Confirmed with Link: Leafs trade Beck, Finn, Gibson, Nilsson and Verhaeghe for Grabner

[Jack Bauer]

Here you bring some good arguments. I could start buying that these were the prospects that needed to go. I'm not sure I do, as with their dedication to ECHL I would think Verhaeghe would go there to develop for a year while AHL is full, but I see a point.

But then we give them up plus Beck for a guy that the last two seasons are barely an upgrade on him. Not very impressive.

I understand a part of the reason is that Islanders needed Grabner gone. That should have been an opportunity to use though, yet the value isn't on our side.



I do not agree. At all. Especially when one of the players included in the deal is an NHL player as well.



Not easy of course. But that line could be said about every deal that gets done. If Washington couldn't get better than Erat for Forsberg, wouldn't they have done it? Well sure, doesn't change the fact that the trade was awful.

Beck is a bottom 6 guy and Grabner should be a top 6 or 9. They play different games. Hard to compare but clearly both hold little value.

If you really think we're going to use the ECHL for NHL development you're completely missing the boat on what the plan in there.

The ECHL will be used for the Marlies development. If a prospect of ours ends up on the ECHL team then he's really not in the Leafs long term plans. If they end up here...great...but the ECHL will never be used like that because no NHL team has a prospect pool that deep.

To argue that prospects not in our top 10 are worth more then 1 NHL player is hfboard logic that is just severely flawed. How often do teams 15th best prospects make an NHL impact? At best they're injury call ups. Our goal is for Grabner to score 15 and turn him into a 3rd and 5th that to a Mark Hunter could maybe be a future top 4 NHL defenceman or starting goaltender in 5 years.

None of what we traded today had that upside. But it certainly opens up space in the organization for others now and in the future who could have higher upside then anyone we moved today.

We're still setting the table here. Lots of moves yet to come and not every trade is about getting maximum value for every asset, sometimes it's about creating space or putting people in the way of others to create competition. We accomplished both of those with this deal as we had to move contracts and the ones we moved were on the bottom tier of our 50.

 

[Cor]

Isles fan, here in peace for a little of the opposite view. Grabner does not cycle well enough to be on anyone's first line, his speed makes him a one man show. He would be better suited to pull up than follow through with his breakaways, the feet are quicker than the hands. Above average shot, good on the PK, popular guy with the fans and in the locker room.
I did not figure any of the guys we got would be special, it reminds me of our trade for Ryan Smyth in that regard.
Peace.

His competition is PA Parenteau, and Richard Panik.

We aren't good enough to not put him there

 

[Jack Bauer]

Average prospects who have proven very little for a proven NHLer with speed to burn?....a no-brainer. Leafs Nation never ceases to amaze, falls in love with their prospects just because they are there's. The key to a rebuild is not to have quantity of prospects, but quality of prospects. Looking at the most recent Rookie Tournament and play from last year, we've lost prospects who are meh. The most impressive prospects, were Joly, Brouillard, Nylander, Kapanen, Marner, Dermot, etc.

Smartest comment in the entire thread.

Because they're ours we're supposed to believe they're more then what they are. I don't buy into that.

 

[Bad Goalie]

As an outsider looking in, am I the only guy who sees what I see happening here?

I see one guy worrying that Lou is trying to create a win now team at the expense of young prospects. Another isn't thrilled about the value in return. Many feel losing 5 decent prospects will hurt the future.

It is correct. Lou is trying to create a win now team, but with mercenaries filling all the roster spots that are not held by current Leafs who are being given the chance to retain a spot on the future roster. What's wrong with management sending out the message we expect you to play hard our way every game as that is the new Leafs way? Anything less than your best played within our system is unacceptable. The mercenaries, all on 1 year deals, can be traded at the TDL or later. They can be allowed to just walk UFA if need be. Point is they are place holders for the guys this management team has targeted for the future.

Who are the targeted players? They are being groomed on the farm en masse. The prospects traded away will be replaced by even better ones acquired by draft or trade in deals for the mercenaries. In 3-4 years the cream of the Toronto Marlies, combined with the current holdovers like Gardiner and Kadri, and a couple of top UFAs will be the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Every current Leaf and every current prospect who fails to live up to the construct will be gone. They are carefully targeting the undrafted pool as well as the young ones in the league, minors, and Europe for just the right guys to be added to the current mix. They have no time to see if guys drafted 2-3 years ago might make it. They'll take the risk that goes with moving them for guys with higher potential. Guys that progress like Nylander and others already doing so with the Marlies will continue to be groomed.

