Leafs Off HNIC/CBC for first time since 1972 and ACC attendance

[Northern Dancer]

McDavid would bring me out for a few games next year.

I can't believe MLSE will be ok with seeing the building empty for any considerable length of time.

Tell the tankers who have always said Toronto will support a "proper re-build."

PS: I guess our scouting comments were not apprreciated.

 

[stealth1]

I think all the losing has finally caught up to them. The Leafs are going to lose a generation of fans with all the losing if they truly rebuild. Kids have more access to other teams, and sports now so following your home town team doesn't have to be the only option now.

 

[Mess]

You said that people will show up to watch Nylander, etc which is what I initially replied to.

You realize that no shows cost the Team money even though the tickets are paid for? I know I can easily pay more in beer and food than what the tickets cost.

So are you claiming you did buy the season tickets but don't intend to go watch the games in person if they intend on icing Nylander instead of Kessel?

That is even worse for you and what message are you trying to send MLSE by your actions? You're their best customer as you plan on buying seats and not attending the games. You figure you're teaching MLSE a lesson through lost hotdog concessions sales by your absence?

Here is MLSE solution to your lost revenue point on beer and parking.. Leafs currently spend to the Salary Cap ceiling on players salaries.. If they draft rebuild and play a bunch of kids on cheap entry level contracts (ie. pay Nylander $925k instead of Kessel at $8 mil) that allows them to play at the Salary Cap floor which is -$16 mil less than the ceiling. That $16 million does directly into MLSE profit margin as they aren't spending it on player salaries. That money goes a long way to cover lost hotdog sales and foam fingers and empty spots in the parking lot when you don't show up to sit in the seats you paid for.

So MLSE profit line reads tickets at same full prices + $16 mil additional savings spending to the cap floor (instead of ceiling) = increased profit margins. Whereas same ticket prices + spending to the Cap ceiling on players = less profit. By draft rebuilding they are making more money for the regular season by simply spending less money on the product at the same prices as before.

 

[Stats01]

I think all the losing has finally caught up to them. The Leafs are going to lose a generation of fans with all the losing if they truly rebuild. Kids have more access to other teams, and sports now so following your home town team doesn't have to be the only option now.

...so...you're saying they shouldn't properly re-build because they're going to lose a generation of fans? The Leafs will be fine, there's enough of a foundation with this franchise that you won't see that much of a dramatic decrease.

 

[Northern Dancer]

So are you claiming you did buy the season tickets but don't intend to go watch the games in person if they intend on icing Nylander instead of Kessel?

That is even worse for you and what message are you trying to send MLSE by your actions? You're their best customer as you plan on buying seats and not attending the games. You figure you're teaching MLSE a lesson through lost hotdog concessions sales by your absence?

Here is MLSE solution to your lost revenue point on beer and parking.. Leafs currently spend to the Salary Cap ceiling on players salaries.. If they draft rebuild and play a bunch of kids on cheap entry level contracts (ie. pay Nylander $925k instead of Kessel at $8 mil) that allows them to play at the Salary Cap floor which is -$16 mil less than the ceiling. That $16 million does directly into MLSE profit margin as they aren't spending it on player salaries. That money goes a long way to cover lost hotdog sales and foam fingers and empty spots in the parking lot when you don't show up to sit in the seats you paid for.

So MLSE profit line reads tickets at same full prices + $16 mil additional savings spending to the cap floor (instead of ceiling) = increased profit margins. Whereas same ticket prices + spending to the Cap ceiling on players = less profit. By draft rebuilding they are making more money for the regular season by simply spending less money on the product at the same prices as before.

If the Leafs committed to a full long-term draft rebuild and it resulted in bottom 10 finishes for the next 5 seasons, and early draft picks would you still renew your season tickets each season regardless of the on ice results?

