing style where he kinda hovers and can blast into open ice faster than any skater I've seen - very opportunistic player and great on the PK. He's been much more physical and has tried to play more structured but it's not his game and the injuries (I believe two hernia operations) have hurt his explosiveness, which dramatically impacts his threat level.

On the plus side, he's on the last year of his deal and playing under Babcock might really help him simplify his game. If he can stay healthy, he has the talent to lead the (current) leafs in goals (I know, not saying much). He could fetch something at the deadline too.

I believe the Leaf motivation was clearly contracts and flexibility. They didn't give up any top prospect but a few "good" ones that may be NHL players at SOME point, unlikely in the next year or two. I'd seen all of them play live in either the rookie tournament in London or with the Marlies and none were impressive - not for more than a shift or two.

But they are all young and some MAY stick but I doubt even the Islanders see this as an NHL roster move. This strengthens their horrible Bridgeport team which should help develop their other young prospects - hopefully - in a year or two. Maybe.

I like the move for both teams. I'm also a fan of both teams.

I LOVE Babcock in Toronto and can't get enough of how he handles the media, answers questions, and I love Lou and every move Shanahan's made thus far. This should be a fascinating season in Toronto.

 

[ULF_55]

Isles fan coming in peace..

Don't know enough to speculate on Toronto's motives for making this deal, but can sure chip in on ours..

Grabner was in the dog house on Long Island.. the main beat reporter, Arthur Staple, even wrote last season that Grabner would not be an Islander to begin the 2015-16 season.. so obviously the team wanted him gone..

Even if that wasn't the case, considering in his $5M salary and the fact he would be used sparingly he was totally expendable from our team's perspective..

I really think *WE* would have given him up for a 7th because we were done with him.. but I also think he can still play in the NHL.. I have no doubt.. So talent-wise, Toronto clearly wins the trade..

But since we were desperate to trade his salary, the deal makes sense for us too.. it wasn't a hockey trade from our perspective, it was a financial trade that makes total sense for our situation and where Grabner stood with our organization..

I agree, it was a financial deal from the Islanders and contract mess from the Leafs.

It wasn't a hockey trade it was a financial/contractual transaction from both teams.

Islanders might get a player out of that gaggle and the Leafs don't care if Grabner works out or not.

 

[agropop]

Don't think we gave up, or received anything of value, what we do with the contract spots will be more interesting

 

[CalgaryLeaf*]

I agree, it was a financial deal from the Islanders and contract mess from the Leafs.

It wasn't a hockey trade it was a financial/contractual transaction from both teams.

Islanders might get a player out of that gaggle and the Leafs don't care if Grabner works out or not.

That's not true...The Leafs would love for Grabner to become an asset so they can trade him for a pick at the deadline...That's what rebuilding teams do.

 

[showtime8]

To echo JeffNYI's comment on Grabner, I've also seen all his games as an Islander and he's a tough player to match up with linemates. He's got a very distinct playing style where he kinda hovers and can blast into open ice faster than any skater I've seen - very opportunistic player and great on the PK. He's been much more physical and has tried to play more structured but it's not his game and the injuries (I believe two hernia operations) have hurt his explosiveness, which dramatically impacts his threat level.

On the plus side, he's on the last year of his deal and playing under Babcock might really help him simplify his game. If he can stay healthy, he has the talent to lead the (current) leafs in goals (I know, not saying much). He could fetch something at the deadline too.

I believe the Leaf motivation was clearly contracts and flexibility. They didn't give up any top prospect but a few "good" ones that may be NHL players at SOME point, unlikely in the next year or two. I'd seen all of them play live in either the rookie tournament in London or with the Marlies and none were impressive - not for more than a shift or two.

But they are all young and some MAY stick but I doubt even the Islanders see this as an NHL roster move. This strengthens their horrible Bridgeport team which should help develop their other young prospects - hopefully - in a year or two. Maybe.

I like the move for both teams. I'm also a fan of both teams.

I LOVE Babcock in Toronto and can't get enough of how he handles the media, answers questions, and I love Lou and every move Shanahan's made thus far. This should be a fascinating season in Toronto.

Interesting to see how much those surgeries have on his explosiveness.

I remember him burning the Leafs for a couple shorthanded goals and they were all created by his speed after chipping and chasing.