There is a master plan and every member of the Leafs' management, scouting, coaching team is on the same page. Fans may have a hard time understanding some of the moves. Some moves will be embraced, others questioned, and some even considered mad, but they will march forward. Toronto has a cohort of some of the finest minds in the world of hockey. They won't do anything without a reason, but some of their moves may be setting up another move perhaps as much as 2 years down the road. They have said repeatedly this will be a long haul and not without pain. Is everyone listening?

I'm not a Leafs fan, but the future of the Toronto Maple Leafs may just be very frightening to the rest of the NHL. Patience will be needed by the fan base, but you are eventually in for a very happy future that will make that wait well worth while.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Beck is a bottom 6 guy and Grabner should be a top 6 or 9. They play different games. Hard to compare but clearly both hold little value.

If you really think we're going to use the ECHL for NHL development you're completely missing the boat on what the plan in there.

The ECHL will be used for the Marlies development. If a prospect of ours ends up on the ECHL team then he's really not in the Leafs long term plans. If they end up here...great...but the ECHL will never be used like that because no NHL team has a prospect pool that deep.

To argue that prospects not in our top 10 are worth more then 1 NHL player is hfboard logic that is just severely flawed. How often do teams 15th best prospects make an NHL impact? At best they're injury call ups. Our goal is for Grabner to score 15 and turn him into a 3rd and 5th that to a Mark Hunter could maybe be a future top 4 NHL defenceman or starting goaltender in 5 years.

None of what we traded today had that upside. But it certainly opens up space in the organization for others now and in the future who could have higher upside then anyone we moved today.

We're still setting the table here. Lots of moves yet to come and not every trade is about getting maximum value for every asset, sometimes it's about creating space or putting people in the way of others to create competition. We accomplished both of those with this deal as we had to move contracts and the ones we moved were on the bottom tier of our 50.

I'd like to see a link of reference to the bolded. All I've seen is management mentioning several times that ECHL will be an integral part of development.

As for the rest. With your line of thinking, we got rid of Strålman. Your line of thinking has been a weakness in this organization for a very long time, giving up on prospects early and often.

You bring some good points but I can't help feel like you skew things into an incredibly optimistic point of view.

 

[Faltorvo]

Have you seen where we ranked those players when they were here? I don't think 1 of them was even top 10. Trading 5 prospects outside your top 10 for an NHL player is a win in this league. Especially when you're preaching the type of rebuilding that results in acquiring and using a lot of draft picks.

gee idk finn was our 2nd highest ranked d prospect

carter verh was our 3rd best c prospect

not exactly ranked as chopped liver here.

 

[34]

We sent nothing of value for another pile hot garbage lol. No loss guys.

Welcome to the Shanahan/Babcock era.

 

[Bluelines]

Beck is a bottom 6 guy and Grabner should be a top 6 or 9. They play different games. Hard to compare but clearly both hold little value.

If you really think we're going to use the ECHL for NHL development you're completely missing the boat on what the plan in there.

The ECHL will be used for the Marlies development. If a prospect of ours ends up on the ECHL team then he's really not in the Leafs long term plans. If they end up here...great...but the ECHL will never be used like that because no NHL team has a prospect pool that deep.

To argue that prospects not in our top 10 are worth more then 1 NHL player is hfboard logic that is just severely flawed. How often do teams 15th best prospects make an NHL impact? At best they're injury call ups. Our goal is for Grabner to score 15 and turn him into a 3rd and 5th that to a Mark Hunter could maybe be a future top 4 NHL defenceman or starting goaltender in 5 years.

None of what we traded today had that upside. But it certainly opens up space in the organization for others now and in the future who could have higher upside then anyone we moved today.

We're still setting the table here. Lots of moves yet to come and not every trade is about getting maximum value for every asset, sometimes it's about creating space or putting people in the way of others to create competition. We accomplished both of those with this deal as we had to move contracts and the ones we moved were on the bottom tier of our 50.

Very well said.

