Post-Game Talk: Leafs sweep California

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Just the stupid ones. And the ones with a "fire the GM" viewpoint.

So many are openly on here cheering against the team so they can get the GM fired. Read that again - openly cheering against the team because of a person who has zero effect on the on-ice play. And there are dozens of these nitwits on here.

I'm sure my pathetic little tag-along will be by soon...

This is the best Leaf team in over 5 decades, or one of the top.....and that is ALL they care about..

Show me 1 post where I once said that I want the team to lose just so Dubas gets fired.

I will wait.

I know that’s I can be a tad negative on here sometimes, but, I am not negative because of the reason you stated. I am negative because I have seen this song and dance from this team before. They’re Tarzan in the regular season and Jane in the playoffs.

A year and a half ago, I was exactly like you. I was defending Dubas to no end and I was positive and after that incredible game 4 comeback vs CBJ. And we all know what they did in game 5. Even last year, they played incredible in the regular season. I was positive and then that 3-1 choke job to the Habs happened. And that was the straw that broke the camels back for me. I refuse to get my hopes up with this team ever again until they, at the absolute bare minimum win a playoff round.
 
What more can this team have possibly done this year to make the skeptics happy?.

Very simple. Show up in the playoffs and WIN AT LEAST ONE ROUND!!! You won’t hear a negative thing from me if that happens. I will be too busy screaming like a teenager at a Justin Bieber concert.

When are you guys are going to realize that the regular season with the current state of this team means absolutely f*** all? What they’re doing right now is to be expected, because they’re one of the most talented teams in the league.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Play the way they have in the last 15 games in the playoffs and you’ll see just how lightning quick the “sky is falling” crew changes their tune.
 
Very simple. Show up in the playoffs and WIN AT LEAST ONE ROUND!!! You won’t hear a negative thing from me if that happens. I will be too busy screaming like a teenager at a Justin Bieber concert.
Last year shouldnt really count as argument in this season, it’s a fresh start every year.
 
The leafs play is totally supported by the data. I've ranked all the teams based on some key metrics and the leafs weakness is a holy shit...how good can this team get moment.
NameGoal Differential per 60Shot Rate Differential per 60Shot Quality Differential per 60Shooting Goals Above Expected per 60Goaltending Goals Above Expected per 60
Flames118143
Hurricanes2321151
Capitals3510514
Panthers442376
Avalanche5614129
Oilers6155610
Maple Leafs762303
Wild8138224
Blues91013913
Ducks102012117
Lightning1111271010
Rangers122211715
Blue Jackets132320318
Bruins142251225
Penguins15916249
Jets161219278
Golden Knights171916265
Devils1818151816
Stars191732022
Sharks202471517
Kings218223012
Predators2221251321
Red Wings232732220
Flyers242632232
Kraken251629732
Sabres262930431
Canucks2714282922
Islanders2825103219
Blackhawks293062528
Canadiens3028182825
Senators3131242130
Coyotes3232311927
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 
You are again blowing things up because its your team though.

I'm not blowing anything up, I just happen to care about the Leafs which is post on the Leafs board.

Lets just do a local comparison to the Panthers.

Their team is built around Barkov/Ekblad/Huberdeau right?

I don't follow them too closely so I really don't care who they're built around.

How have they done?

2014-2015: Missed the playoffs
2015-2016: 1st in the Atlantic, got squashed in the first round in massive upset (dagger by Tavares)
2016-2017: Missed the playoffs
2017-2018: Missed the playoffs
2018-2019: Missed the playoffs
2019-2020: 10th in East, Lost in the play-ins
2020-2021: Lost in the first round

It's FLA so TBH, I really don't care how they've done.

Why have there not been a million threads on the main boards and their home forum about blowing up the entire pathetic choking team?

I no idea what goes on their home forum and I don't care. The main boards in general hate the Leafs though, if you're not aware of that then take it from me, it's true.

Theres no bigger choke than failing to even qualify for the playoffs....and I'm not going to call them that. Theres countless more example all over sports just like this, all of which are far worse than the Leafs.

