Leafs Off HNIC/CBC for first time since 1972 and ACC attendance

[Mess]

You are 100000% missing the point.

The SSH base will never, ever change for this team and provides the revenue floor for MLSE. This has been acknowledged a million times already in this topic. In-arena revenue is still a thing but I agree that no matter what there's butts in the seats 99.9% of the time and they spend money no matter who it is.

However, there is a significant amount of additional revenue (from ticket sales, other in-arena revenues and TV ratings for Bell/Rogers) that comes with making the playoffs that MLSE will be willfully foregoing if they go into an 3-4 year in-depth rebuilding phase. Right now MLSE can talk all they want about foregoing it because they're into the new TV deal, the Leafs have made the playoffs recently etc.

Leafs have missed the playoffs 9 of the last 10 years (90% of the time) and only a lockout shortened 1 playoff round to show for the past 10 years. Leafs are forgoing playoff revenue regardless if its planned or not. So what is MLSE really risking here when their current plan has proven to be a complete failure, if the immediate goal each season was playoff gate receipt revenue?

Trying something different to get different results seems to be the more logical approach to repairing this mess then more of the same.

The sales pitch by Shanahan is that we need to build this the right way through the draft and from the ground up in hopes of realizing the Detroit model of perpetual playoff games 24+ years and counting as the long-term goal here. According to Shanny that requires willfully to take steps back in the present in order to move forward consistently in the future.

Short-term guaranteed pain (missed playoffs) for long-term gain for the MLSE and Leaf Nation by a successful product on the ice and consistent playoff seasons which address both the sports side and the business model at the same time. Everyone is happy when the Leafs win and everybody loses when they don't. Who is winning right now under the current plan?

 

[Northern Dancer]

Leafs have missed the playoffs 9 of the last 10 years (90% of the time) and only a lockout shortened 1 playoff round to show for the past 10 years. Leafs are forgoing playoff revenue regardless if its planned or not. So what is MLSE really risking here when their current plan has proven to be a complete failure, if the immediate goal each season was playoff gate receipt revenue?

Trying something different to get different results seems to be the more logical approach to repairing this mess then more of the same.

The sales pitch by Shanahan is that we need to build this the right way through the draft and from the ground up in hopes of realizing the Detroit model of perpetual playoff games 24+ years and counting as the long-term goal here.

Short-term guaranteed pain (missed playoffs) for long-term gain for the MLSE and Leaf Nation by a successful product on the ice and consistent playoff seasons which address both the sports side and the business model at the same time. Everyone is happy when the Leafs win and everybody loses when they don't. Who is winning right now under the current plan?

The Detroit model, I thought you were a "play the kids" guy ??????

 

[Babcocks Marner]

You are 100000% missing the point.

The SSH base will never, ever change for this team and provides the revenue floor for MLSE. This has been acknowledged a million times already in this topic. In-arena revenue is still a thing but I agree that no matter what there's butts in the seats 99.9% of the time and they spend money no matter who it is.

However, there is a significant amount of additional revenue (from ticket sales, other in-arena revenues and TV ratings for Bell/Rogers) that comes with making the playoffs that MLSE will be willfully foregoing if they go into an 3-4 year in-depth rebuilding phase. Right now MLSE can talk all they want about foregoing it because they're into the new TV deal, the Leafs have made the playoffs recently etc.

But as MLS continues to add extra DP spots, and as the NBA cap continues to increase and the Raptors will need to spend an extra $35M per year to hit the cap and be competitive in 2016, the Leafs become even more of the backbone of MLSE's (and as a result, Rogers/Bell) income generator. Will the owners continue to be willing to lose out on $10-20M of first round playoff gate + the resultant TV rating increases for a full-fledged rebuild, especially if there's no golden boy (read: McDavid) to lead it?

I agree with one of the posters above that if there's five terrible years followed by ten great ones you make the investment back and more, but its a lot easier to say that as a fan from the outside who really has nowhere to go and no one to answer too during the rebuild compared to someone reporting to the shareholders and could be out of a job if they don't meet revenue/EBITDA targets.

