Confirmed with Link: Leafs sign F Auston Matthews to extension (4 years, $13.25M AAV)

[pcruz]

Have you looked at Leon and McD playoff points?
I think in the 2022 playoffs alone, both got as many points as AM and MM in their career.

You can argue McD and Leon didn’t make the playoffs as often as AM and MM but when you compare to the rest of the players on the team, you can’t deny the Leafs are always better with better supporting players. The fact that Ennis was a 4th liner with the Leafs and the following year, Oilers traded for him to play with McD shows what type of depth and Dumb MGT decisions Oilers made.

I would just stop comparing McD to any players bc McD is on a completely different tiers than anybody else.

How many playoff points are sufficient for the people I'm talking about to accept in lieu of winning a cup, and call it "winning"?


The argument has been that the individual awards don't matter.
The points and individual stats don't matter.
Winning a cup is all that matters with regards to whether a player is worthy of being paid.


At the same time:

Other players are held to the standard that they perform so well individually, that winning is not a factor in their contract valuation.


That's what is called hypocrisy.



Personally, I think that player contracts are and should always be, tied to individual performance.

I do put more importance on playoff performance, but it's an individual matter that has to judged on individual stats (goals, points, games played, awards).

For that reason, I personally believe McDavid is deserving of being the highest paid player in the league, but because I believe that, I also believe that Matthews is deserving of being the highest paid player right now until McDavid renews (or Draisaitl- whoever is first up).


And anyone who will argue for McDavid and not for Matthews, in the matter of contract value, is being hypocritical.

Anyone who will point at Mackinnon and argue that he deserves to be paid more than a younger and more individually successful player, is arguing in bad faith.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think the hypocrisy comes when people try and diminish the things Matthews has done in his career or even Marner with lack of playoff success but then that is never applied to Leon or Connor who have also shit the bed in the playoffs and are better players than Matthews and Marner. So why are they not held to the same standard?

Have a look at playoff production vs regular season production and I think you'll find that M&M drop off substantially in the playoffs in a way that McDavid and Draisaitl do not.

 

[MCR74]

The Sens forum is hilarious. l just read something to the effect that the Matthews deal is great for Ottawa because Auston doesn't have it in him to compete in the playoffs.

 

[pcruz]

Have a look at playoff production vs regular season production and I think you'll find that M&M drop off substantially in the playoffs in a way that McDavid and Draisaitl do not.

Is that the new bar?

I thought it was that you get paid if you win, and until you win a cup, you don't deserve shit.

I see the stances against Matthews shift and sway so much, it feels like watching the tides.

 

[francis246]

Have you looked at Leon and McD playoff points?
I think in the 2022 playoffs alone, both got as many points as AM and MM in their career.

You can argue McD and Leon didn’t make the playoffs as often as AM and MM but when you compare to the rest of the players on the team, you can’t deny the Leafs are always better with better supporting players. The fact that Ennis was a 4th liner with the Leafs and the following year, Oilers traded for him to play with McD shows what type of depth and Dumb MGT decisions Oilers made.

I would just stop comparing McD to any players bc McD is on a completely different tiers than anybody else.

Who the fck cares how many points they score if they don’t ultimately win the cup right? At the end of the day you can’t move the goalposts. If our top players are being held to that standard so should the rest of the league. Just as many of you say you’d trade points for wins. I’m pretty sure oilers fans feel the same way.

When it comes to contracts we already knew Matthews and McDavid will continually swap who will have the highest paid. Not sure why it’s a big issue. That’s the way sports has always worked, especially two franchise centers who went 1 first overall I’m back to back years.

 

[Captain Crunch]

If you mean repeat of being one of the best teams in the league, sure, if Treliving doesn't mess things up.
If you mean repeat of the specific playoff outcomes we've had over the past 5 years, no. Playoff outcomes are always changing.

But the end result has been the same, except we did get thru round 1 (we don’t need to remind everyone about how we caved in round 2).