That's not the way I see it, sorry. Most teams that don't make the playoffs don't make it because they are simply bad teams, choking has nothing to do with it.

Theres countless more example all over sports just like this, all of which are far worse than the Leafs. Wheres the morons in the Canada threads saying Huberdeau and Ekblad should be nowhere near team Canada?

Again, I don't care about FLA players. There are many excellent players who get put down by some idiots because they play on bad teams. It even happens to superstars like McDavid so I'm sure there are people saying it about FLA players as well, they just get less attention because FLA isn't a big hockey market.

The Leafs and their core are by any measure far more successful than they have been right?....and yet they are darlings in even the Toronto media as the hometown media spits on its own team.

Are they really? LOL that's pretty dumb but TBH I don't really care. The Toronto sports media is mostly a relatively uninteresting form of entertainment and I decided a long time to not waste a lot of time on it.

I'm not taking part in the massive market that is so invested in losing here. I'm rooting for my team to win.

And I'm with you, 100%.

Remember that feel good story of the accountant who took the net for the Hawks and beat the Jets? It was great and he made some sick saves too. No one remembered it after a couple of weeks though it seems.

It sounds vaguely familiar but no not really.

Remember that feel good story of the Zamboni driver who took the net for the Canes and beat the Leafs? Of course you do and its not a feel good story, its shoved down our throats as a negative story. Its a big part of the problem. I just tune it out though now with our embarrassment of a press led by 80 iq losers chasing down hot dog vendors in slanderous hit pieces and never made to pay a price when called out. Just feels like I have to push back against this nonsense.

Hahaha of course, that zamboni driver nonsense is one of many overblown narratives in the media and once again, that's why I pay almost no attention to Toronto sports media.

I agree with you the media sucks. If it bothers you so much then I sympathize, myself I've learned to tune it out so it doesn't really bother me.

You haven't addressed my main point though, here it is again from the post you quoted:

What are the plenty more examples? I'm not just talking about not winning, I'm talking about 4 years in a row, everything is going along in a completely reasonable fashion and then when it all comes down to one game, our level of play just drops. Instead of rising to the occasion, we just play terrible, more than once I'd say we even play our worst game of the playoffs.

In 2018 we had a good regular season and the playoff series against Boston was a tough fought battle that all came down to the third period of game 7. We led 4-3 going in and we got dominated and lost that 3rd period 4-0. Why is it that with the season on the line, we as a team played some of our worst hockey of the year?

In 2019 we had a good regular season and the playoff series against Boston was a tough fought battle that all came down one game. We got dominated and lost that game 5-1. Why is it that with the season on the line, we as a team played some of our worst hockey of the year?

In 2020 we had a good regular season (not a ton of points but considering all the injuries we had, not bad at all) and the playoff series against CLB was a tough fought battle that all came down one game. We got dominated and lost that game 3-0. Why is it that with the season on the line, we as a team played some of our worst hockey of the year?

In 2021 we had a good regular season (not a ton of points but considering all the injuries we had, not bad at all) and the playoff series against MTL was a tough fought battle that all came down one game. We got dominated and lost that game 3-1. Why is it that for the 4th year in a row with the season on the line, we as a team played some of our worst hockey of the year?

In case you're counting, that's us getting outscored 15-2 in the last 10 periods in which our entire season was on the line, no you simply can not blame it all on the goaltending, that is a total team collapse and that my friend, is what I call choking.

To be clear, I'm not saying we're a team of chokers. I like our team. I really hope that this spring, things are different. But until we at the very least win one playoff series, perhaps you can understand why I'm not quite ready to pound my chest and talk about what a great team we have. And I'm sick of people saying that people like me aren't "enjoying" how we're playing - yes I am. Not enjoying it is as much as I would be if we didn't have 4 seasons of playoff choking behind us, but enjoying it all the same. Not enjoying it as much as I enjoy it when we win in the playoff but still, I'm enjoying it.