Yea, except they been to the playoffs once in 10 years. That's the problem.

The entire Leaf franchise is worth just over a billion, MLSE 2.25 billion, and your talking about companies that make billions in PROFIT, every year.
It's not a major aspect of revenue for either of these companies.

What magic wand saves this team within 2 years? McDavid, or Stamkos maybe? That's it.

It's re-build time, and by year 3 the Leafs will have Strome/Marner-Nylander-Brown etc, and hopefully they start to become good, with a great 2016 pick as well. Fingers crossed.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

It is still very early days.

That's about all you have left to hang onto, time.

I'm sorry, but you probably won't get to see your handsome captain Phaneuf glide around the ice like a pylon next year

 

[BrannigansLaw]

The Detroit model, I thought you were a "play the kids" guy ??????

What exactly do you propose they do if not rebuild? I would love to hear your original ideas.

 

[ACC1224]

Yea, except they been to the playoffs once in 10 years. That's the problem.

The entire Leaf franchise is worth just over a billion, MLSE 2.25 billion, and your talking about companies that make billions in PROFIT, every year.
It's not a major aspect of revenue for either of these companies.

What magic wand saves this team within 2 years? McDavid, or Stamkos maybe? That's it.

It's re-build time, and by year 3 the Leafs will have Strome/Marner-Nylander-Brown etc, and hopefully they start to become good, with a great 2016 pick as well. Fingers crossed.

The question is will MLSE stick to this rebuild if in a few years attendance continues to trend down?

 

[Northern Dancer]

What exactly do you propose they do if not rebuild? I would love to hear your original ideas.

I did not know that was the topic at hand. See ACC's post above. There must be another thread where I can pontificate on rebuilding, retooling, on-the fly-re-tooling or whatever the flavour of the month is.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

I did not know that was the topic at hand. There must be another thread where I can pontificate.

So you have no idea.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Durrr]

Looks good on them!

If Phaneuf is still the Captain next season, I am going to sell every game from my seasons. **** this garbage!



Enough is enough.

Yeah! That'll show Dion! How dare he stay after management built a ****** team around him and they failed!

 

[Mike1]

So people are blaming this on Shanahan saying the team is rebuilding & not on the terrible track record of the organization or the fact these are throw away games by a group of athletes that look like they couldn't care less. It just ridiculous...

Shanahan is doing the right thing, in fact he is doing what should have been done almost ten years ago. Ownership doesn't have a choice because there are no quick fixes in this CBA. Free agency has been largely lessened, there are little to no impact players that can change a franchise. If you want to get there you have to draft your own way to the top.

 

[Mess]

You still haven't answered why you expect people will go watch a Nylander led rebuilding Team.

If season ticket holders renew and buy up the majority of the tickets then how are non season ticket holders going to get into the building if its sold out?.

If you don't want to see Nylander instead of Kessel then why are you buying tickets to prevent those that want to?

If you sell your season tickets that you don't want to go see yourself than the person you sold them to is the answer to your own question of who wants to see Nylander and the rebuilding Leafs team play. Every game you do attend yourself in person then the answer is yourself otherwise why are you going?

If you're position is correct and fans don't want to see a losing and rebuilding product then your going to be eating a lot of tickets you bought and paid for but can't sell or will need to sell at a loss just to get rid of. Your price of admission for the games you do go to see increases with ever lost ticket you can't sell to break even with.

Perhaps you might not realize that it will be you that loses money from the game not MLSE as MLSE doesn't care what you do with them afterwards because they already have your guaranteed money in their bank account regardless if they dress Nylander or Kessel. Its you that is taking all the risk and betting on fans wanting to see Nylander play and supporting a losing on ice product during a rebuild.

MLSE endorsing a draft rebuild plan comes at your potential loss but their own gain and long-term benefit as long as you keep renewing your season tickets. Hope you enjoying cheering on Willie next year when you go to the games as that appears to be the plan by Shanny of the on ice entertainment product they're selling you with your season tickets.

