SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
- 35,591
- 16,777
What would we give them? They need RW's in their pool, and we've got a ton. Panik, Herzog and Cameranesi, since quantity of quality seems to be the types of deals we are doing now
Confirmed with Link: Leafs trade Beck, Finn, Gibson, Nilsson and Verhaeghe for Grabner
- Thread starter SprDaVE
- Start date
- Status
What would we give them? They need RW's in their pool, and we've got a ton. Panik, Herzog and Cameranesi, since quantity of quality seems to be the types of deals we are doing now
theIceWookie
#LeafHysteriaAlert
Nithoniniel
Registered User
So what you are saying is that we gave up four prospects for nothing? In no way is that good.
Sure it opens up contract spots that we can use on players that we hope might give us more assets at TDL, but if we wanted to simply dump these players I'm sure there are teams that would rather have Verhaeghe or Gibson than a 5th-7th round pick.
Bluelines
Python FTW!
- Nov 17, 2013
- 12,349
- 4,559
Highlander23
Registered User
What would we give them? They need RW's in their pool, and we've got a ton. Panik, Herzog and Cameranesi, since quantity of quality seems to be the types of deals we are doing now
He has given signs that he will not sign with Nashville, so he could become a FA. Since our ties with his family, we might have a good chance to sign him
HoweHullOrr
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
- 12,058
- 2,539
HoweHullOrr
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
- 12,058
- 2,539
I doubt any teams would consider trading for any of them(beside Beck) for even a 7th rounder. It is pure wishful thinking bc every other teams have more than enough young prospects that is the level of those players.
Grabner, and the other PTOs will make the Leafs and be traded for more picks come TDL.
Can't see why this is not a good deal for the Leafs. The only complain I have is that Leafs could have gotten a 4th rounder or so more bc it clears 3mil Cap space for the Islanders.
That's before Hunter.
Honestly, Leafs got enough #4 D man in the system. Jake and Marincin are already playing in the Leafs. Percy,Harrington and Dermott are in the system.
Nith, really? a 5th-7th? In terms of utility, a late round pick is nothing more than trying to catch lightning in a bottle. I hope you're not saying the value returned in a couple late round picks is better than Grabner.
------
I really don't get all the criticisms this move is getting, because:
1) Lets's face it folks, this is a VERY minor deal. Look at the players that are involved. At this point we dealt 5 minor leaguers, none of which are close to the NHL, for a NHL player who's been unable to find a home. (Edit: okay, Taylor Beck is a 24 y/o fringe NHLer)
2) I get that people are upset that prospects were traded but that's a really stupid way of evaluating it. A position in which any prospect traded is a poor deal or a bad direction by management is examining things without looking at the context of the situation.
2a) Freeing up contract spaces is vital. Doing so allows the leafs to make deals such as the one we saw for Kessel in which an NHL player is traded for prospects and the amount of contracts coming back is more than what's going out. Before today, this was not possible. It allows them to make waiver claims to try to target young players who have not been able to secure jobs such as Jakob Markstrom last year, Jarred Tinordi this year. At one point Joe Colborne was very close to be another team's waiver pick-up as was Peter Holland. Flexibility to add players to the system is critical much in the way having available cap space is
2b) These prospects we traded weren't in a good position to succeed with the Leafs. Even if they were to make the NHL, it's unlikely they would have in the Leafs organization. Simply put, Verhaeghe and Finn are not going to get the playing time and roles they need to develop. Both are on the fringe of not being in the AHL and if they do playing in small roles. This situation is far from ideal. Nilsson is behind guys like Percy, Granberg, Loov (IMO), and Dermott (again, IMO) to an extent, and the Leafs are already carrying more NHL D-men than they can ice. Phaneuf is here long term as is Gardiner and Reilly and you start to see that his long term ability to make the Leafs is unlikely. Gibson is also stuck behind Reimer and Bernier and being squeezed by Bibeau and Sparks and I believe they'd like to free playing time at the AHL level for those two.
