Leafs starting line-up 24/25

[The Shadow]

Knies-Matthews-McMann
Domi-Nylander-Jarnkrok
Pacioretty-Tavares-Grebenkin
Reaves-Kampf-Marner

What? How does that make any sense?

 

[notDatsyuk]

lets see 5v5 pts by tavares at 5v5 since 2010

2010-2011 16 goal 22 assist
2011-2012 19 goal 29 assist
2013-2014 16 goal 21 assist
2014-2015 22 goal 25 assist
2015-2016 22 goal 23 assist
2016-2017 15 goal 21 assist
2017-2018 18 goal 21 assist
2018-2019 33 goal 27 assist
2019-2020 13 goal 16 assist ( 63 gm)
2020-2021 11 goal 19 assist (56 gm)
2021-2022 15 goal 24 assist
2022-2023 16 goal 21 assist
2023-2024 15 goal 20 assist

Decline is really a big word right hereq

Do you stalk me with your weird takes?

Yes, if you actually use your eyes for watching hockey instead of just for searching for very selective stats that, taken completely out of context, look like they support your view, you could see his decline.


Even playing mainly with a winger whose play and production have gone steading up the last few years, JT's stats are still going down, even according to your very limited criteria.

 

[thusk]

Do you stalk me with your weird takes?

Yes, if you actually use your eyes for watching hockey instead of just for searching for very selective stats that, taken completely out of context, look like they support your view, you could see his decline.


Even playing mainly with a winger whose play and production have gone steading up the last few years, JT's stats are still going down, even according to your very limited criteria.

so for you the only reason why jt scoring basically at the same rate than he did his entire carreer last 5 years is Nylander... hahaha let's me laught

Eye test is nothing else than an opinion because you're seeing just what you want to see. When the player still producing at the same rate whatever who he had been playing with except his 1st year he played in toronto with marner and his production explode, normally its a good sign than your eye test is probably wrong.

sure you own opinion alone is a better criteria than what jt done last 14 year concretely

But i know you need to tell every body is dump to try to convince yourself than Nylander is even better

 

[pdson]

That’s how I can see the line up starting with Dewar and Minten injured.

Not a huge fan of the idea of Nylander and Domi on the same line. Also not a big fan of Matthews and Marner playing together, I’d rather split those two up to help our depth scoring.

 

[Mess]

What? How does that make any sense?

Any player making a double digit salary/AAV should be able to carry their own line.

Ideally that player is a Centre because their key building block positions. So strength down the middle.

Leafs have 4 players in the top 12 highest paid so 1 player per line to balance the offense.

 

[conFABulator]

Any player making a double digit salary/AAV should be able to carry their own line.

Ideally that player is a Centre because their key building block positions. So strength down the middle.

Leafs have 4 players in the top 12 highest paid so 1 player per line to balance the offense.

I get that the core four should each be able to drive or carry a line, but I think that makes much sense across three lines.

There's only 48 minutes of ES time per game. How would you distribute those mlnutes across four line? How could it make sense to only give Matthews 12 ES minutes a night? How would it make sense to give any of these guys less than this?

 

[brucioloco]

Do you stalk me with your weird takes?

Yes, if you actually use your eyes for watching hockey instead of just for searching for very selective stats that, taken completely out of context, look like they support your view, you could see his decline.


Even playing mainly with a winger whose play and production have gone steading up the last few years, JT's stats are still going down, even according to your very limited criteria.

Of course he’s on the decline, he’s on the final year of his contract. Years one through 3 he was worth more than $11 million, worth $11 roughly for years 4 and 5 and worth less for the final couple of years. That’s called “normal” in the NHL if you haven’t noticed before.

Also it’s no longer that dipshit Dubas’s team anymore so stop thinking the over built offence is correct. Average point production for a second line C across the league is 60-65P not a PPG so Tavares is still bang on for a roll on that line. There’s a couple league wide who hit 80P but there’s a bunch who only get around 40-50P, like Bennett on the most recent cup winners for instance.