If you have some theory on why we have collapsed to end the last 4 seasons then I'd like to hear it. And if you have examples of this happening to other sports franchises then I'd be interested to hear about it because like I said, I've never seen anything like it. And I'm not talking about the Red Sox not winning the title for eons or us not winning the title for over 50 years, I'm talking about playing hard and playing well for a full season and for most of a playoff series and then when we're almost at the finish line, we just disappear.

I don't think you can explain it, so far I haven't heard anyone with a plausible theory so who knows, maybe it's just a massive co-incidence of maybe the team really is cursed. You probably can't explain it and that's fine, I don't expect you to able to explain what nobody else can either. But please stop trying to convince me with a bunch of numbers that we've actually played well, that we have not actually collapsed in these situations because we absolutely have.

Once again, the numbers over the last 10 periods are 15-2, it doesn't get much more clear than that.
 
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Nice win, great road trip.

It was indeed. Not the toughest opposition but still, all NHL teams are good and there are no easy wins. The team is playing great now and I have to say, watching these games is boring in a very enjoyable way. :)
 
In 2021 we had a good regular season (not a ton of points but considering all the injuries we had, not bad at all) and the playoff series against MTL was a tough fought battle that all came down one game. We got dominated and lost that game 3-1. Why is it that for the 4th year in a row with the season on the line, we as a team played some of our worst hockey of the year?

In case you're counting, that's us getting outscored 15-2 in the last 13 periods in which our entire season was on the line, no you simply can not blame it all on the goaltending, that is a total team collapse and that my friend, is what I call choking.

To be clear, I'm not saying we're a team of chokers. I like our team. I really hope that this spring, things are different. But until we at the very least win one playoff series, perhaps you can understand why I'm not quite ready to pound my chest and talk about what a great team we have. And I'm sick of people saying that people like me aren't "enjoying" how we're playing - yes I am. Not enjoying it is as much as I would be if we didn't have 4 seasons of playoff choking behind us, but enjoying it all the same. Not enjoying it as much as I enjoy it when we win in the playoff but still, I'm enjoying it.

If you have some theory on why we have collapsed to end the last 4 seasons then I'd like to hear it. And if you have examples of this happening to other sports franchises then I'd be interested to hear about it because like I said, I've never seen anything like it. And I'm not talking about the Red Sox not winning the title for eons or us not winning the title for over 50 years, I'm talking about playing hard and playing well for a full season and for most of a playoff series and then when we're almost at the finish line, we just disappear.

I don't think you can explain it, so far I haven't heard anyone with a plausible theory so who knows, maybe it's just a massive co-incidence of maybe the team really is cursed. You probably can't explain it and that's fine, I don't expect you to able to explain what nobody else can either. But please stop trying to convince me with a bunch of numbers that we've actually played well, that we have not actually collapsed in these situations because we absolutely have.

Once again, the numbers over the last 13 periods are 15-2, it doesn't get much more clear than that.

You're not going to like the answers though my friend.

First off, the Leafs have only been the favorite in one series, last year right? It was the only series they were expected to win and they badly outplayed the Habs in the series as a whole (more dominant numbers over the series than they had on them during the regular season) and yet still lost. Why?

The numbers scream goaltending/shooting%/injuries (the most injured team in any first round I remember)

These are all considered to be the main luck stats in the game of hockey. It's not satisfying but the main issue with the team the last couple of years really was bad luck.

As far as final games go, there has been a ton of turnover the last 4 years but the Leafs stars have consistently been good in clutch games but the opposition goalies have, for whatever reason, put up elite performances against them....like the Leafs having an 18-3 scoring chance advantage with Matthews on the ice (One assist, a post hit) last year in game 7 and yet it's Campbell letting in the customary brutal game 7 softie to open the scoring (the only goal in the whole series scored on Matthews/Marner 5v5).