If your answer is yes, of course like it was in the earlier post then you should have no fear MLSE will scrap the draft rebuild in a panic move as long as people are willing to pay for seats at the ACC. They charge the highest ticket prices in the NHL and as long as season ticket holders continue to support them financially they can do no wrong.

Your being silly Mess, the Leafs will never be a cap floor team. They will not stack next year's teams with rookies, they will be with the Marlies. Are you not a huge Detroit model fan ???? Next years team will be filled out with more Santarelli's Winniks, MacArthur's etc. It will be a dreadful team.

 

[ACC1224]

So are you claiming you did buy the season tickets but don't intend to go watch the games in person if they intend on icing Nylander instead of Kessel?

That is even worse for you and what message are you trying to send MLSE by your actions? You're their best customer as you plan on buying seats and not attending the games. You figure you're teaching MLSE a lesson through lost hotdog concessions sales by your absence?

Here is MLSE solution to your lost revenue point on beer and parking.. Leafs currently spend to the Salary Cap ceiling on players salaries.. If they draft rebuild and play a bunch of kids on cheap entry level contracts (ie. pay Nylander $925k instead of Kessel at $8 mil) that allows them to play at the Salary Cap floor which is -$16 mil less than the ceiling. That $16 million does directly into MLSE profit margin as they aren't spending it on player salaries. That money goes a long way to cover lost hotdog sales and foam fingers and empty spots in the parking lot when you don't show up to sit in the seats you paid for.

So MLSE profit line reads tickets at same full prices + $16 mil additional savings spending to the cap floor (instead of ceiling) = increased profit margins. Whereas same ticket prices + spending to the Cap ceiling on players = less profit. By draft rebuilding they are making more money for the regular season by simply spending less money on the product at the same prices as before.

I'm not trying to send any message to MLSE and I'll bet they are closer to the ceiling than the cap floor.

You still haven't answered why you expect people will go watch a Nylander led rebuilding Team.

 

[theaub]

So are you claiming you did buy the season tickets but don't intend to go watch the games in person if they intend on icing Nylander instead of Kessel?

That is even worse for you and what message are you trying to send MLSE by your actions? You're their best customer as you plan on buying seats and not attending the games. You figure you're teaching MLSE a lesson through lost hotdog concessions sales by your absence?

Here is MLSE solution to your lost revenue point on beer and parking.. Leafs currently spend to the Salary Cap ceiling on players salaries.. If they draft rebuild and play a bunch of kids on cheap entry level contracts (ie. pay Nylander $925k instead of Kessel at $8 mil) that allows them to play at the Salary Cap floor which is -$16 mil less than the ceiling. That $16 million does directly into MLSE profit margin as they aren't spending it on player salaries. That money goes a long way to cover lost hotdog sales and foam fingers and empty spots in the parking lot when you don't show up to sit in the seats you paid for.

If the Leafs committed to a full long-term draft rebuild and it resulted in bottom 10 finishes for the next 5 seasons, and early draft picks would you still renew your season tickets each season regardless of the on ice results?

If your answer is yes, of course like it was in the earlier post then you should have no fear MLSE will scrap the draft rebuild in a panic move as long as people are willing to pay for seats at the ACC. They charge the highest ticket prices in the NHL and as long as season ticket holders continue to support them financially they can do no wrong.

Probably best to preface this by saying I don't speak for all SSH

Renewing season tickets doesn't mean you support the product now. It means, bluntly, that SSH face is low enough that you know you can sell enough tickets no matter how bad the Leafs are to break even, and then when the Leafs become decent again you can go back to the old system of selling 20-ish games to break even and then go to whatever's left for free.

I don't think anyone's going through the noble crusade of buying seasons and then going to zero games to cost them in-arena revenue. Its just the fact that there's less incentive for people to show up/go through the effort to sell people tickets for $30 that results in no-shows and the resultant loss in that revenue. That's pretty much what is happening right now.