The biggest issue with the leafs is playoff time for a very simple reason and it’s not the talent of their players. It’s because the stars all play the same bloody positions. C and RW. During the season they dominate because the opposition has a generalized D to play against every team’s style, whereas in the playoffs they focus on the team they play in each round. Due to this the leafs have been weak because they’re easy to defend against using the same defensive system against each line that allows a massive focus on the same positions.

 

[brucioloco]

Any player making a double digit salary/AAV should be able to carry their own line.

Ideally that player is a Centre because their key building block positions. So strength down the middle.

Leafs have 4 players in the top 12 highest paid so 1 player per line to balance the offense.

Expecting a player to be at his prime level of talent at the end of his long term UFA contract is flat out lunacy.

Beginning of contract: worth more
Middle of contract: worth it bang on
End of contract: worth less

That’s every long term deal for a UFA league wide.

 

[Mess]

I get that the core four should each be able to drive or carry a line, but I think that makes much sense across three lines.

There's only 48 minutes of ES time per game. How would you distribute those mlnutes across four line? How could it make sense to only give Matthews 12 ES minutes a night? How would it make sense to give any of these guys less than this?

Idealistically you're correct, but Leafs current salary structure does not support that. However a player should be paid on the merits of their own contributions and not gifted playing time based on their allocated ice time to validate ones contract.

An aging JT no longer capable speed wise to hold a top 6 position at centre could be moved the left wing with less defensive responsibilities and the bench shortened to 3 offensive lines, assisting a transitioning Nylander to his centre roll, and assisting on face-offs and required.

Knies-Matthews-McMann
Tavares--Nylander-Jarnkrok
Pacioretty-Domi- Marner
Reaves-Kampf-Grebenkin

However this is still a transition year and perhaps after this next season is complete the Leafs will only invest top value in centres as line drivers and then secondary and support players like wingers will be priced correctly if they need to ride shotgun with elite goal scoring players earning their salaries.

Perhaps Leafs even move away from the badly flawed plan of 4 forwards consuming 1/2 a teams salary cap and re-invest it better into other key core team building positions, like a top pairing #1 Dman who will drive the defense core, which will also then address your TOI/g allocation concern as suggested, with a big minute munching Dman playing 25-30 minutes at game, while making double digit salary if required.

 

[conFABulator]

Idealistically you're correct, but Leafs current salary structure does not support that. However a player should be paid on the merits of their own contributions and not gifted playing time based on their allocated ice time to validate ones contract.

An aging JT no longer capable speed wise to hold a top 6 position at centre could be moved the left wing with less defensive responsibilities and the bench shortened to 3 offensive lines, assisting a transitioning Nylander to his centre roll, and assisting on face-offs and required.

Knies-Matthews-McMann
Tavares--Nylander-Jarnkrok
Pacioretty-Domi- Marner
Reaves-Kampf-Grebenkin

However this is still a transition year and perhaps after this next season is complete the Leafs will only invest top value in centres as line drivers and then secondary and support players like wingers will be priced correctly if they need to ride shotgun with elite goal scoring players earning their salaries.

Perhaps Leafs even move away from the badly flawed plan of 4 forwards consuming 1/2 a teams salary cap and re-invest it better into other key core team building positions, like a top pairing #1 Dman who will drive the defense core, which will also then address your TOI/g allocation concern as suggested, with a big minute munching Dman playing 25-30 minutes at game, while making double digit salary if required.

I don't agree with the lineup choices, but I am sure not everyone agrees with mine, but I do like that you now have them across three lines and not four.

I like the following:

Knies Matthews Domi
XXXXX Nylander Marner
Robertson Tavares McMann

...with XXXXX being Pacioretty, Holmberg, Jarnkrok, Cowan or Grebyenkin (possibly A. Nylander I suppose).

Our fourth line options include the guys listed above that do not get the spot on Willy's line plus Dewar, Lorentz, Reaves, Steeves, Minten, and Kampf. We can see why with the doeth we have we should consider moving Kampf and Jarnkrok.