 

[francis246]

Have a look at playoff production vs regular season production and I think you'll find that M&M drop off substantially in the playoffs in a way that McDavid and Draisaitl do not.

My whole point is production doesn’t matter if it doesn’t lead to wins. Is that not what everyone has said on this forum year after year? If anything Edmonton is proof of how vital defense and goaltending is. You can have your best players operating at insane rates and it’s still not enough to win.

 

[PromisedLand]

i wonder what the "cap hit" would look like in the context of this news

 

[Gabriel426]

How many playoff points are sufficient for the people I'm talking about to accept in lieu of winning a cup, and call it "winning"?


The argument has been that the individual awards don't matter.
The points and individual stats don't matter.
Winning a cup is all that matters with regards to whether a player is worthy of being paid.


At the same time:

Other players are held to the standard that they perform so well individually, that winning is not a factor in their contract valuation.


That's what is called hypocrisy.



Personally, I think that player contracts are and should always be, tied to individual performance.

I do put more importance on playoff performance, but it's an individual matter that has to judged on individual stats (goals, points, games played, awards).

For that reason, I personally believe McDavid is deserving of being the highest paid player in the league, but because I believe that, I also believe that Matthews is deserving of being the highest paid player right now until McDavid renews (or Draisaitl- whoever is first up).


And anyone who will argue for McDavid and not for Matthews, in the matter of contract value, is being hypocritical.

Anyone who will point at Mackinnon and argue that he deserves to be paid more than a younger and more individually successful player, is arguing in bad faith.

There are a few things here:

1. Playoff success matters as that’s part of the player but at the same time, if a player never played in the playoffs or very little, that should not hurt said players assessment.
2. Just bc some are saying AM should not be the highest paid player or not as good as Mack, it doesn’t mean he sucks.
3. You are literally telling everyone to F off when they state Mack deserves more than AM.

This is how I look at it, if McD is also a UFA today, I think we can agree that he deserves the Max. The max contract is 20%, and that’s 16.7mil/yr.
In my opinion, I think McD is 25% better than anyone else in the league. 16.7mil less 25% is 12.525mil. Ofcourse, Mack should not be 12.6mil based on my calculations as he signed last year but he did led his team to a Cup.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Is that the new bar?

I thought it was that you get paid if you win, and until you win a cup, you don't deserve shit.

I see the stances against Matthews shift and sway so much, it feels like watching the tides.

Everyone seems to have their own standards for how they judge players but I won't deduct points if a guy has the misfortune of playing on a bad team. But M&M play on a good team that constantly underperforms in big games and it's not like they've been playing great and the team falls apart around them, they deserve a lot of blame for our playoff failures.

That's JMHO of course. They're both humungously talented players, maybe they'll both shine and help us go on a run next spring, anything's possible.

 

[francis246]

Is that the new bar?

I thought it was that you get paid if you win, and until you win a cup, you don't deserve shit.

I see the stances against Matthews shift and sway so much, it feels like watching the tides.

People will say anything just to shit on Matthews; Marner and Nylander. It’s actually crazy. They hold our players to this incredibly insane standard and move the goal posts when it comes to other players.

Everyone seems to have their own standards for how they judge players but I won't deduct points if a guy has the misfortune of playing on a bad team. But M&M play on a good team that constantly underperforms in big games and it's not like they've been playing great and the team falls apart around them, they deserve a lot of blame for our playoff failures.

That's JMHO of course. They're both humungously talented players, maybe they'll both shine and help us go on a run next spring, anything's possible.

Come on man, now the oilers are a “bad team”?

 

[Gary Nylund]

My whole point is production doesn’t matter if it doesn’t lead to wins. Is that not what everyone has said on this forum year after year? If anything Edmonton is proof of how vital defense and goaltending is. You can have your best players operating at insane rates and it’s still not enough to win.

Everyone is a big word, be careful when using that.

Isn't it pretty much a unanimous opinion that McDavid is the best player in the league even though the team has never won the President's Trophy or the Stanley Cup? I don't think they've even come close to winning either of those things, yet people keep voting for McDavid for individual awards, why do you think that is?