I do agree with your other points though. The one thing I'll say - TFC loses a ton of money right now. and the Raptors don't make a lot of money. MLSE needs the Leafs to make money to succeed. As much as a 'doing it right' rebuild can be supported by the SSH to keep a steady revenue floor, at some point the Board looks at the playoff revenues they got two years ago and realizes its...a lot of money. There's a big difference between projecting to get that revenue and not getting it when the team disappoints (and the Board just blames the management) compared to projecting 3-4 years without playoff revenue. That's where a full arena for 41 games is extremely important even if the team sucks.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Okay this logic of fans aren't watching because they hate the players is stupid.

I love Kessel (he amuses me he's an enigma) , like Phaneuf, Lupul, Bozak's alright but I'm not going to watch a team whose competing for nothing, we've known we have no chance of the playoffs since when February?

It doesn't matter what the roster is, no ones want to go watch a team that's tanking. I think trading the players we did was needed but come on stop this delusion of blaming Kessel and Phaneuf for everything.

I guarantee if we were in ninth place, that arena's sold out, those rating are up regardless of whose still on the roster.

 

[Mess]

Here is MLSE Execs own words for those fearing MLSE will pull the plug on a draft rebuild because of declining TV ratings.

“He has a plan,” Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment chief commercial officer Dave Hopkinson said in a phone interview Tuesday. “It’s clear that Shanahan's getting ready to reveal his plan and that (the moves) we’re doing right now is the setup to give him the flexibility.”

On the business side, Shanahan was “intimately involved” with the decision to keep ticket prices the same, according to Hopkinson, who said ownership was “extremely supportive” of the decision. Hopkinson said it follows other fan-friendly initiatives that have gone into place in the past year.

“There’s a bunch of things we’re doing to really demonstrate to our fans in deeds not just words that we do not take their loyalty for granted, that we appreciate their support,” Hopkinson said. Given the organization’s recent mediocrity, this fan base seems prepared for a full-scale rebuild. Hopkinson said fans he has talked to are excited about that possibility and predicts that “they’re going to be able to be very enthusiastic about our trajectory very soon.”

Hopkinson said the season-ticket renewal rate has been over 99 per cent in each of the past two years.

“I think that our most loyal supporters, they’re believing in Shanny, they’re believing in where we’re going, and they’re excited to see that we have got a very, very clear direction here,” Hopkinson said. “We’re fortunate that we have the support from that group that allows us, from a business perspective, the patience to do what Shanny needs to do here in order to build a team that’s going to consistently compete for a championship.”

Speaking about the organization’s plan, Hopkinson said Shanahan is “resolved” to stay the course to produce winning hockey the right way. “He will not be swayed by media pressure or fan pressure or Twitter or anything else,” Hopkinson said. “He’s going to do what he needs to do in order to make this team a consistent winner.”

Full Story: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ebuild-will-require-patience/article23276459/

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Here is MLSE Execs own words for those fearing MLSE will pull the plug on a draft rebuild because of declining TV ratings.

Which would be great if we weren't owned by two media companies who need interest in the Leafs to help their other area's of business. We will see how much pressure they will have in making sure the Leafs are relevant and competing.

Declining ratings don't seem to support that the fans are quite so ready either.

 

[ACC1224]

Here is MLSE Execs own words for those fearing MLSE will pull the plug on a draft rebuild because of declining TV ratings.

It is still very early days.

 

[Stats01]

Which would be great if we weren't owned by two media companies who need interest in the Leafs to help their other area's of business. We will see how much pressure they will have in making sure the Leafs are relevant and competing.

Declining ratings don't seem to support that the fans are quite so ready either.

So just because fans aren't willing to fork over 300+ bucks a night it shows they're not ready?? Come on man..if you put up the ticket prices we have to pay on another re-building franchise, they'd be lucky to draw flies. I think the fan base deserves a bit more credit than you're giving out. I believe this fan base has been ready for a true re-build for years but MLSE have put pressure on to win now. It's never been about how ready the fan base is. The fan base is one of the main reasons why this franchise is so rich even though we haven't done squat in ages. The fan base have been through thick and thin and to mention that they're not ready based on one night where they miss out on a sell-out by a few hundred and tv ratings are down a bit is just silly. If you're forking out big dollars to watch this crap..that's you're perrogative, but to say the fan base isn't ready for a re-build because they don't want to fork over a pay-cheque to watch this team lose...kind of ignorant.