 

[Mess]

I don't agree with the lineup choices, but I am sure not everyone agrees with mine, but I do like that you now have them across three lines and not four.

I like the following:

Knies Matthews Domi
XXXXX Nylander Marner
Robertson Tavares McMann

...with XXXXX being Pacioretty, Holmberg, Jarnkrok, Cowan or Grebyenkin (possibly A. Nylander I suppose).

Our fourth line options include the guys listed above that do not get the spot on Willy's line plus Dewar, Lorentz, Reaves, Steeves, Minten, and Kampf. We can see why with the doeth we have we should consider moving Kampf and Jarnkrok.

Nylander was seen centering Max Domi and Calle Jarnkrok during the Toronto Maple Leafs' practice earlier today. It's certainly a change from the norm as Nylander has generally patrolled the wing on John Tavares' line in the top-6.

Of course, it's just the beginning of training camp and everything can change on a whim. However, it's still a good sign of what's to come. Changes are on the horizon, and after 5 years of Keefe behind the bench, Craig Berube is looking to set the tone with his personal touch.

 

[ToneDog]

Nylander was seen centering Max Domi and Calle Jarnkrok during the Toronto Maple Leafs' practice earlier today. It's certainly a change from the norm as Nylander has generally patrolled the wing on John Tavares' line in the top-6.

View attachment 908421

Of course, it's just the beginning of training camp and everything can change on a whim. However, it's still a good sign of what's to come. Changes are on the horizon, and after 5 years of Keefe behind the bench, Craig Berube is looking to set the tone with his personal touch.

So they are going to play Marner with Matthews so Marner can go on a 120 point pace and in January they will cave to his demands of $12.5mx8. Great plan. Wonder if Shanny came up with it by himself or he had help from the guy who claimed "we are not here to sell jerseys".

 

[arso40]

So they are going to play Marner with Matthews so Marner can go on a 120 point pace and in January they will cave to his demands of $12.5mx8. Great plan. Wonder if Shanny came up with it by himself or he had help from the guy who claimed "we are not here to sell jerseys".

right!!! talk about not making any sense if you want him to prove his worth play him with players that help show that not with player(s) that arguably prop him up and make him look better

 

[ToneDog]

right!!! talk about not making any sense if you want him to prove his worth play him with players that help show that not with player(s) that arguably prop him up and make him look better

Play him with Tavares and show us you deserve to be paid. Matty should be carrying Knies and another winger not named Marner.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Knies-Matthews-Marner
Domi-Nylander-Jarnkrok
Robertson-Tavares-McMann

 

[Arzak]

Knies-Matthews-McMann
Domi-Nylander-Jarnkrok
Pacioretty-Tavares-Grebenkin
Reaves-Kampf-Marner

^^ love it

Let 11M players do their thing. Plus 2 weeks in Mitch will wave, because while Leafs can afford to play Mitch for 13min a game on 4th, Mitch is waaaay too greedy to risk a down year entering UFA. Way way too greedy.

 

[Arzak]

Play him with Tavares and show us you deserve to be paid. Matty should be carrying Knies and another winger not named Marner.

That would be too much of a change. We already traded coach bruh, can we let Mitch collect his assists now?

 

[Rielly4]

Someones getting traded at the end of training camp to clear cap space right? Im assuming Kampf or Jarnkrok? Maybe if we run a 20 man roster we can make it work?

I see this being the best option right now:

Knies-Matthews-Domi
McMann-Nylander-Marner
Robertson-Tavares-Cowan
Dewar-Kampf-Jarnkrok
Reaves/Holmberg

Rielly-Tanev
Benoit-Mccabe
OEL-Hakanpa (For Playoffs, Lilly prob better for season)
Lilly

Nylander needs an amazing defensive winger like Marner, or at the very least our second best in Knies. Right now Jarnkrok is his defensive winger but thats not what you want for offense. Tavares gives us such a luxory as 3C because he can let us play two defensively irresponsible high offensive upside wingers there. That line can rack up a ton of points and JT is responsible defensively plus they have the wheels and energy to make up for his lack.