 

[pcruz]

There are a few things here:

1. Playoff success matters as that’s part of the player but at the same time, if a player never played in the playoffs or very little, that should not hurt said players assessment.
2. Just bc some are saying AM should not be the highest paid player or not as good as Mack, it doesn’t mean he sucks.
3. You are literally telling everyone to F off when they state Mack deserves more than AM.

This is how I look at it, if McD is also a UFA today, I think we can agree that he deserves the Max. The max contract is 20%, and that’s 16.7mil/yr.
In my opinion, I think McD is 25% better than anyone else in the league. 16.7mil less 25% is 12.525mil. Ofcourse, Mack should not be 12.6mil based on my calculations as he signed last year but he did led his team to a Cup.

Let me reply with:

1. The goalposts have shifted so much on that stance that I don't even know where the current tide is. Is it necessary or not, to have won a cup in order to be the highest paid player int he league? Who knows what the current consensus is in that matter.

2. It's not about who sucks and who doesn't. It's about individual player contracts and who is more valuable financially to his team.

3. Yes. Absolutely. Although I admire Mackinnon, I don't see a single argument for why he would merit a higher salary than a younger and much more successful player.


Why would McDavid deserve a max contract with no collective hardware and 0 wins past the 2nd round of the playoffs while Matthews is somehow overpaid at 13.25 million with 0 wins past the 2nd round of the playoffs, if the bar for judging player values is post season success?

If the bar is not post season success, then there is not a single argument in the world for Mackinnon to be paid in the same stratosphere as Matthews, never mind McDavid.


So, I ask again.

What do you take into consideration with regards to how a player should be paid?

Individual performances, or "winning"?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Come on man, now the oilers are a “bad team”?

I didn't mean them specifically, I meant that as a general statement. Like Perrault always played for bad teams and Park never won a cup yet was an all-time great etc.

As far as Edmonton goes, they haven't been great in the playoffs correct? And isn't that what some people are arguing - that McDavid hasn't won the cup so if we don't hold that against him when judging him, why should we hold it against M&M?

The difference is, McDavid over his career has played much, much better in the playoffs than M&M, it's that simple and therefore the fact that EDM has never won the cup should not be held against him.

 

[francis246]

Everyone is a big word, be careful when using that.

Isn't it pretty much a unanimous opinion that McDavid is the best player in the league even though the team has never won the President's Trophy or the Stanley Cup? I don't think they've even come close to winning either of those things, yet people keep voting for McDavid for individual awards, why do you think that is?

Yes and your point is?

I’ve already said McDavid is the best player in the NHL. Being a good individual player has nothing to do with the team as you just pointed out. Yet people on this BOARD continually diminish the individual success of our susperstars because of a lack of team success. We’ve even had people goes as far as saying as they could care less about the regular season. So what’s up with that? Why is it so easy for people to seperate and celebrate McDavid’s accomplishments despite a lack of team success but not do the same for Matthews or Marner? It’s hypocritical.

 

[pcruz]

Everyone is a big word, be careful when using that.

Isn't it pretty much a unanimous opinion that McDavid is the best player in the league even though the team has never won the President's Trophy or the Stanley Cup? I don't think they've even come close to winning either of those things, yet people keep voting for McDavid for individual awards, why do you think that is?

Because it's incredibly stupid and short sighted to use team success when evaluating an individual player.

And that is the exact premise of the argument for why Matthews is worthy of being the highest paid player going into next season - he has the luxury of signing a new contract that kicks in then, combined with the most individual success.

It's a team game in order to win. It's an individual business when negotiating contracts and when handing out awards.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Let me reply with:

1. The goalposts have shifted so much on that stance that I don't even know where the current tide is. Is it necessary or not, to have won a cup in order to be the highest paid player int he league? Who knows what the current consensus is in that matter.

2. It's not about who sucks and who doesn't. It's about individual player contracts and who is more valuable financially to his team.