The stats from the final game last year were shots 31-23 Leafs, scoring chances 24-14 Leafs. It was a low event game won by the better goalie in the end. (feels like an endless loop here) Thats a lot of playoffs though (and why Tampa won the cup last year). Seeing as they failed to score worse than the Leafs in elimination games last year (especially their stars), are Tampas players a bunch of epic chokers saved by their goaltending? No one would say such a thing simply because they won....and their goalie stole them the cup last year (nice to be healthy too)

It's why there is so much hope this year really. The team wants to win and works its butts off but hasnt gotten the bounces. The hockey gods cant be so cruel as to not give us a bounce or two this next playoffs right? Even talking about 13 periods (while still leaving out all the elimination periods in between) is still a crazy small sample size that looks far more like bad luck than getting dominated in any way, shape or form. Hell, you could replay those same games and more often than not, the Leafs would win them too just based on run of play.

Gotta have faith in the best team we have seen in a generation and I dont even care about winning a round. I want a chance at the cup every year and this is a solid core to do it with as long as we can actually have even close to the better goalie in a series. If we just had equivilent goaltending, we easily win the last two years (and one of the Boston series IMO). Thats why I think its so important.
 
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a lot of people on these boards said that Columbus was an awful team and that their analytics proved it so that's why I threw that series in there
To be clear, Columbus was not an awful team. They were actually 4th in the league in xGF%. They had the same number of points as us, and while they weren't very good offensively, they were the best defensive team in the league that year, even despite being with us at the top of the injury-impact list.
 
. Play the way they have in the last 15 games in the playoffs and you’ll see just how lightning quick the “sky is falling” crew changes their tune.

I've been around long enough to see the leafs win rounds and know exactly how leafs nation responds to 2nd and 3rd round losses.

And it's no different than 1st round losses.
 
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The better team wins no excuses. You evaluate through stats but not results
Statistics are results. You only seem to care about one very specific result (who got to 4 wins first in a specific sample), but in hockey, that's not always the better team, and there are a lot of results and information we can look at to better evaluate what happened and why.
 
Statistics are results. You only seem to care about one very specific result (who got to 4 wins first in a specific sample), but in hockey, that's not always the better team, and there are a lot of results we can look at to better evaluate what happened and why.

The excuses for this team are unbelievable. Yes I care about winning, not stats that say we should have won or could have won. Is there a banner for losing but "being the better team"?

And the Leafs may have started off as the better team, but once they started losing, they did what they do best, collapse.
 
The excuses for this team are unbelievable. Yes I care about winning, not stats that say we should have won or could have won. Is there a banner for losing but "being the better team"?

And the Leafs may have started off as the better team, but once they started losing, they did what they do best, collapse.

Only one team is a winner every year.
 
The excuses for this team are unbelievable. Yes I care about winning, not stats that say we should have won or could have won.
They're not excuses. They're facts. We all care about winning, which is why some of us prefer to look at all of the information to better understand what happened and where we're at, so that we can build the best team and give ourselves the best chance of winning it all moving forward, instead of overreacting and thinking we suck because Montreal fluked out 4 games in a 7 game sample on the back of their hot goaltender, significant injuries to our team, and a couple OT wins.

Leafs were the better team, just like they were before, and just like they've been since, which is why, even by wins, they are 11-4-3 in all games against Montreal since the beginning of last season, playoffs included, and have a far superior record against the whole league. Montreal scraping out 1 more win in a 7 game sample within that doesn't instantly make them the better team.
 
Only one team is a winner every year.

Yes but it's not just the losing, it's the way they lose. It's the way they'll watch JT being cross-checked over and over and skate away. Or play against the isles in their captain's first game back and lay an egg. Or health care workers in the stands against the Habs and play like it's an exhibition game. Zamboni guy game. It's the total lack of compete that happens far, far too often. Every year we hear Muzzin say how easy they are to play against, we see 16 become ineffective and totally predictable, and a bone-head coach who didn't adapt.

This win streak has been great, but I want to see how they fare after the holidays when things tighten up. If that makes me anti-Dubas, or not a true fan, or negative, so be it.
 
