Confirmed with Link: Leafs trade Beck, Finn, Gibson, Nilsson and Verhaeghe for Grabner

[Mitchy]

OMG, are some people actually saying that by getting players like Grabner and other players on ptos that this team is abandoning it's rebuild and are serious about winning this year?

 

[Budsfan]

If we get stamkos it better be through FA. Don't want Phil Kessel 2.0 where we have a star but no cast around him because we traded our youth

Frankly that will never happen, TB won't let him walk for nothing and will trade him but as I stated maybe sooner, rather than later and few teams, will make a trade, without a new contract in the offing.

This thread is about the Grabner trade and all that is speculation and is very unlikely to to happen.

 

[Faltorvo]

Right now this looks like a utterly crappy deal

The premise I am reading here is that we dumped all these young "maybe" players
for a guy who if not under contract would be on a PTO, given his last 2 seasons and injury history.

and we want room to ink more washed up scrub PTOs, so we could maybe flip them at the TD or maybe they turn into Booth?


unless there is a move coming that justifies the need for the freed up contract slots , that does not include inking a boat load of these washed up PTO players ,

then this will once again look like your typical leafs move , giving up on young prospects way before their time and getting a vet who did something 3/5 seasons ago.

the curse of the morons may just continue

 

[Mess]

What's the under/over on Grabner goals this year 15?

I'll take the over on this one.

Grabner will likely play in the top 6 this year for the Leafs.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Well I mentioned Stamkos but I agree he is a long shot however if TB can't come to terms with him, they may decide to trade him, if they get a good offer and maybe sooner rather than later.

I am of the opinion that we shouldn't sign a high-priced player at this time because it limits our flexibility to add prospects and other players that don't have his high-profile but ones that could better help the team, first with defence and then adding offense but players like Stamkos, are tops at their position and not usually available, so still a Quandry for me, if they do make this kind of move and thus the excitment of not knowing what is coming next.

The only way i'd honestly consider Stamkos is if he came in free via UFA, but it goes counter to the rebuild.

Why would you want to dump Donaghey who doesn't even count as a contract against the 50?

Not a fan of him as a prospect, and at some point he will count and it'll be for 3 years unless we can move him.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

OMG, are some people actually saying that by getting players like Grabner and other players on ptos that this team is abandoning it's rebuild and are serious about winning this year?

I don't think so

 

[Razz]

I'm ok with this trade. Clearly they are flushing the prospects from the previous regime. I prefer this approach to Burke's which was to swap struggling prospects with other teams. This management group is more focused on finding their own guys.

If Grabner works out wonderful, we sign him in the summer and if not we trade him for a pick at the deadline. Either way it's a move forward. Grabner does replace a lot of what Kessel offered as far as a speedy winger who can score (just not nearly as often). He could replace a good portion of what the Leafs lost though.

All in all, I'm ok with the trade. I expected a lot of the Burke/Nonis era guys to be shipped out anyway.

 

[showtime8]

If we think about all of the guys that were passing Finn on the depth chart, it's not going to be a huge loss.

Loov, Harrington, Percy & Dermott all had a lot better chances to play bigger minutes and have bigger roles. By the time those players get their chance with the big club, Finn would have had to battle for a spot with the next draft class or players that would be available.

I never knew what to expect from Nilsson. He doesn't have the size to play physical, and he isn't really putting up huge points. But he was the typical Swedish player that could think the game really well and move the puck well.

Verhaeghe I think was going to lose the numbers battle at centre, if both Nylander and (eventually) Marner would be with the Marlies.

Gibson is the guy that I didn't understand. IMO, he had the highest upside out of all 3 of the goalies that played with the Marlies last year. But it was really close between him and Bibeau. Interesting to hear why it was Gibson that was let go and not Sparks or Bibeau.

Also, I thought that Beck had a major chance to make the team. Tough luck for him with the PTO guys that were brought in.