 

[Northern Dancer]

So you have no idea.

Thanks for your time.

Anytime.

Why do you want to take this off-topic?

 

[Northern Dancer]

If season ticket holders renew and buy up the majority of the tickets then how are non season ticket holders going to get into the building if its sold out?.

If you don't want to see Nylander instead of Kessel then why are you buying tickets to prevent those that want to?

If you sell your season tickets that you don't want to go see yourself than the person you sold them to is the answer to your own question of who wants to see Nylander and the rebuilding Leafs team play.

If you're position is correct and fans don't want to see a losing and rebuilding product then your going to be eating a lot of tickets you bought and paid for but can't sell or will need to sell at a loss just to get rid of. Your price of admission for the games you do go to see increases with ever lost ticket you can't sell to break even with.

Perhaps you might not realize that it will be you that loses money from the game not MLSE as MLSE doesn't care what you do with them afterwards because they already have your guaranteed money in their bank account regardless if they dress Nylander or Kessel. Its you that is taking all the risk and betting on fans wanting to see Nylander play and supporting an losing on ice product during a rebuild.

Mess, MLSE has a system for subscribers to re-sell tickets at cost through them. You can also try to sell them on Stub-Hub. If tankers want to go and watch the rebuilt the proper way Leafs next year they will have no excuses. Tickets will be available.

What ACC and I are simply trying to say is that there is little support for a scorched earth policy from those that count and that is subscribers. Tankers will not go and watch the Marlies disguised as NHL'ers.

They all talk the talk but they do not walk the walk.

 

[Deebo]

Mess, MLSE has a system for subscribers to re-sell tickets at cost through them. You can also try to sell them on Stub-Hub. If tankers want to go and watch the rebuilt the proper way Leafs next year they will have no excuses. Tickets will be available.

What ACC and I are simply trying to say is that there is little support for a scorched earth policy from those that count and that is subscribers. Tankers will not go and watch the Marlies disguised as NHL'ers.

They all talk the talk but they do not walk the walk.

I am assuming you are season seat subscriber. If they trade Kessel and Phaneuf for quality futures in the off-season and have another terrible season next year, will you choose not to renew?

ACC, how about you?

 

[Northern Dancer]

I am assuming you are season seat subscriber. If they trade Kessel and Phaneuf for quality futures in the off-season and have another terrible season next year, will you choose not to renew?

ACC, how about you?

I am a subscriber and have been since 1974. I will never give my seats up. Not in a thousand years.

If quality futures are draft picks or prospects that need a couple of years in the AHL then I would be deeply disappointed with next year. As I said in a previous post PM for tickets next year I have 41 games for sale. (whoops make that 43, I forgot the mandatory exhibition games I had to buy)

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

This thread makes it really apparent who works for corporations.

You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think just because Bell and Rogers have billions of dollars in revenue that losing ratings, advertising, page views will not affect their bottom line and that they won't take that seriously.

What do you think happens when business area's don't meet projections? it affects share prices and drives down that companies value.

MLSE not getting playoff revenues isn't good for business, MLSE losing regular season revenue's is just as bad if not worse though.

 

[HellasLEAF]

Best, thread, ever.

Finally our fanbase has some damn backbone.

Looks like the haters can stop using that against us.

I really hope Florida isn't a sellout either.

 

[UnknownNasty]

It wont this year.

Leaf viewers have been down by a huge margain this year. Heck, even one saturday night the leafs had less viewers than the curling matchup on TSN - which was a first in HNIC history.

The leafs sadly are a dying generation in Canada, and most of our children will grow up to be fans of other Canadian/American teams.

I predict within 5 years the leafs wont be "Canada's team anymore". It seems as if the 'long-time loyal leaf fans' have simply had enough.

The 'long-time loyal Leaf fans' will come back after the rebuild. If they don't, they weren't loyal fans at all...

