Line Combos: Leafs roster [Before] & [After] and work in progress

[egd27]

Indeed. Basically is shows us that every team that wins the cup has a few guys that put up some points, I think we all know that without any charts. Plus it says nothing about how the number of "stars" on those teams compares to all the the teams in the league so for all we know, teams with more "stars" don't do all that well. Not saying that's the case, just saying that as usual, raw numbers without a bunch of context don't mean a heck of a lot.

The Rangers missed the playoffs with more stars than the Lightning using that criteria.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The Rangers missed the playoffs with more stars than the Lightning using that criteria.

LOL, there you go, that chart is basically useless information.

 

[Eb]

The Rangers missed the playoffs with more stars than the Lightning using that criteria.

Except, that isn't true.

 

[Racer88]

Yzerman, Ovechkin, Sakic...how long did it take these guys, and the managers to build around them, to win? It's pretty normal.

I would argue that most of those names you mentioned those players were pretty good performers right from the start

 

[Racer88]

Except, that isn't true.

I would love to know who is the Leafs 5 stars

 

[Gary Nylund]

Not that you care, but in his model, he classifies "Stars" as career PPG +0.7 ppg (forwards). (career +0.45ppg for dmen)

I just noticed the bolded which means Thornton qualified as a star for the Leafs. Good grief.

I think what I just said to you in another thread applies perfectly here - taking these charts, models and whatever else seriously would be a big mistake, it's entertainment designed to sell subscriptions, period.

 

[Eb]

I just noticed the bolded which means Thornton qualified as a star for the Leafs. Good grief.

I think what I just said to you in another thread applies perfectly here - taking these charts, models and whatever else seriously would be a big mistake, it's entertainment designed to sell subscriptions, period.

No, he isn't. From the thread:

"For instance, Joe Thornton is a star and produced gigantically over his career. His career totals will always make him a star in the model but currently he's not a star. His star days have passed him. So if the Leafs won the cup this year, he wouldn't be considered a star."

 

[Gary Nylund]

Not that you care, but in his model, he classifies "Stars" as career PPG +0.7 ppg (forwards). (career +0.45ppg for dmen)

No, he isn't. From the thread:

"For instance, Joe Thornton is a star and produced gigantically over his career. His career totals will always make him a star in the model but currently he's not a star. His star days have passed him. So if the Leafs won the cup this year, he wouldn't be considered a star."

So he's not a star, but the model considers him to be a star. Like I said, the model sucks.

 

[Eb]

So he's not a star, but the model considers him to be a star. Like I said, the model sucks.

No, he's not classified as one Toronto's stars. There's more caveats than just that career 0.7PPG I mentioned. Case and point, Thornton not being classified a star. Which I think we can both agree with is a good caveat here.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No, he's not classified as one Toronto's stars. There's more caveats than just that career 0.7PPG I mentioned. Case and point, Thornton not being classified a star. Which I think we can both agree with is a good caveat here.

I just quoted what you posted which qualifies Thornton as a star according to that model. Which post of yours contains these caveats?

 

[Eb]

I just quoted what you posted which qualifies Thornton as a star according to that model. Which post of yours contains these caveats?

I didn't include those caveats in that initial comment. I'm sorry, Gary. How would you like to move on from here?

 

[myleafs]

I'm sorry, but, your Captain being nearly decapitated in the 1st game 1st period does quality as 'unlucky' ...they didnt finish out the series, and there is no excuse for that, but, you cant 'make' your own luck out of the Tavares situation.
If Kucherov got knocked out in game 1, period 1 TB doesnt win the Cup, and that is a certainty
Somtimes, 'luck' is your players not getting hurt, or you get a crossbar and in, rather than out, or Hyman's butt doesnt block an open net gimmie of a goal in the series clinching game. ...that is 'luck' also, but, for the other team.

Ill take that bet

 

[myleafs]

McDavid for sure and MacKinnon is pretty close now

Mackinnon showed up. He had 15 pts in 10 games with 8 goals.

 

[myleafs]

The roster is the roster.... The same holds true today, as it did at the start of last season, and the start of the playoffs. We need our best players, to be our best players, and healthy. When they are, we can compete with anyone. If they aren't our best players, when it counts, we won't. We need regular season version of Marner, in the playoffs, and we need all of our young guys to step up and compete. It's a learning process, that takes time, and sometimes patience. Leafs Nation lacks patience, at an extreme level.

Im not sure how to respond to that...I mean...really?