He reminds me of what Mason Raymond did. Extremely fast, but where do you play him? He's not skilled enough to be in the top 3 and he could make the Leafs current top 6 (not saying much), but he's generally in the bottom 6. It's just a tough time matching him up with the right linemates and playing him to his strengths.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

? Grabner for a 1st and prospect at the deadline ….?

That's his high end, but not out of the realm of possibility. I would more say, if he has a decent comeback season, he can get a Winnik return. 2nd + 4th is still pretty good for what we gave up.

So if Grabner was really worth a 1st, why wouldn't the Islanders just trade him for a 1st then?

why would the isles even trade him for a 1st

after all the isles would be one of those playoff teams wanting to add depth

well unless, you know, they might have inside, first hand information and knowledge that grabner is nothing but a injury prone, has been, cap dump

So, the Islanders would rather have our lousy B level prospects (according to us) rather than trade for a 1st or a 2nd + 4th???

And, the fact that Grabner was dumped for our B level prospects is a pretty good indication of what value the Islanders place on Grabner.

 

[redbull]

Interesting to see how much those surgeries have on his explosiveness.

I remember him burning the Leafs for a couple shorthanded goals and they were all created by his speed after chipping and chasing.

He reminds me of what Mason Raymond did. Extremely fast, but where do you play him? He's not skilled enough to be in the top 3 and he could make the Leafs current top 6 (not saying much), but he's generally in the bottom 6. It's just a tough time matching him up with the right linemates and playing him to his strengths.

I would play him on the 3rd line with guys like Komarov and Holland - responsible defensively and allow Grabs to exploit dmen. If he's anywhere close to his top speed and quickness then this could be a solid deal for the Leafs.

I doubt the Leafs regret any of the players sent away. Though you never know who can develop into what.

Smart of them to keep a guy like Leivo or Percy or Timashov or Shoshnikov and even guys like Joly (unsigned), Dzierkals and Leipsic who are much better prospects and still a few years away.

Great moves by both GMs!

I like Verhaeghe the most. From the rookie games anyway.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

So, the Islanders would rather have our lousy B level prospects (according to us) rather than trade for a 1st or a 2nd + 4th???

And, the fact that Grabner was dumped for our B level prospects is a pretty good indication of what value the Islanders place on Grabner.

They were done with him. It was just like the Kessel deal. They wanted him gone, and were willing to get rid of him for whatever anyone would give for him. In fact, we probably gave them a lot more than they were asking for in terms of value.

We are giving him a chance to redeem himself and get back to that type of value. The Islanders have not and would not give him that chance, so they are just glad to get his cap space and roster spot back while getting good value at the same time. It's far from a guarantee, but if he does have decent turn around, he could reach that level (Winnik level) of value quite easily.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Going out on a limb here.

that's kind of lamoriello's job here.making the team better

 

[Beetlebum*]

I can't think of one trade Lou has ever lost, so I suspect this will be another winner.

 

[New User Name]

I hope I'm wrong but I have a feeling trading Verhaeghe will come back to haunt us.

 

[Ovate]

So, the Islanders would rather have our lousy B level prospects (according to us) rather than trade for a 1st or a 2nd + 4th???

And, the fact that Grabner was dumped for our B level prospects is a pretty good indication of what value the Islanders place on Grabner.

Did you not read SeaOfBlue's comment at all? They immediately prefaced that a Winnik like return would have to be preceded by a bounceback year?

It's also a fact that players trade for more at the deadline than they do in the offseason, as options are more limited and GMs are more sure of the direction in which they want to take their team.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

They were done with him. It was just like the Kessel deal. They wanted him gone, and were willing to get rid of him for whatever anyone would give for him. In fact, we probably gave them a lot more than they were asking for in terms of value.

We are giving him a chance to redeem himself and get back to that type of value. The Islanders have not and would not give him that chance, so they are just glad to get his cap space and roster spot back while getting good value at the same time. It's far from a guarantee, but if he does have decent turn around, he could reach that level (Winnik level) of value quite easily.

So, assuming that the assessment that Grabner is worth a 1st, or a 2nd & a 4th is accurate, then could they not dump him for let's say just a 2nd (which is obviously or ostensibly below market value) and of course reduce their cap hit? Would this not be preferable than acquiring our low end B prospects who will never make it?

 

[Gabriel426]

Maybe only the Leafs is willing to pay the 5mil salary and 3mil cap hit of Grabner, but when TDL comes, Leafs might choose to take on the remainder of the salary of Grabner and just let him play on a contender for free in exchange for their 1st rounder or which ever picks they are willing to trade for.