 

[Mess]

Probably best to preface this by saying I don't speak for all SSH

Renewing season tickets doesn't mean you support the product now. It means, bluntly, that SSH face is low enough that you know you can sell enough tickets no matter how bad the Leafs are to break even, and then when the Leafs become decent again you can go back to the old system of selling 20-ish games to break even and then go to whatever's left for free.

I don't think anyone's going through the noble crusade of buying seasons and then going to zero games to cost them in-arena revenue. Its just the fact that there's less incentive for people to show up/go through the effort to sell people tickets for $30 that results in no-shows and the resultant loss in that revenue. That's pretty much what is happening right now.

I do agree with your other points though. The one thing I'll say - TFC loses a ton of money right now. and the Raptors don't make a lot of money. MLSE needs the Leafs to make money to succeed. As much as a 'doing it right' rebuild can be supported by the SSH to keep a steady revenue floor, at some point the Board looks at the playoff revenues they got two years ago and realizes its...a lot of money. There's a big difference between projecting to get that revenue and not getting it when the team disappoints (and the Board just blames the management) compared to projecting 3-4 years without playoff revenue. That's where a full arena for 41 games is extremely important even if the team sucks.

Bottom Line: MLSE doesn't care what you do with your season tickets once you bought and paid for them. They don't get additional revenue if you give them away or sell them for profit for loss or if you or grandma or someone else sits in them when the puck drops.

All MLSE cares about is the original financial commitment that effect their profit margins. MLSE plans are based on initial ticket sales not the secondary market.

Renewing season tickets = investing in MLSE and if you support or don't support their team building plan is irrelevant after that point as far as they're concerned.

MLSE also knows that for every season ticket holder willing to make a bold statement they don't support the direction the team is going (full draft rebuild) by not renewing season tickets and staying away, that there is a line-up around the block begging them to get your season tickets instead.

 

[A Bearded Platypus]

Which would be great if we weren't owned by two media companies who need interest in the Leafs to help their other area's of business. We will see how much pressure they will have in making sure the Leafs are relevant and competing.

Declining ratings don't seem to support that the fans are quite so ready either.

I don't get this. There will obviously be fans who would rather not spend their time watching the Leafs losing on a consistent basis. I'm ready for however long it takes to rebuild this team and put together a cup contender but I'm sure there are people who currently not making it a priority to tune in to every Leaf game like they would if the team is in playoff contention. Declining ratings should be expected and I don't think that's a sign that they aren't ready for a rebuild.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

Which would be great if we weren't owned by two media companies who need interest in the Leafs to help their other area's of business. We will see how much pressure they will have in making sure the Leafs are relevant and competing.

Declining ratings don't seem to support that the fans are quite so ready either.

Regardless of who plays next year, They are still a top 3 money making NHL team.

What is the other option?
Continue on from the last decade? Nobody wants that.

IF, and it is a BIG IF, Shanny can build anything near a cup contending team in 5 years, the money MLSE, on the 6th year will make up the losses of the previous 5 combined.

I think next year will be the worst, and after that we will start getting better and better until we compete again. Bubble team in 2/3 years with great potential.

 

[ACC1224]

Bottom Line: MLSE doesn't care what you do with your season tickets once you bought and paid for them. They don't get additional revenue if you give them away or sell them for profit for loss or if you or grandma or someone else sits in them when the puck drops.

All MLSE cares about is the original financial commitment that effect their profit margins. MLSE plans are based on initial ticket sales not the secondary market.