 

[Gary Nylund]

I didn't include those caveats in that initial comment. I'm sorry, Gary. How would you like to move on from here?

Ah, that explains the confusion. No worries, it happens. I dunno, move on to some other topic of discussion I guess, I think I've probably had enough modeling for one day.

 

[mydnyte]

Ill take that bet

really?
you take away his scoring and you think they still win?
he was running the offense, not a secondary leech. Point doesnt score as much if he didnt have Kuch setting him up in the slot all the time.

23GP

8g

24a

32 points

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Racer88]

No, he isn't. From the thread:

"For instance, Joe Thornton is a star and produced gigantically over his career. His career totals will always make him a star in the model but currently he's not a star. His star days have passed him. So if the Leafs won the cup this year, he wouldn't be considered a star."

Why does this chart show Montreal with zero stars……did the forget Carry Price?

 

[egd27]

Why does this chart show Montreal with zero stars……did the forget Carry Price?

Price? His P/60 and xG numbers are awful.

 

[Racer88]

Price? His P/60 and xG numbers are awful.

He sure kicked our buts…….
Or was that sarcasm lol

 

[zeke]

When you ask a question that seems to have no relevance to the subject at hand and you're unable to explain any relevance when asked, it is you who has failed. I'm here to discuss the team I love, not to be quizzed by you about other teams that I don't care about. Capiche?

And you're still unable to admit you were wrong about anything, even when it's been proven. Here's a newsflash for you - nobody's as smart as you think you are.

I notice you ignored the rest of my post, gee I wonder why. Sure you don't want to see some more stats?

You continue to run away from a simple question, both proving the relevance of the question and your inability to answer it to demonstrate any consistency or objectivity whatsoever.

What makes it all the more hilarious is the you are the one that runs around angrily demanding that everyone your inane questions.

 

[zeke]

At this point the Leafs can play pretty well any team in the first round in the bottom half of the league and be at serious risk of losing in a best of 7.

It's not even disputable anymore.

Columbus wasn't a playoff team and the Habs wouldn't even have qualified for the playoffs in a regular year.

Leafs still lost.

Would you trade rosters with them?

Definitely.

While other teams are focused on chasing playoff success and winning Cups, the Leafs are chasing the blogger stats crown.

Interesting. Do you realize the bloggers have largely not liked dubas' moves the last couple years?

 

[Mess]

I'm sorry, but, your Captain being nearly decapitated in the 1st game 1st period does quality as 'unlucky' ...they didnt finish out the series, and there is no excuse for that, but, you cant 'make' your own luck out of the Tavares situation.
If Kucherov got knocked out in game 1, period 1 TB doesnt win the Cup, and that is a certainty
Somtimes, 'luck' is your players not getting hurt, or you get a crossbar and in, rather than out, or Hyman's butt doesnt block an open net gimmie of a goal in the series clinching game. ...that is 'luck' also, but, for the other team.

Tampa Bay played the entire 56 game regular season without Kucherov and finished with 2 less points than Toronto who won the North.

Tampa Bay also won the 2019-20 Stanley Cup and their captain Steven Stamkos played in only 1 of TB 24 playoff games. In fact he only played 2:47 TOI in the entire playoffs. Tavares played 2:53 TOI in the playoffs for the Leafs this year.

NYI's without Tavares and without their own captain and leading goal scorer Anders Lee (whom accounted for 100 goals over the last 3+ seasons) went to the final 4 this year.

Some good teams must not live on luck to be successful.

 

[keonsbitterness]

To disregard luck's effect in hockey is being complete naive.

If luck matters more in hockey than other team sports (which intuitively seems true because it's played on ice), then doesn't that make hockey analytics far less reliable than other sports analytics?

 

[myleafs]

really?
you take away his scoring and you think they still win?
he was running the offense, not a secondary leech. Point doesnt score as much if he didnt have Kuch setting him up in the slot all the time.

23GP

8g

24a

32 points

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Your comment was it was a certainty they don't win without him. I think they take a good run at it even without him, as awesome as he is. Stamkos was out the year before and they won. Stamkos, Hedman, Point, Vas, the whole 3rd line. That is a good team that knows what it takes to win, I wouldn't bet against them.

 

[Havoc]

If luck matters more in hockey than other team sports (which intuitively seems true because it's played on ice), then doesn't that make hockey analytics far less reliable than other sports analytics?

Yes which is why I usually trust eye test over analytics assuming the person giving their opinion actually watches majority of the play.

It's nice sometimes just to check if the analytics align with what you see though.