 

[Suntouchable13]

I am a subscriber and have been since 1974. I will never give my seats up. Not in a thousand years.

If quality futures are draft picks or prospects that need a couple of years in the AHL then I would be deeply disappointed with next year. As I said in a previous post PM for tickets next year I have 41 games for sale. (whoops make that 43, I forgot the mandatory exhibition games I had to buy)

So you'd rather keep guys like Kessel and Phaneuf and be under the illusion that this team can make the playoffs next season and be competitive? How many years in a row can we be fooled into thinking that "This season will be different"? The jig is up.

 

[egd27]

So you have no idea.

Thanks for your time.

Or he just wants to stay on the topic.......the implications of apathy and revenue loss on the "rebuild" not whether or not a rebuild is a good idea

 

[Northern Dancer]

So you'd rather keep guys like Kessel and Phaneuf and be under the illusion that this team can make the playoffs next season and be competitive? How many years in a row can we be fooled into thinking that "This season will be different"? The jig is up.

I would trade, Bozak, Lupal and Phaneuf, would keep Kessel. I have absolutely no illusions about making the play-offs next year.

 

[Eagle Eye Cherry]

Why should we surprised? The team stinks. It was expected.

 

[Deebo]

I am a subscriber and have been since 1974. I will never give my seats up. Not in a thousand years.

If quality futures are draft picks or prospects that need a couple of years in the AHL then I would be deeply disappointed with next year. As I said in a previous post PM for tickets next year I have 41 games for sale. (whoops make that 43, I forgot the mandatory exhibition games I had to buy)

I don't think MLSE cares what you do with your tickets after you have paid in full. You said in a previous post there is little support among STH for "scorched earth" policy. But if most of them are like you and would never give up their seats in a thousand years, then why would MLSE care what they will support or not support? You are still giving them your money.

ACC made the point in a previous post that in the event an STH chooses not to attend and can't find someone to use their ticket, MLSE would suffer in concession sales. If they spend $15M below the cap, while the concession revenue is lower for a few seasons, they can still grow their profit year over year.

If the rebuild is executed correctly, it might be 5+ years before they are cup contenders. If the rebuild is on track for that though, they'll be competitive and entertaining in 2-3 years and any attendance issues will be resolved so the concession revenue will be back as the payroll increases again. Playoff revenue will they start to come in and everything will be fine.

I think it is very easy to sell a plan like this to the board. Especially when the bulk of their revenue is from guaranteed sources like the national TV deal, corporate sponsorship and season ticket holders who wouldn't give up their tickets in a thousand years. If planned properly, they can still grow profits during a few leaner attendance years as long as the season ticket base is still there, which it will be.

I think rebuilding is not only a smart hockey decision but the proper business decision as well. Bell has the incentive of 3.5M+ viewers on their properties every year for all Leaf playoff games and the further they go, the higher the viewership goes. I read that game 7 in 2013 had over 5M viewers in Canada. Playoff success would drive regular season viewership too.

Plenty of large corporations make investments for future profits if the plan is sound. Hopefully they have right management in place execute the plan.

 

[egd27]

So you'd rather keep guys like Kessel and Phaneuf and be under the illusion that this team can make the playoffs next season and be competitive? How many years in a row can we be fooled into thinking that "This season will be different"? The jig is up.

Again, not the question.

Question is will there be apathy and revenue loss during a rebuild and will the owners be able to stay the rebuild course?

 

[Swervin81]

Again, not the question.

Question is will there be apathy and revenue loss during a rebuild and will the owners be able to stay the rebuild course?

They will... seriously, there's a difference between this team and a rebuilding team. This team, there is no hope, no effort, no heart. A rebuilding team, there is hope, and they should be showing effort and some heart out there. At the end of the day, hope sells (look at the Oilers attendance), and being able to watch the young kids blossoming, even with the team doing ****** in terms of winning, will easily sell. Not to mention that the this team would be nowhere near as despised as it currently is if the players bothered to actually give a **** out there.