Renewing season tickets = investing in MLSE and if you support or don't support their team building plan is irrelevant after that point as far as they're concerned.

MLSE also knows that for every season ticket holder willing to make a bold statement they don't support the direction the team is going (full draft rebuild) by not renewing season tickets and staying away, that there is a line-up around the block begging them to get your season tickets instead.

They do get additional revenue if the seat is used.

 

[Moncherry]

Bypassing a proper rebuild for a band-aid fix has resulted in years of failure anyway so the idea that going down this route will cause the fans to tune out is ridiculous considering they've been mired in the same mess for the past 10 years. The way the past few seasons have ended have had a far more toxic impact than having a season like a Buffalo or an Edmonton. So they are going to suck for a bit longer, that's no different than what's going on now. What can change is that this scorched-earth approach might get them out of the cellar faster than diddling about signing average free-agents to overpaid contracts and signing NCAA players and being at best a middle-of-the-pack, "maybe we will make the playoffs this year?" team.

 

[theaub]

Bottom Line: MLSE doesn't care what you do with your season tickets once you bought and paid for them. They don't get additional revenue if you give them away or sell them for profit for loss or if you or grandma or someone else sits in them when the puck drops.

All MLSE cares about is the original financial commitment that effect their profit margins. MLSE plans are based on initial ticket sales not the secondary market.

Renewing season tickets = investing in MLSE and if you support or don't support their team building plan is irrelevant after that point as far as they're concerned.

MLSE also knows that for every season ticket holder willing to make a bold statement they don't support the direction the team is going (full draft rebuild) by not renewing season tickets and staying away, that there is a line-up around the block begging them to get your season tickets instead.

You are 100000% missing the point.

The SSH base will never, ever change for this team and provides the revenue floor for MLSE. This has been acknowledged a million times already in this topic. In-arena revenue is still a thing but I agree that no matter what there's butts in the seats 99.9% of the time and they spend money no matter who it is.

However, there is a significant amount of additional revenue (from ticket sales, other in-arena revenues and TV ratings for Bell/Rogers) that comes with making the playoffs that MLSE will be willfully foregoing if they go into an 3-4 year in-depth rebuilding phase. Right now MLSE can talk all they want about foregoing it because they're into the new TV deal, the Leafs have made the playoffs recently etc.

But as MLS continues to add extra DP spots, and as the NBA cap continues to increase and the Raptors will need to spend an extra $35M per year to hit the cap and be competitive in 2016, the Leafs become even more of the backbone of MLSE's (and as a result, Rogers/Bell) income generator. Will the owners continue to be willing to lose out on $10-20M of first round playoff gate + the resultant TV rating increases for a full-fledged rebuild, especially if there's no golden boy (read: McDavid) to lead it?

I agree with one of the posters above that if there's five terrible years followed by ten great ones you make the investment back and more, but its a lot easier to say that as a fan from the outside who really has nowhere to go and no one to answer too during the rebuild compared to someone reporting to the shareholders and could be out of a job if they don't meet revenue/EBITDA targets.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Okay this logic of fans aren't watching because they hate the players is stupid.

I love Kessel (he amuses me he's an enigma) , like Phaneuf, Lupul, Bozak's alright but I'm not going to watch a team whose competing for nothing, we've known we have no chance of the playoffs since when February?

It doesn't matter what the roster is, no ones want to go watch a team that's tanking. I think trading the players we did was needed but come on stop this delusion of blaming Kessel and Phaneuf for everything.

I guarantee if we were in ninth place, that arena's sold out, those rating are up regardless of whose still on the roster.

that is the silliest thing i've ever heard.

if someone offered me a ticket to see THIS team now (ie - i had to purchase it), I wouldn't go - simply put because I don't want to watch (8 times out of 10), a team that is freaking playing shinny. the end. if they aren't going to have effort, then I am not going to bother.

if this was the exact same team, that played last night the past 2 months, then i would 100 percent, for sure go see them. and I'd go see them if they were 30th, 25th, 9th, or presidents trophy chasing.

i want to see legitimate effort along with my skill, and I'd imagine that's what a lot of people want to go see.