 

[TheCLAM]

Right now this looks like a utterly crappy deal

The premise I am reading here is that we dumped all these young "maybe" players
for a guy who if not under contract would be on a PTO, given his last 2 seasons and injury history.

and we want room to ink more washed up scrub PTOs, so we could maybe flip them at the TD or maybe they turn into Booth?


unless there is a move coming that justifies the need for the freed up contract slots , that does not include inking a boat load of these washed up PTO players ,

then this will once again look like your typical leafs move , giving up on young prospects way before their time and getting a vet who did something 3/5 seasons ago.

the curse of the morons may just continue

Small minded thinking on this one. The guys on PTO's aren't washed up and there are a ton of good assets league wide being signed to these deals. Given we opened up contract spots to sign NHL players is definitely a +. We have up some talent, but mostly players that can be replaced via next years draft.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I always liked Verhaeghe but lets be real, he had no chance on the Leafs. Who was he gonna beat out? Marner Nylander Kadri Holland Gauthier

Him making the Leafs wasn't on the table now. In the future, after say two seasons in the AHL, things might look very different. Gauthier might bust and Holland and Kadri would be gone.

There was no need to get rid of him, based on what he has done and shown. And I'm not even a big fan. I can imagine how someone like Interactif feels about this.

 

[showtime8]

OMG, are some people actually saying that by getting players like Grabner and other players on ptos that this team is abandoning it's rebuild and are serious about winning this year?

I think the people that are freaking out are more concerned about trading away the prospects and not so much with who they got in return.

And I somewhat understand where they're coming from.

If the message this whole time has been to get younger and they trade 5 guys under the age of 22 (?) for a guy that is 27, then it doesn't really make sense in that aspect.

What they failed to understand was the reasoning behind it.

The Leafs won't actually say that those players weren't high on the depth chart, but that was most likely the case. They also wanted to find themselves in a situation where they could get a Richard Panik type player off the waiver wire at the start of the season when teams try to sneak guys through to the AHL.

 

[RLF]

Just heard this now, so this is my initial reaction without taking any real time to think about it.lol
Seems like ALOT to give up for a average 3rd line NHLer. The only thing I figure is that they are planning on signing some of the PTO's and hopefully flipping them for picks at the TDL which they believe will better our prospect pool then what they just gave away. Still though a former 2nd, (2) former 3rds former 4th and a project goalie for Grabner, a former waiver wire guy. Wow, they must have a plan for those open contracts, maybe a bigger move coming where we GET some prospects in return for a roster player. Still digesting this one.

 

[Kurtz]

Frankly that will never happen, TB won't let him walk for nothing and will trade him but as I stated maybe sooner, rather than later and few teams, will make a trade, without a new contract in the offing.

This thread is about the Grabner trade and all that is speculation and is very unlikely to to happen.

It's up to him. Stamkos will be a FA if he wants to, and there's nothing TB can do to stop him. And frankly, I don't see any reason for Stamkos not to go to FA other than loyalty to TB...and TB may not have said loyalty given that they're already exploring trade options.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I find it amusing that people were still that high on him. He really didn't impress last year, or at rookie camp. People put too much of themselves into prospects. Saw the same with the rabid Finn defenders.

I was really not high on him. In fact, in most discussions about him, I was one of the more critical. And I'm not saying he was a surefire prospect or even a good prospect, but he still had value and a chance. That chance might not come here, but then you trade him and get value. We sent him and others in a similar situations to get a Grabner that has been mediocre for a while now. That's just not good.

 

[showtime8]

Him making the Leafs wasn't on the table now. In the future, after say two seasons in the AHL, things might look very different. Gauthier might bust and Holland and Kadri would be gone.

There was no need to get rid of him, based on what he has done and shown. And I'm not even a big fan. I can imagine how someone like Interactif feels about this.

I think we all fall in love with guys that the Leafs actually drafted.

And then when guys like Froese come along and take spots away from players, then we get a little butt hurt about it.

We should be more focused on the guys that we stole away (Panik, Froese, etc.) that might actually turn out to be really good finds.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Right now this looks like a utterly crappy deal

The premise I am reading here is that we dumped all these young "maybe" players
for a guy who if not under contract would be on a PTO, given his last 2 seasons and injury history.

and we want room to ink more washed up scrub PTOs, so we could maybe flip them at the TD or maybe they turn into Booth?


unless there is a move coming that justifies the need for the freed up contract slots , that does not include inking a boat load of these washed up PTO players ,

then this will once again look like your typical leafs move , giving up on young prospects way before their time and getting a vet who did something 3/5 seasons ago.

the curse of the morons may just continue

When you start drafting 2-3 times in early rounds and leaving a draft with 12-15 kids then your draft picks from 3-4-5 years ago become trade bait. Trading them for a Grabner with an idea of turning the contract slots into future trade bait is simply long term planning to acquire even more draft picks and offer flexibility to claim players off waivers.