 

[whiteandblue]

Gotta think that a trade of this magnitude (given the number of prospects we gave up) would've been deliberated on by Shanny, Babcock, Hunter, Dubas. That it went through speaks volumes on a team that is preaching a long term development vision. These were, at best, going to be marginal NHL players.

 

[PJJ]

Finn was such a great prospect

 

[Bluelines]

I
As for the rest. With your line of thinking, we got rid of Strålman. Your line of thinking has been a weakness in this organization for a very long time, giving up on prospects early and often.

Which prospects that we gave up on eventually became something that we coveted? Raask? That is about all I can think of.

 

[34]

Gotta think that a trade of this magnitude (given the number of prospects we gave up) would've been deliberated on by Shanny, Babcock, Hunter, Dubas. That it went through speaks volumes on a team that is preaching a long term development vision. These were, at best, going to be marginal NHL players.

Agree with this. They were not even going to amount to more than below average AHL caliber.


Now put Grabner on waivers and you have cleared 5 roster spots.

 

[Woll Smoth]

I think its safe to say Lou has more moves to come. Read into it what you may. I stand by what I said earlier. Lou wants to make this team better.

How enlightening. GM wants to make team better. More at 7

 

[Menzinger]

Grabner Hasn't had a 30+ season since 2012. I don't think he's going to be able to do much to help the team "win now".

 

[showtime8]

Beck is a bottom 6 guy and Grabner should be a top 6 or 9. They play different games. Hard to compare but clearly both hold little value.

If you really think we're going to use the ECHL for NHL development you're completely missing the boat on what the plan in there.

The ECHL will be used for the Marlies development. If a prospect of ours ends up on the ECHL team then he's really not in the Leafs long term plans. If they end up here...great...but the ECHL will never be used like that because no NHL team has a prospect pool that deep.

To argue that prospects not in our top 10 are worth more then 1 NHL player is hfboard logic that is just severely flawed. How often do teams 15th best prospects make an NHL impact? At best they're injury call ups. Our goal is for Grabner to score 15 and turn him into a 3rd and 5th that to a Mark Hunter could maybe be a future top 4 NHL defenceman or starting goaltender in 5 years.

None of what we traded today had that upside. But it certainly opens up space in the organization for others now and in the future who could have higher upside then anyone we moved today.

We're still setting the table here. Lots of moves yet to come and not every trade is about getting maximum value for every asset, sometimes it's about creating space or putting people in the way of others to create competition. We accomplished both of those with this deal as we had to move contracts and the ones we moved were on the bottom tier of our 50.

Why can't players be developed in the ECHL?

I think that if you aren't going to utilize your whole system and tools for development, then you leave yourself shorthanded.

You're right, the greater percentage of players in the NHL, never played in the ECHL.

But then again, you discount Sam Carrick and Garrett Sparks. And Sparks was the guy that spent a majority of the year in the ECHL and was kept in lieu of Christopher Gibson.

 

[Menzinger]

Reflecting on comments from Dubas, I think the Leas would rather give some players 1st line minutes in the ECHL than have them play a bottom six role with the Marlies.

Certainly for goalies, it can be good - ie Sparks had a fantastic season last year with the Solar Bears.

 

[ULF_55]

We will have to see what happens to these prospects now they're gone.

Not sure if Beck is on a 2-way, but the others probably only add up to $500k in the AHL, and Grabner was going to get $5mm in real dollars.

I'm guessing the audition at the prospects tournament is what made some of them available, and maybe Beck and Nilsson were the perq's for the Islanders.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Grabner Hasn't had a 30+ season since 2012. I don't think he's going to be able to do much to help the team "win now".

Atleast he has proven he is capable of scoring 30+ goals in the NHL. 27 is not that old. We still have 20 something players that are trying to prove they are consistent modest 50 point performers.

 

[tokyoite]

smells as a trade bait.

 

[Jozay]

Atleast he has proven he is capable of scoring 30+ goals in the NHL. 27 is not that old. We still have 20 something players that are trying to prove they are consistent modest 50 point performers.

was with tavares and moulson

 

[Faltorvo]

Beck is a bottom 6 guy and Grabner should be a top 6 or 9. They play different games. Hard to compare but clearly both hold little value.