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Yes but it's not just the losing, it's the way they lose.

Agreed that while losing itself is most important, they way a team loses matters greatly in evaluation them going forward.

From my perspective, the team has barely lost in the playoffs with every series going down to the wire, they outplayed the teams they were supposed to outplay, and the losses came down to one specific thing that I doubt will continue forever - I.e. their elite players haven't been able to score despite getting chances.

So if we agree that the "way they lose" is important, then for me the way this team has lost tells me they're still an elite team that just needs their elite scorers to finally produce at that level in the playoffs. This told me that the team would continue to be elite this year, and not a bubble team like some suggested.

So will the elite players finally produce at an elite level in the playoffs? I don't know, but I'd bet it's much more likely that they do rather than don't, and I sure hope when they do it's with our team.
 
You're not going to like the answers though my friend.

First off, the Leafs have only been the favorite in one series, last year right? It was the only series they were expected to win and they badly outplayed the Habs in the series as a whole (more dominant numbers over the series than they had on them during the regular season) and yet still lost. Why?

The numbers scream goaltending/shooting%/injuries (the most injured team in any first round I remember)

These are all considered to be the main luck stats in the game of hockey. It's not satisfying but the main issue with the team the last couple of years really was bad luck.

As far as final games go, there has been a ton of turnover the last 4 years but the Leafs stars have consistently been good in clutch games but the opposition goalies have, for whatever reason, put up elite performances against them....like the Leafs having an 18-3 scoring chance advantage with Matthews on the ice (One assist, a post hit) last year in game 7 and yet it's Campbell letting in the customary brutal game 7 softie to open the scoring (the only goal in the whole series scored on Matthews/Marner 5v5).

The stats from the final game last year were shots 31-23 Leafs, scoring chances 24-14 Leafs. It was a low event game won by the better goalie in the end. (feels like an endless loop here) Thats a lot of playoffs though (and why Tampa won the cup last year). Seeing as they failed to score worse than the Leafs in elimination games last year (especially their stars), are Tampas players a bunch of epic chokers saved by their goaltending? No one would say such a thing simply because they won....and their goalie stole them the cup last year (nice to be healthy too)

It's why there is so much hope this year really. The team wants to win and works its butts off but hasnt gotten the bounces. The hockey gods cant be so cruel as to not give us a bounce or two this next playoffs right? Even talking about 13 periods (while still leaving out all the elimination periods in between) is still a crazy small sample size that looks far more like bad luck than getting dominated in any way, shape or form. Hell, you could replay those same games and more often than not, the Leafs would win them too just based on run of play.

Gotta have faith in the best team we have seen in a generation and I dont even care about winning a round. I want a chance at the cup every year and this is a solid core to do it with as long as we can actually have even close to the better goalie in a series. If we just had equivilent goaltending, we easily win the last two years (and one of the Boston series IMO). Thats why I think its so important.

It's not that I don't like your answers, I always appreciate honest opinions. I will say that IMO you're very wrong though.

So getting outscored 15-2 with the season on the line has a lot to do with luck. That's a piss poor excuse IMO so agree to disagree I guess.

A lot to do with goaltending - so what? Win and lose as a team, goaltending is a part of the team. What does it matter if the main reason for losing is goaltending, coaching, poor defensive play, forwards failing to convert chances or whatever else? And if you don't think the last point I mentioned has been a huge factor then I think you have a blind spot. 2 goals in 10 periods, that sucks and it especially sucks for a team that is supposedly stacked and led by generational offensive talent.

As far as being favourites or underdogs goes, we were only slight underdogs both times against Boston, roughly even against CLB and massive favourites against MTL. Overall I would expect to go pretty close to 2-2 in that scenario in the long run so no excuses there either.

You say you don't care about winning a round, you want to win the cup. Winning a round is a part of the journey though and that's where it has to start. And winning a round is also better than not winning one - look at all the people going on about "enjoying regular season success". I agree with them, all success should be enjoyed but my experience has been that playoff success is much more enjoyable then regular season success, even if it is just "winning a round". I love winning rounds, bring it on!
 