2c) These prospects we traded, specifically Finn, Gibson,Verhaeghe and Nilsson aren't highly regarded and aren't exactly valuable commodities. While part of that is opinion, you have to realize these guys have all underperformed to varying degrees since being drafted. There's nothing to say that these guys won't be players but at some point decisions have to be made whether or not prospects fit into your llong term picture and whether or not you still have the same belief in them with two more years or experience and hindsight.
Honestly, Alex Steen, Jimmy Hayes and Jiri Tlusty are the only prospects we've flat given up on that have turned out to be bad ideas. Every one else has busted or bounced around before finding it. (Chris DiDominico, Keith Aulie, Carter Ashton, Philippe Paradis, Viktor Stalberg, Greg Pateryn, Jesse Blacker, Anton Stralman, I'm sure there's more)
And no, Tukka Rask was never given up on, it was needed to get a deal done and was a perceived surplus at the time with Pogge.
Nithoniniel
Registered User
I find it funny that you accuse me of wishful thinking that teams would like a mediocre prospect instead of a pick with a 10% chance of becoming a mediocre prospect, and then turn around and say with certainty that the guys that can't get a league minimum contract right now will for sure get us picks at the TDL.
I love the direction we are going. I'm completely confident in our management group so far. I think this was a badly executed trade. Again, it's not that clearing up contract space is a bad goal. We just got bad value back.
You are missing a key part there. The poster I responded to basically said that Beck got us Grabner in terms of value, which means that the 4 prospects were dumped just to get rid of their spots. That would be bad asset management, as I think we can at least get a couple of late round picks for them. Not saying those are extremely valuable, but they are sure better than just handing decent prospects away. And if we only wanted to dump prospects, we have worse ones to start with.
In my view, this is just like the Kessel trade. A bad trade, but one that had to be made. Except this time it was about contract space, rather than getting rid of a specific player.
Last edited:
Diff is, these PTOs and Grabner have a much better chance in netting picks for the Leafs than say Finn and Gibson. Didn't Jokinen netted the Leafs a 6th rounder last year. And I doubt Grabner and Boyes will play worst than Jokinen did last year barring injuries.
Nithoniniel
Registered User
And plenty of other players on 1 year deal or who came into camp with PTOs couldn't find a market. It's absolutely not a sure thing, especially not since only a few of our short-term deals will actually be in a position to succeed.
HoweHullOrr
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
- 12,058
- 2,539
agreed. I didn't really like any of the players we traded.
i'm happy with this deal
IMO, I think you over value what Beck, Gibson, Nilsson, Verhergerberger, and Finn are worth.
Finn - Since being drafted has struggled at the professional level. Was demoted to the ECHL and was not impactful when called back up to the AHL. More significantly has a long history of durability issues, and even worse, is related to Carlo Coliacovo, which makes injury a sure bet
Verhaeghe - Has yet to jump to pro, BUT, is presumably behind Nylander, Gauthier (for sure those two) and guys like Rupert, Carrick. Is in difficult to make the Marlies. Struggled in the absence of Perlini, and as a 19 y/o 3rd round pick in the OHL, is highly concerning he wasn't talented enough to create without Perlini given he's touted for his offensive creativity and hockey IQ.
Nilsson - Low upside defensive defenseman who's pretty much projecting to be a bottom pairing defenseman. Comparables to Leafs prospects of the past would be Jay Harrison, Phil Oreskovich, Korbinian Holzer, Andrew MacWilliam. Value here is low, and him toiling in the minors for significant time is likely, and his NHL niche is pretty much not far off from the role Mark Fraser/Holzer would play.
Gibson - Not a bad prospect, but checkered past. Was non-tendered by LA after being drafted in the second round. Was in a year-long competition with Bibeau which forced Sparks to the ECHL. He has upside but goaltending prospects don't excatly have value and given his pedigree, he's not a commodity.
Beck - Roster filler 4th liner, close to a finished product. Limited value. Was traded for Jamie Devane a few months ago.