If you really think we're going to use the ECHL for NHL development you're completely missing the boat on what the plan in there.

The ECHL will be used for the Marlies development. If a prospect of ours ends up on the ECHL team then he's really not in the Leafs long term plans. If they end up here...great...but the ECHL will never be used like that because no NHL team has a prospect pool that deep.

To argue that prospects not in our top 10 are worth more then 1 NHL player is hfboard logic that is just severely flawed. How often do teams 15th best prospects make an NHL impact? At best they're injury call ups. Our goal is for Grabner to score 15 and turn him into a 3rd and 5th that to a Mark Hunter could maybe be a future top 4 NHL defenceman or starting goaltender in 5 years.

None of what we traded today had that upside. But it certainly opens up space in the organization for others now and in the future who could have higher upside then anyone we moved today.

We're still setting the table here. Lots of moves yet to come and not every trade is about getting maximum value for every asset, sometimes it's about creating space or putting people in the way of others to create competition. We accomplished both of those with this deal as we had to move contracts and the ones we moved were on the bottom tier of our 50.

you should be a pro scout JB

being able to make such strong absolute claims about kids just a few years after they have been drafted, such perfect and exact precision and knowledge surely is worthy of a nhl sal.

 

[Bluelines]

was with tavares and moulson

Naz is as good as Tavares...just ask him he will tell you so.

 

[RLF]

They're really not all that young though as their place in the organization was replaced by players acquired over the past 15 months.

After a season or 2 of pro hockey as an organization you have a pretty good idea of who the future NHL players are in your group.

Grabner in the 1st month plays more NHL hockey for us then any of them ever would. Plus it opens up 4 other spots.

You can't wait on a Finn or Gibson to take that next step forever just because you have them. The plan over the next 18-24 months simply did not include them.

I have no issue with the analysis phase of Hunter and Shanahan and Dubas deciding that these kids were not going to pan out to being top NHL talent. Especially when the potential for PTO's to be flipped for picks can set us up better for a draft then trading those prospects ever would have especially after another mediocre season.

The decision was made that Gibson was #5 on the depth chart. Finn and Nilsson probably not in the top 6 for the Marlies and Verhaeghe had no room against the Nylander's Brown's and Gauthier's who need the ice time so we can see if they also need to be moved on from or built around.

We traded 5 players so that we can bring in 5 new players. The 5 we moved were getting us nothing as individuals. Because the trade brought back 1 player does not change the reason why the trade was done or how it should benefit us moving forward with added flexibility.

I am not saying that these guys were at the top of our prospect list or blue chippers and I understand the reasoning as I stated in my first post. That doesn't change the fact that we moved 5 prospects for 1 fringe NHLer. Are you trying to tell me we could not have moved any of those prospects otherwise and this was the only way it could have been done? There was no chance to move any of them for a pick instead. That would still have created the contract space you are deeming paramount and we would already have the pick in hand and could still sign the PTO player and get another pick. None of Finn, Ver, Nilsson, Gib, or Beck could have been moved for a pick...whether it be a 4th,5th 6th whatever. I find that hard to believe. Verhaege alone just turned 20 and is coming off an 82 pt OHL season. He has no value though?

 

[Stephen]

My breakdown:

Don't care about Grabner. Or Setoguchi. Or Boyes. Or whomever else they're trying to make room for other than what they can return at the deadline.

No one has liked Finn for a long time. He's headed to Jesse Blacker territory.

Was intrigued to see what Beck could do. Pretty sure he lit up the Leafs in that 9-2 Nashville game. Saw him as a potential poor man's Peter Holland type addition.

Verhaeghe was a Morrison type pick. Cast somewhat as a middle six player in the OHL with probably very limited upside and zero ability that jumps out at you.

Gibson had latent upside but was kind of a bust out of the Kings system anyway.

Nilsson had long shot potential but hasn't really made big steps forward. No biggie with the annual influx of Swedish defenders we draft anyway.

 

[crump]

Maybe the 3 on 3 overtime this season was a factor in trying to get him. But still... 5 prospects? So much for patience huh. They weren't blue chip, but it wouldn't be a stretch that at least 3 could bite us in the ass in a few years. I get that they might want to draft their own players, but for an expiring contract, you think maybe 2 like Finn and Gibson could have got it done.