Our management knows what the ceiling is for the Finn's and Gibson's and decided other prospects are ahead of them and there was going to be limited ice time for them moving forward meaning they become non-tendered UFA's in the near future.

Why would you keep Finn as an ECHL defenceman when any of the PTO's could become numerous 2nds, 3rds, and 4ths that the 5 players we traded were never bringing back?

Those washed up scrub PTO's offer experience and the potential to be flipped for more draft picks.

The reason for trading 4 'prospects' today is to get more prospects in the future. Failed prospects from past drafts hold no trade value so we may have actually had to start paying teams to take them as Hunter clearly has decided they will play no role in our future.

Are we already turning on Mark Hunter because he thinks Brian Burke and Dave Nonis' draft picks have no future on his team? I'd say most people in his position would be looking at the same kind of purge with the goal being to acquire more picks to replace those players in the organization.

 

[fahad203]

Him making the Leafs wasn't on the table now. In the future, after say two seasons in the AHL, things might look very different. Gauthier might bust and Holland and Kadri would be gone.

There was no need to get rid of him, based on what he has done and shown. And I'm not even a big fan. I can imagine how someone like Interactif feels about this.

I don't know if he has done or shown anything. He has looked very average and that's because well he's an average prospect. There are Carters in every organization.

All these prospects we got rid of are medicore. They would have taken space and ice time from players we need to focus on.

Sashnikov who looked very good deserves more ice time and a slot with the Marlies. I believe we have Johanson coming over along with Hyman and Bailey. To me they have more upside than Carter.

Matt Finn looked bad before he even got hurt. I remember rookie tourny 2 years ago he was brutal. Loov emerged as the 6th or 7th D, we already have Percy ahead of him and Dermott is ahead of him by a mile.

This trade hurts a bit because they are younger players and given our history younger players always come back to haunt us. But you can't always let your past hinder your present decisions.

I dont' really care for the retun, I never liked Grabners game but it's good that we are focusing on players that have shown to up better upside

 

[crump]

Lou is too old. Ok it's official.

Not sure about this. At all. I know we love our prospects here on HFboards, but that's a lot of potential to give up for a meh player. Scratching my head on this one. Someone enlighten me on the benefits of Grabner that he is worth that much.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I think its safe to say Lou has more moves to come. Read into it what you may. I stand by what I said earlier. Lou wants to make this team better.

First of all, we acquired an experienced player who has one-year remaining on his contract who brings a tremendous amount of speed to the lineup. Certainly you’ve seen him enough at the Island. It also allows us, with the number of contracts that went back, to do other things at the right time.

 

[cookie]

Many of the skaters given up would probably make the NHL in a special-teams' basis. Verhaeghe (PK), Nilsson (PK), Finn (PK) and maybe even Beck as a PK option. If your game is structured so that the only way you're getting into the league is not due to your 5v5 play but rather how you can fulfill a certain niche, you don't have much upside to begin with.

I could see guys like Gauthier moving in the future if we're gonna follow this line of thinking. The kind of presence these sort of players bring to a team can easily and relatively cheaply be acquired through free agency or even the waiver wire.

Verhaeghe-3rd liner at best; Finn-low chance of being a second-pairing guy; Beck-3rd/4th liner; Nilsson-3rd pairing guy; Gibson-backup. All of this for a guy who will get ample minutes under a top coach. There's a chance he may be a 1-year rental but I'd think that playing for Babcock is being overlooked.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I think we all fall in love with guys that the Leafs actually drafted.

And then when guys like Froese come along and take spots away from players, then we get a little butt hurt about it.

We should be more focused on the guys that we stole away (Panik, Froese, etc.) that might actually turn out to be really good finds.

I don't care much about the prospects. I care about the value of the trade. If we wanted to open up contract spots, there were better ways to do it. If we wanted to use prospects to get a roster player in the process, there were better guys to target.

I don't have anything against the idea of the trade. I feel the execution was off the mark in terms of value.

I don't know if he has done or shown anything. He has looked very average and that's because well he's an average prospect. There are Carters in every organization.

All these prospects we got rid of are medicore. They would have taken space and ice time from players we need to focus on.

Sashnikov who looked very good deserves more ice time and a slot with the Marlies. I believe we have Johanson coming over along with Hyman and Bailey. To me they have more upside than Carter.

Matt Finn looked bad before he even got hurt. I remember rookie tourny 2 years ago he was brutal. Loov emerged as the 6th or 7th D, we already have Percy ahead of him and Dermott is ahead of him by a mile.