 

[Mess]

They do get additional revenue if the seat is used.

~95% (best guess) of the time there is someone in the building using that ticket to get admission as Leafs have been declaring sellouts for decades.

Also MLSE has no control if you show up or not and if the seat that was bought is used.. They only focus on unsold tickets.

Even if you sit in the seat, it doesn't mean MLSE can force you to buy a beer or a jersey or any other revenue stream outside of ticket sales. So those are not guaranteed sales or revenue streams that MLSE is counting on or concerned over with an empty seat.

The ticket sale is the mountain and the concession revenue the mole hill in comparison here to driving Corporate team building direction and decisions. This is all about price points for ticket sales and margins for MLSE and what they can extract from the public and realize as profit.

Nobody in the MLSE boardroom is worrying about hotdog revenue and sales declining determining if they plan on icing Kessel or Nylander as the entertainment product for the price of admission.

 

[MSZ]

The upcoming Leafs/Sens game on Saturday will go back to CBC, according to SN's website, but of course they may change their mind later on.

 

[Northern Dancer]

~95% (best guess) of the time there is someone in the building using that ticket to get admission as Leafs have been declaring sellouts for decades.

Also MLSE has no control if you show up or not and if the seat that was bought is used.. They only focus on unsold tickets.

Even if you sit in the seat, it doesn't mean MLSE can force you to buy a beer or a jersey or any other revenue stream outside of ticket sales. So those are not guaranteed sales or revenue streams that MLSE is counting on or concerned over with an empty seat.

The ticket sale is the mountain and the concession revenue the mole hill in comparison here to driving Corporate team building direction and decisions. This is all about price points for ticket sales and margins for MLSE and what they can extract from the public and realize as profit.

Nobody in the MLSE boardroom is worrying about hotdog revenue and sales declining determining if they plan on icing Kessel or Nylander as the entertainment product for the price of admission.

And I am sure that MLSE is well aware of the Toronto Blue Jays (same owner as MLSE) when they did a scorched earth rebuild after 2 World Series and three 4mm bums in the seats seasons. Hasn't recovered in 22 years. (last years attendance 2.3 million)

 

[ACC1224]

~95% (best guess) of the time there is someone in the building using that ticket to get admission as Leafs have been declaring sellouts for decades.

Also MLSE has no control if you show up or not and if the seat that was bought is used.. They only focus on unsold tickets.

Even if you sit in the seat, it doesn't mean MLSE can force you to buy a beer or a jersey or any other revenue stream outside of ticket sales. So those are not guaranteed sales or revenue streams that MLSE is counting on or concerned over with an empty seat.

The ticket sale is the mountain and the concession revenue the mole hill in comparison here to driving Corporate team building direction and decisions. This is all about price points for ticket sales and margins for MLSE and what they can extract from the public and realize as profit.

Nobody in the MLSE boardroom is worrying about hotdog revenue and sales declining determining if they plan on icing Kessel or Nylander as the entertainment product for the price of admission.

You don't actually believe any of this or your very naive.

 

[Northern Dancer]

You don't actually believe any of this or your very naive.

Nope he has no idea, the Air Canada Club, The Platinum Lounge, the Hot Stove Lounge serves close to 1,000 full priced dinners per game. That does not include Real Sports where another 1500 are carrying on. Neither does it include private suites (140 of them) that serve food and beverage. And he has obviously never sat in a seat and ordered a coke and hot-dog (bare minimum order) that will cost close to $20.00

 

[BrannigansLaw]

I'm not trying to send any message to MLSE and I'll bet they are closer to the ceiling than the cap floor.

You still haven't answered why you expect people will go watch a Nylander led rebuilding Team.

Same reason people go out and see guys like Kessel and Phaneuf lay an egg night after night.

They're Leafs fans.