SeaOfBlue
The Passion That Unites Us All
- Aug 1, 2013
- 35,591
- 16,777
That's his high end, but not out of the realm of possibility. I would more say, if he has a decent comeback season, he can get a Winnik return. 2nd + 4th is still pretty good for what we gave up.
I don't think this deal makes any sense whatsoever as a standalone move. Therefore, I hope there are moves to come that make use of the freed up space, whether they are signings, trades, or whatever.
Trading a group of prospects for a player we don't need doesn't make sense to me. Yes, none of the prospects are among our top prospects, but it's we're getting back a guy who has struggled and may or may not net us something of any real value. I don't think they're getting him just for a draft pick at the deadline; while that would be great, it's a big gamble and assumption to assume you will get a lot for Grabner then.
I also don't understand why you would need to make a move now to sign theoretical PTOs, unless you already think you want to sign them.
I just don't see any reason to give up on these guys now. If they don't work out, they don't work out, but it's early to say that for most of them. Just one of them working out could be as valuable as whatever this theoretical value is we would get for Grabner. And Grabner doesn't seem like the type of player a 'rebuilding' team should be looking for.
As I said at the start, we'll see what kind of moves follow. It's a strange trade.
Trading a group of prospects for a player we don't need doesn't make sense to me. Yes, none of the prospects are among our top prospects, but it's we're getting back a guy who has struggled and may or may not net us something of any real value. I don't think they're getting him just for a draft pick at the deadline; while that would be great, it's a big gamble and assumption to assume you will get a lot for Grabner then.
I also don't understand why you would need to make a move now to sign theoretical PTOs, unless you already think you want to sign them.
I just don't see any reason to give up on these guys now. If they don't work out, they don't work out, but it's early to say that for most of them. Just one of them working out could be as valuable as whatever this theoretical value is we would get for Grabner. And Grabner doesn't seem like the type of player a 'rebuilding' team should be looking for.
As I said at the start, we'll see what kind of moves follow. It's a strange trade.
Beleafer4
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2010
- 4,176
- 55
Out-----> In
Beck-----> Grabner
Gibson-----> Glencross
Nilsson-----> Boyes
Verhaeghe-----> Setogouchi
Finn-----> Brouillard/Joly
With the exception of the Verhaeghe-Setogouchi comp, I think each asset on the right is more valuable to any potential team (and can return more) come the deadline. You can pretty much label the right side the upgraded side. And we wouldn't be able to add these assets unless we unloaded the 4 prospects from before.
And each prospect returning a 5th/7th? Maybe. Broll/Ashton were Nilsson/Verhaeghe/Gibson level prospects and they returned a 7th round pick together.
Last edited:
HoweHullOrr
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2013
- 12,058
- 2,539
So if Grabner was really worth a 1st, why wouldn't the Islanders just trade him for a 1st then?
why would the isles even trade him for a 1rst
afterall the isles would be one of those playoff teams wanting to add depth
well unless, you know, they might have inside, first hand information and knowledge that grabner is nothing but a injury prone, has been, cap dump
We're not going to fill up every one of those player slots. We'll be keeping a couple open to pick up waiver players and NCAA/KHL signings later in the year.
I see two distinct trades going on here. There's the Leafs prospects for Grabner, which has to be judged based on how you evaluate all the parts. Leafs definitely got the best player, and I'm usually happy with a quantity for quality trade. Then there's the money for contract slots trade. By paying $5M, Leafs dumped four contracts. Clear net positive, as we have a lot of money but few contracts.
I see two distinct trades going on here. There's the Leafs prospects for Grabner, which has to be judged based on how you evaluate all the parts. Leafs definitely got the best player, and I'm usually happy with a quantity for quality trade. Then there's the money for contract slots trade. By paying $5M, Leafs dumped four contracts. Clear net positive, as we have a lot of money but few contracts.
I may be in the minority here I think Verhaeghe could be a good player...I think he has a higher upside than Gauthier but we'll see.
- Status