3. Yes. Absolutely. Although I admire Mackinnon, I don't see a single argument for why he would merit a higher salary than a younger and much more successful player.


Why would McDavid deserve a max contract with no collective hardware and 0 wins past the 2nd round of the playoffs while Matthews is somehow overpaid at 13.25 million with 0 wins past the 2nd round of the playoffs, if the bar for judging player values is post season success?

If the bar is not post season success, then there is not a single argument in the world for Mackinnon to be paid in the same stratosphere as Matthews, never mind McDavid.


So, I ask again.

What do you take into consideration with regards to how a player should be paid?

Individual performances, or "winning"?

If we're judging individual players, then it's individual performance that counts, not team performance. And playoffs matter more than the regular season. Simple.

JMHO.

 

[Stephen]

I think you’re missing the point. No one is saying McDavid is comparable to Matthews regular season wise. The point is McDavid really hasn’t had a ton of playoff success. He’s made the second round twice but has not done much other than that and has made the playoffs less than Matthews has in his career to date.

I think the hypocrisy comes when people try and diminish the things Matthews has done in his career or even Marner with lack of playoff success but then that is never applied to Leon or Connor who have also shit the bed in the playoffs and are better players than Matthews and Marner. So why are they not held to the same standard?

Well for one, McDavid and Draisaitl are much more productive players than Matthews and Marner in the playoffs. The Oilers lose but for different reasons and it isn’t offense drying up.

But even if we hypothetically assigned McDavid the same disappointing playoff record as Matthews, you can’t draw equivalency between the two because McDavid has a 300 point cushion in career points to Matthews.

To illustrate how big of a difference that is, McDavid’s point lead on Matthews is currently 308 points at 850 to 542.

Matthews and Zach Hyman COMBINED have 864 points. Only 14 more than McDavid.

This isn’t to dunk on Matthews, it’s just to illustrate how unflattering this whataboutism line of dialogue actually is when you want to compare the two together.

 

[francis246]

I didn't mean them specifically, I meant that as a general statement. Like Perrault always played for bad teams and Park never won a cup yet was an all-time great etc.

As far as Edmonton goes, they haven't been great in the playoffs correct? And isn't that what some people are arguing - that McDavid hasn't won the cup so if we don't hold that against him when judging him, why should we hold it against M&M?

The difference is, McDavid over his career has played much, much better in the playoffs than M&M, it's that simple and therefore the fact that EDM has never won the cup should not be held against him.

Just gonna put this out here, McDavid had 8 even strength points this playoffs. Guy is a stud no question though. Definitely wish we got him in 2015 honestly, but it is what it is.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yes and your point is?

I’ve already said McDavid is the best player in the NHL. Being a good individual player has nothing to do with the team as you just pointed out. Yet people on this BOARD continually diminish the individual success of our susperstars because of a lack of team success. We’ve even had people goes as far as saying as they could care less about the regular season. So what’s up with that? Why is it so easy for people to seperate and celebrate McDavid’s accomplishments despite a lack of team success but not do the same for Matthews or Marner? It’s hypocritical.

The fact that the team loses should not be held against M&M or any other player. However, when their production drops off in the playoffs and they keep coming up short in the biggest games of the year, that's another story.

Rielly played great in the playoffs and the fact that the team lost change the fact that pretty much everyone acknowledges that he played great. How do you explain that?

M&M didn't play that great, had they played up to their potential the way Rielly did, then maybe people wouldn't be complaining about that either.

Here's a simple example - did you see Marner play in game 3 against Florida? That was a stinker for the ages but here's the thing, I'm not criticizing Marner because we lost that game, I'm criticizing him because he played like shit.

Does that help explain where I stand?

 

[Stephen]

Because it's incredibly stupid and short sighted to use team success when evaluating an individual player.

And that is the exact premise of the argument for why Matthews is worthy of being the highest paid player going into next season - he has the luxury of signing a new contract that kicks in then, combined with the most individual success.