This trade hurts a bit because they are younger players and given our history younger players always come back to haunt us. But you can't always let your past hinder your present decisions.

I dont' really care for the retun, I never liked Grabners game but it's good that we are focusing on players that have shown to up better upside

Yes they were pretty mediocre prospects. But you don't throw away mediocre prospects for whatever, which is pretty much what Grabner is at this point.

People seem to have this idea that those who criticize the move are too attached to the prospects or deem them tough losses. I don't. I just don't like the value.

If it had been Rupert instead of Verhaeghe and Donaghue instead of Nilsson, it would have been a more fair trade and we'd get rid of weaker contract spots.

Right now we basically threw away four completely adequate prospects just to make room for players we will most likely turn into picks. Late round picks that would be a success if they were adequate prospects when it's time to turn pro, at the same age or thereabout as the ones we just gave up. It feels like a pointless exercise.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Just heard this now, so this is my initial reaction without taking any real time to think about it.lol
Seems like ALOT to give up for a average 3rd line NHLer. The only thing I figure is that they are planning on signing some of the PTO's and hopefully flipping them for picks at the TDL which they believe will better our prospect pool then what they just gave away. Still though a former 2nd, (2) former 3rds former 4th and a project goalie for Grabner, a former waiver wire guy. Wow, they must have a plan for those open contracts, maybe a bigger move coming where we GET some prospects in return for a roster player. Still digesting this one.

Where those players were picked is now irrelevant. It's what their value is now that's important.

Not 1 of those players get us an asset like any 1 of the PTO's could. So 4-5 PTO's plus Grabner could bring us 3-4X the value of those 4 prospects would have right now. Plus it opens up Marlie ice time for other prospects.

Really is a win/win all around. Hell the upside for any of them is depth players. None ever considered top 4 D/top 6 F/starting goalie material except for Finn in his draft year and even he now is a bottom pair prospect at best.

 

[Jack Bauer]

I don't care much about the prospects. I care about the value of the trade. If we wanted to open up contract spots, there were better ways to do it. If we wanted to use prospects to get a roster player in the process, there were better guys to target.

I don't have anything against the idea of the trade. I feel the execution was off the mark in terms of value.



Yes they were pretty mediocre prospects. But you don't throw away mediocre prospects for whatever, which is pretty much what Grabner is at this point.

People seem to have this idea that those who criticize the move are too attached to the prospects or deem them tough losses. I don't. I just don't like the value.

If it had been Rupert instead of Verhaeghe and Donaghue instead of Nilsson, it would have been a more fair trade and we'd get rid of weaker contract spots.

Right now we basically threw away four completely adequate prospects just to make room for players we will most likely turn into picks. Late round picks that would be a success if they were adequate prospects when it's time to turn pro.

Those adequate prospects were all gone within 2 years. The kids we pick over the next 2 years will be adequate prospects coming along with all our other prospects plus they'll be Hunter picks.

The idea behind bringing in Hunter was to let him find the kids, not force him to develop what he deems as mediocre prospects because that's what is here now. Remember the term Scorched Earth? This is a part of that process.

 

[TheOtherSide]

Don't know if this has been brought up yet, but my favourite Grabner moment is when he sniped to SHG against the Leafs on the same PK.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I think its safe to say Lou has more moves to come. Read into it what you may. I stand by what I said earlier. Lou wants to make this team better.

Seems like the Leafs aren't intentionally tanking, but trying to make it a competitive and professional environment (which is a change in culture for sure). In doing so it will make the Leafs a better place for youngsters like Nylander to play and flourish since there will be a better supporting cast and proper coaching involved.

At the same time this move, as noted in Lou's comments, will help add roster flexibility via contracts being moved out. How that will be used it to be determined (maybe taking a bad contract back in a trade for a draft pick/prospect or signing some of the PTO's to a one year deal) but in the interim the Leafs were able to acquire a player who could give them some returns at the deadline.

It's a risk to move those prospects out without trying to develop them further, and hope those PTO's/Grabner can play well enough for a contract. But I'll trust Hunter's scouting eye on the situation as he probably would have been the guy who said those kids were expendable.

It's a loss for the Leafs if they're unable to use those contract spots and get assets with them, or if they're unable to get anything for Grabner. And it's only a lopsided deal if this happens PLUS one or two of those prospects that went to the Isles pan out to be a player in the long run.