Why can't Islander do the same, mainly bc they rather have a 3mil cap space to sign player/s that they think fit their system better than Grabner.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Maybe only the Leafs is willing to pay the 5mil salary and 3mil cap hit of Grabner, but when TDL comes, Leafs might choose to take on the remainder of the salary of Grabner and just let him play on a contender for free in exchange for their 1st rounder or which ever picks they are willing to trade for.

Why can't Islander do the same, mainly bc they rather have a 3mil cap space to sign player/s that they think fit their system better than Grabner.

Still doesn't answer the question why the Islanders would take a lower than market return along the lines I outlined above (#518) now plus save the cap space. Something seems awry.

 

[Gabriel426]

Like I said, maybe Leafs is the only team that is willing to pay Grabner full salary at this moment.

 

[dubey]

I find it funny that you accuse me of wishful thinking that teams would like a mediocre prospect instead of a pick with a 10% chance of becoming a mediocre prospect, and then turn around and say with certainty that the guys that can't get a league minimum contract right now will for sure get us picks at the TDL.

I love the direction we are going. I'm completely confident in our management group so far. I think this was a badly executed trade. Again, it's not that clearing up contract space is a bad goal. We just got bad value back.



You are missing a key part there. The poster I responded to basically said that Beck got us Grabner in terms of value, which means that the 4 prospects were dumped just to get rid of their spots. That would be bad asset management, as I think we can at least get a couple of late round picks for them. Not saying those are extremely valuable, but they are sure better than just handing decent prospects away. And if we only wanted to dump prospects, we have worse ones to start with.

In my view, this is just like the Kessel trade. A bad trade, but one that had to be made. Except this time it was about contract space, rather than getting rid of a specific player.

lol @ bad value

These players haven't proven anything how could they have any value?

If the Leafs could have traded these players for picks they would have. The problem is every team has disposable prospects and plenty of them. Just because the Leafs drafted them doesn't make them special. I think that's the hardest thing for people to wrap their head around.

 

[PuckMagi]

So, assuming that the assessment that Grabner is worth a 1st, or a 2nd & a 4th is accurate, then could they not dump him for let's say just a 2nd (which is obviously or ostensibly below market value) and of course reduce their cap hit? Would this not be preferable than acquiring our low end B prospects who will never make it?

He's not worth that right now. He could be worth that at the trade deadline.

Right now, he costs a team $3 mil in cap space and $5 mil in salary.

If the Leafs trade him at the deadline, the team that gets him on pays him a fraction of his salary and only counts for a fraction of his cap hit. The Leafs can also retain on him to make him even cheaper if necessary.

There is also a lot less risk at the deadline. He'll have played all year with the Leafs so the team will know what they're getting. At this point, it's a bit of a gamble to trade for him now... by the deadline, the other teams will have a better idea about the type of player they're getting.

And maybe there are teams that don't think that they need him right now because most teams have a fully healthy roster. If there are injuries throughout the year, he all of a sudden becomes more desirable. The other team also have a better idea of how good their draft position will be by the deadline. No one wants to trade a 1st right now because maybe something crazy happens and their team sucks and doesn't make the playoffs. By deadline time, they'll be pretty certain that maybe they're picking between 25 - 30 and don't mind trading a 1st.

Also, if you trade for him now and he gets injured, you're screwed. You traded some good assets and you've got an injured player or a crappy player and now you've got to go find someone else. If you trade for him at the deadline, you'll know that you're getting a healthy player who is producing.

Obviously if he gets injured or doesn't play well for the Leafs this year, then no one will want him at the deadline... but if he stays healthy and plays well, we should be able to flip him for a much better return than we gave up. Maybe we can get a 1st or a 2nd for him... who knows.... that depends on how he plays. But no one is going to make that trade right now for him.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

that's kind of lamoriello's job here.making the team better

I thought the Shanaplan was to be bad when Dubas was GM and draft high for year 2016. Remember the Marner-Matthews talk?

Well Babcock and Lou certainly have changed that equation haven't they?

 

[burpsalot]

I thought the Shanaplan was to be bad when Dubas was GM and draft high for year 2016. Remember the Marner-Matthews talk?

Well Babcock and Lou certainly have changed that equation haven't they?

You thought wrong.