It's a team game in order to win. It's an individual business when negotiating contracts and when handing out awards.

Team success is the only thing that really matters and individual accomplishment should be aligned for collective achievement.

That’s not to poo poo Matthews and say he doesn’t deserve to be highest paid this round. But it’s team over everything and everyone else.

 

[francis246]

Well for one, McDavid and Draisaitl are much more productive players than Matthews and Marner in the playoffs. The Oilers lose but for different reasons and it isn’t offense drying up.

But even if we hypothetically assigned McDavid the same disappointing playoff record as Matthews, you can’t draw equivalency between the two because McDavid has a 300 point cushion in career points to Matthews.

To illustrate how big of a difference that is, McDavid’s point lead on Matthews is currently 308 points at 850 to 542.

Matthews and Zach Hyman COMBINED have 864 points. Only 14 more than McDavid.

This isn’t to dunk on Matthews, it’s just to illustrate how unflattering this whataboutism line of dialogue actually is when you want to compare the two together.

But that goes to my other point I posted earlier in the thread and got crucified for it. Why the hell should Matthews be crucified for taking his value as being the best goal scorer in the league when other superstars take below their value as a superstar? It goes down to the point I made earlier, hockey players are just stupid when it comes to their own self worth and structuring their contracts. McDavid if he could go back probably would have taken a 5 year deal instead of an 8. But I think it’s completely unreasonable to expect Matthews to take less than McDavid based on a contract that was signed 6 years ago. It’s not Matthews fault they aren’t expiring around the same time.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If anything one season with the most relevance to contract negotiation/predicting future performance is the last one.

One could argue that the most recent sample has slightly more relevance, but one cannot argue that everything else is irrelevant. There is more to Nylander's valuation than just raw goals in the most recent season.

 

[francis246]

The fact that the team loses should not be held against M&M or any other player. However, when their production drops off in the playoffs and they keep coming up short in the biggest games of the year, that's another story.

Rielly played great in the playoffs and the fact that the team lost change the fact that pretty much everyone acknowledges that he played great. How do you explain that?

M&M didn't play that great, had they played up to their potential the way Rielly did, then maybe people wouldn't be complaining about that either.

Here's a simple example - did you see Marner play in game 3 against Florida? That was a stinker for the ages but here's the thing, I'm not criticizing Marner because we lost that game, I'm criticizing him because he played like shit.

Does that help explain where I stand?

Fair point, I see where you’re coming from. For you it’s more about the reduction of performance coming from good regular seasons.

 

[Mess]

I think you’re missing the point. No one is saying McDavid is comparable to Matthews regular season wise. The point is McDavid really hasn’t had a ton of playoff success. He’s made the second round twice but has not done much other than that and has made the playoffs less than Matthews has in his career to date.

I think the hypocrisy comes when people try and diminish the things Matthews has done in his career or even Marner with lack of playoff success but then that is never applied to Leon or Connor who have also shit the bed in the playoffs and are better players than Matthews and Marner. So why are they not held to the same standard?

Have you seen McDavid & Leon Draisaitl last 2 playoff seasons? You seem to be blaming Edmonton's success and record on them when they have both been excellent in the playoffs.

In 2021-22 McDavid had 2 PPG pace in the playoffs and he has 53 points combined in the last 2 playoff years.

In 2021-22 He had 32 points in 16 games that is a 2 PPG pace in the playoffs. IN 22-23 playoffs he scored 13 goals in 12 playoff games > then a goal a game pace in the playoffs. He has 50 playoff points combined last 2 playoffs.

Name a Maple player that comes anywhere near that come playoff time?

Auston Matthews in his entire Leafs career and 7 seasons has a combined 22 goals and 44 points where both Connor and Leon have more playoff points the last 2 seasons.

Marner has 10 playoff goals total in 7 playoff season now making $10.9 mil vs Draisaitl who scored 13 playoff goals last year alone for $8.5 mil.

In 7 playoff years Leafs 2 top players can't outscore Edmonton 2 stars using only last 2 years stats.