 

[hamzarocks]

Of course he’s on the decline, he’s on the final year of his contract. Years one through 3 he was worth more than $11 million, worth $11 roughly for years 4 and 5 and worth less for the final couple of years. That’s called “normal” in the NHL if you haven’t noticed before.

Also it’s no longer that dipshit Dubas’s team anymore so stop thinking the over built offence is correct. Average point production for a second line C across the league is 60-65P not a PPG so Tavares is still bang on for a roll on that line. There’s a couple league wide who hit 80P but there’s a bunch who only get around 40-50P, like Bennett on the most recent cup winners for instance.

The biggest issue with the leafs is playoff time for a very simple reason and it’s not the talent of their players. It’s because the stars all play the same bloody positions. C and RW. During the season they dominate because the opposition has a generalized D to play against every team’s style, whereas in the playoffs they focus on the team they play in each round. Due to this the leafs have been weak because they’re easy to defend against using the same defensive system against each line that allows a massive focus on the same positions.

Tavares was never worth 10M let alone 11M

He has been overpaid every year of his deal

He has been a 8-9M player for Y1-5 and then 5-6M last year

he is likely a 3-4M player the next 2-3 years

Tavares career high is 88 pts as a leaf, that type of production will get Nylander trade demand threats at 11.5M from this fanbase

Tavarew was the biggest blunder leafs have made since 2016

 

[Maple Leaf]

Any player making a double digit salary/AAV should be able to carry their own line.

Ideally that player is a Centre because their key building block positions. So strength down the middle.

Leafs have 4 players in the top 12 highest paid so 1 player per line to balance the offense.

? who decided that was a good idea?

 

[notDatsyuk]

so for you the only reason why jt scoring basically at the same rate than he did his entire carreer last 5 years is Nylander... hahaha let's me laught

Eye test is nothing else than an opinion because you're seeing just what you want to see. When the player still producing at the same rate whatever who he had been playing with except his 1st year he played in toronto with marner and his production explode, normally its a good sign than your eye test is probably wrong.

sure you own opinion alone is a better criteria than what jt done last 14 year concretely

But i know you need to tell every body is dump to try to convince yourself than Nylander is even better

Try reading what I wrote and replying to it, rather than to what you think I wrote.

I know it's a waste of time, but I'll try once more:

"Even playing mainly with a winger whose play and production have gone steading up the last few years, JT's stats are still going down, even according to your very limited criteria."

 

[notDatsyuk]

Of course he’s on the decline, he’s on the final year of his contract. Years one through 3 he was worth more than $11 million, worth $11 roughly for years 4 and 5 and worth less for the final couple of years. That’s called “normal” in the NHL if you haven’t noticed before.

Also it’s no longer that dipshit Dubas’s team anymore so stop thinking the over built offence is correct. Average point production for a second line C across the league is 60-65P not a PPG so Tavares is still bang on for a roll on that line. There’s a couple league wide who hit 80P but there’s a bunch who only get around 40-50P, like Bennett on the most recent cup winners for instance.

The biggest issue with the leafs is playoff time for a very simple reason and it’s not the talent of their players. It’s because the stars all play the same bloody positions. C and RW. During the season they dominate because the opposition has a generalized D to play against every team’s style, whereas in the playoffs they focus on the team they play in each round. Due to this the leafs have been weak because they’re easy to defend against using the same defensive system against each line that allows a massive focus on the same positions.

I'm quite aware that he's on the decline, which I'm trying to point out to a couple of posters who don't seem to be able to see that. And I certainly never said the "over built offence is correct".

I happen to think his contract was too high for a player expected to be a 2C for most of his time here, but I have never blamed JT for that.

As far as the fact that few second line centres get 60-65 points, how many second line wingers get close to 100?

I agree to an extent about the playoff situation, but the two lines are different in that one line has a dominant C and a winger who is easily neutralized, while the other line is the reverse.