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Yes but it's not just the losing, it's the way they lose.
Progress! You've finally admitted that there's more that matters in evaluating a team than the win-loss column in a specific small sample without context. Next up is acknowledging that your description of the "way they lose" is wildly inaccurate, according to both the eye test and every single possible metric out there. It's very easy to only see the negatives when a team you're emotionally invested in loses. It's important to take a step back and properly evaluate what happened.
 
So the leafs weren't favourites against Columbus, eh? Wow. That's a new one. Sinking to new lows I see.

And apparently a playoff series is just "luck" and too short of a sample size to conclude anything. Even 5 straight playoff series.

Here's something that I guarantee. That I flat out guarantee!!! If the leafs ever make a good playoff push and win multiple series, I GUARANTEE that those using the word "luck" here will exchange it for words like "talent" and "skill".

Just imagine how'd they react if the leafs won multiple playoff series and everyone just (lol) wrote it off as "luck".
 
So the leafs weren't favourites against Columbus, eh? Wow. That's a new one. Sinking to new lows I see.

And apparently a playoff series is just "luck" and too short of a sample size to conclude anything. Even 5 straight playoff series.

Here's something that I guarantee. That I flat out guarantee!!! If the leafs ever make a good playoff push and win multiple series, I GUARANTEE that those using the word "luck" here will exchange it for words like "talent" and "skill".

Just imagine how'd they react if the leafs won multiple playoff series and everyone just (lol) wrote it off as "luck".

Personally, I don't think it was just luck.
 
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Progress! You've finally admitted that there's more that matters in evaluating a team than the win-loss column in a specific small sample without context. Next up is acknowledging that your description of the "way they lose" is wildly inaccurate, according to both the eye test and every single possible metric out there. It's very easy to only see the negatives when a team you're emotionally invested in loses. It's important to take a step back and properly evaluate what happened.
Yes, fans can be emotional. Want to know what's most common about about emotions in fans? It's not "only seeing negatives". Not at all. What's FAR more common is fans refusing to see reality. THAT'S what the stereotypical fan does. They see things through rose colored glasses and delude themselves into thinking everything is hunky dory. And this can go REALLY far. Even to the extent of making lame excuses for FIVE straight first round losses and stat mining literal insanity to rationalize futility.

And you could ask pretty much any hockey fan the question "Are the playoffs pretty much an entirely different game than the regular season?" and pretty much 100% will answer "yes". Some posters in this thread refuse to acknowledge that. The leafs are much much better at more "pond hockey" style regular season hockey, and their star players get shut down when the whistles go away and teams clamp down.
 
What more can this team have possibly done this year to make the skeptics happy? If something, it would be nice to hear a clear articulation of what that is so that as leaf fans we may discuss it. If nothing, then kindly take a hike and go pester somebody equally deserving of the scorn many here have of you. You add nothing to the conversation and it is frankly not fun having to deal with people with a desire to spread their own misery day in and day out. I am frankly shocked that a thread meant to celebrate a sweep and a great winning trend is allowed to degenerate by mods who should be thread banning chronic off topic messaging and clear trolling.
I am a skeptic, so I'll chime in. The team cannot do anything during the regular season to make me believe in them. They could end the season 75-6-1 not losing anymore games and I still wouldn't believe in them. Until they win at least 1 playoff round I will not be excited. Until this happens I'll quietly observe and try not to post any negativity in this forum. But since you asked, this is my answer.
 
I am a skeptic, so I'll chime in. The team cannot do anything during the regular season to make me believe in them. They could end the season 75-6-1 not losing anymore games and I still wouldn't believe in them. Until they win at least 1 playoff round I will not be excited. Until this happens I'll quietly observe and try not to post any negativity in this forum. But since you asked, this is my answer.

Don't stop posting because a few posters call you negative. Fans have every right to be and this place would be a total bore with nothing but cheerleading
 
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