 

[namttebih]

I get that the core four should each be able to drive or carry a line, but I think that makes much sense across three lines.

There's only 48 minutes of ES time per game. How would you distribute those mlnutes across four line? How could it make sense to only give Matthews 12 ES minutes a night? How would it make sense to give any of these guys less than this?

This is exactly what I was about to respond to his post. I like the Idea of running 3 lines driven my Matthews, Marner and Nylander. I'm still not even sure if there's enough ice time, but Nylander's line would more than likely be used in limited settings.

Knies Matthews Domi

Possible break out season for Knies. Big body, puck retrieval. Domi's play making and Matthews' scoring. Domi the one week link defensively.

20 minutes a night

Robertson Tavares Marner

Have Marner feed Robertson. Marner and Tavares defensively responsible. Give Robertson a chance to prove himself. Give him more than a quick look. Have Mitch show him how to avoid getting hurt with a small frame. Give him a specific job in hopes that he truly becomes a leader. Mentor Nick.

18 mins


McMann Nylander Jarnkrok

Have Nylander flanked by defensively responsible guys with 20 goal potential.

16 mins - which is less than you would want Willy to play, but give him a year. Give him an actual chance to play the position in hopes that he can take Tavares' spot the following year.

Pacioretty Kampf Holmberg

All D zone starts obviously. Pacioretty has received Selke votes in the past.

12 mins

 

[conFABulator]

This is exactly what I was about to respond to his post. I like the Idea of running 3 lines driven my Matthews, Marner and Nylander. I'm still not even sure if there's enough ice time, but Nylander's line would more than likely be used in limited settings.

Knies Matthews Domi

Possible break out season for Knies. Big body, puck retrieval. Domi's play making and Matthews' scoring. Domi the one week link defensively.

20 minutes a night

Robertson Tavares Marner

Have Marner feed Robertson. Marner and Tavares defensively responsible. Give Robertson a chance to prove himself. Give him more than a quick look. Have Mitch show him how to avoid getting hurt with a small frame. Give him a specific job in hopes that he truly becomes a leader. Mentor Nick.

18 mins


McMann Nylander Jarnkrok

Have Nylander flanked by defensively responsible guys with 20 goal potential.

16 mins - which is less than you would want Willy to play, but give him a year. Give him an actual chance to play the position in hopes that he can take Tavares' spot the following year.

Pacioretty Kampf Holmberg

All D zone starts obviously. Pacioretty has received Selke votes in the past.

12 mins

The total minutes are over 60, is that because we run four forwards on the PP?

Your lines are good and I get what you ware doing. I really want to see if Marner can be Nylander's winger. If those two click it's hard to imagine a better two lines in the NHL.

Knies Matthews Domi (20)
XXXXX Nylander Marner (19)
Robertson Tavares McMann (15)
Holmberg Kampf Jarnkrok (12)

XXXXX could be Pacioretty, Holmberg, Jarnkrok, Grebyenkin, or Cowan

 

[thusk]

Try reading what I wrote and replying to it, rather than to what you think I wrote.

I know it's a waste of time, but I'll try once more:

"Even playing mainly with a winger whose play and production have gone steading up the last few years, JT's stats are still going down, even according to your very limited criteria."

my limited critera hahaha when you just talking with your eye-test view, it's very funny

so let's see statistically the nylander production steading up at 5v5


2016-2017 11 goal 20 assists 31 pts
2017-2018 12 goal 33 assists 45 pts
2018-2019 6 goal 15 assist in 54 game
( 32 pts
2019-2020 19 goal 19 assist 38 pts
2020-2021 11 goal 15 assist in 51 game (18 goal 24 assist for a complete season) 42 pts
2021-2022 18 goal 22 assist 40 pts
2022-2023 22 foal 27 assist 49 pts
2023-2024 22 goal 23 assist 45 pts

the 45 pts in 2017-2018 in my mind is = at the same number of 45 pts in 2023-2024...no? The main difference is since he was playing with JT, his number of goal raised