Leafs need to get more physical and not just fighting

[IPS]

Look at Game 1 last year against Tampa when Clifford got a 5:00 major, a game misconduct, and a 1 game suspension for his boarding penalty.

That kind of elaborates on my point earlier.

Is it a bad hit? Very bad, yes. Does it happen dozens of times every playoffs WITHOUT suspension? 100% yes. You can apply this to both of Kadri's suspensions too. Why the f*** is it that the Leafs singled out every time and suspended? That same boarding play - Boston must have done that to us 20 times in both of our series with them but do they ever get a peep about it? f*** no. But somehow the refs will call some bullshit 3rd man in penalty on Jake Gardiner trying to bear hug Chara.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Agreed. Get him out of there and it's easy days for the refs. Only have to deal with 1 (or 2) idiots on the Leafs to give yourself an easy night.

However, some teams have a team full of guys that play tough/dirty/cheat/rough, however you want to word it.

Those are the teams us Leafs fans complain about never getting called.

On Tampa Bay I would say Nikita Kucherov, Corey Perry, and Mikhail Sergachev are those types of players.

On Boston the obvious answer is Brad Marchand.

That kind of elaborates on my point earlier.

Is it a bad hit? Very bad, yes. Does it happen dozens of times every playoffs WITHOUT suspension? 100% yes. You can apply this to both of Kadri's suspensions too. Why the f*** is it that the Leafs singled out every time and suspended? That same boarding play - Boston must have done that to us 20 times in both of our series with them but do they ever get a peep about it? f*** no. But somehow the refs will call some bullshit 3rd man in penalty on Jake Gardiner trying to bear hug Chara.

Remember when Jake DeBrusk got away with this in Game 2 during the 2019 series, which is what lead up to Kadri and what got him suspended.

 

[Stephen]

Look at Game 1 last year against Tampa when Clifford got a 5:00 major, a game misconduct, and a 1 game suspension for his boarding penalty.

You also have to remember Clifford wasn't a regular Leaf player and Keefe highlighted the idea of playing a dirty/physical game vs Tampa. True team wide physical play doesn't have these window dressing guys running around, but extra little shots given/taken by everyone buying into a certain level of physical play. If William Nylander gave a defenseman a little extra shot to the ribs behind the play, that doesn't usually get called.

 

[Nineteen67]

Tampa is a mean, ruthless, pack of wolves, and prior to their little run, St Louis and Boston had a great series.

It takes a physical commitment to get to the final. Hopefully that never changes. There are players that wish to stick check in the dying minutes of games 7, which is fine, but we want to watch them in the World Championship and not the Stanley Cup.

Seriously has anyone been watching the playoffs or just spouting the same old crap from years ago?

 

[Stephen]

That kind of elaborates on my point earlier.

Is it a bad hit? Very bad, yes. Does it happen dozens of times every playoffs WITHOUT suspension? 100% yes. You can apply this to both of Kadri's suspensions too. Why the f*** is it that the Leafs singled out every time and suspended? That same boarding play - Boston must have done that to us 20 times in both of our series with them but do they ever get a peep about it? f*** no. But somehow the refs will call some bullshit 3rd man in penalty on Jake Gardiner trying to bear hug Chara.

I think the issue is Clifford's hit was a complete outlier from what you'd see in terms of finishing hits from the Leafs. So that one hit is going to attract the eye of the ref as opposed to if you had multiple lines flying around throwing hits, face washing, stirring it up between the whistles. It's got to be a part of the team game and not the add on for special occasions.

 

[francis246]

While the officiating in the NHL is awful, I think it's absolutely wrong to worry about getting calls against when building a roster with toughness, and thus avoiding it because the Leafs have a couple of designated window dressing guys but not a cohesive physical plan.

Team toughness works best when every single player commits to a level of physical buy in. Finish every check on the forecheck. Give an extra shot when no one's looking. Give an extra little in the scrum but know when to back off. Guys are harassing your stars? Stick 'em under the padding. When everyone is committing borderline stuff at high volume, you're not going to be called for 50 penalties a game. Profit off the delta. Kill off the other stuff.

You just can't have a designated face puncher (Simmonds) and a designated yapper (Bunting), or one angry guy like Kadri cruising around and everyone else playing clean and expect to be able to hide that. They stick out like a sore thumb. Everyone's got to be a prick to play against. Anyone who gets within 2 feet of you has got to be made to feel uncomfortable.

I'm not describing anything unique except how other teams play against Toronto.

Exactly, couldn't agree more. For whatever reason that's how it feels like Toronto is playing every night. Don't do anything to get calls, but we should have complete buy in from everyone to play tough every night. Deal with the calls as they come. We've seen key players on the leafs show glimpses, which leads me to assume (Don't Know For A Fact), that a message is coming from management and/or coaches to not engage in extracurriculars

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I think Dubas grew up a Senators fan, no? I'm surprised he hasn't considered that guys like Roberts laying the body on Wade Redden puck retrievals is what helped put mileage on the Sens blueline over a long series and soften them up for a Game 7. A hit is an "investment". Every time a Hedman or Sergachev gets run on a puck retrieval, there's a slightly more beat up opponent later in the series. Why the Leafs choose not to weaponize that aspect of the game is beyond me.

I don't think it's Dubas' idea as much as it is Shanny's idea to ice this kind of team. Shanny is almost embarrassed about the way he played and thinks the wings teams he was on were super skilled and won that way and not from toughness. He doesn't remember that they didn't start winning cups until his style of play showed up...

 

[LeafsNation75]

You also have to remember Clifford wasn't a regular Leaf player and Keefe highlighted the idea of playing a dirty/physical game vs Tampa. True team wide physical play doesn't have these window dressing guys running around, but extra little shots given/taken by everyone buying into a certain level of physical play. If William Nylander gave a defenseman a little extra shot to the ribs behind the play, that doesn't usually get called.

Honestly after last year we will never know what a penalty is anymore, especially in the playoffs.

In Game 5 when Tampa tied it 3-3 in the 3rd period, skip ahead to the 7:25 mark of the highlights and you will see Ross Colton with clear interference on Morgan Rielly and no penalty was called.



In Game 7 we saw Justin Holl do the exact same thing and he got 2:00 for interference and it waved off John Tavares goal.

 

[barilko05]

I've pointed this out before but I think it bears repeating to those who say we should start punching guys in the face and doing dirty stuff after whistles like Boston. Here's why that won't work: Boston (and to a lesser extent Tampa, and a few other selected AMERICAN teams) get away with it because the refs look the other way (for whatever reason. I have my theory. Others have theirs). If we start playing that same style, its going to be a steady stream of players to the box. I know this sounds like the standard "the league has it in for us, Team X gets preferential treatment," ad infinitum. But the evidence consistently bears it out. Keller cross checks a guy...its a fine. Matthews does same thing...two games. And the list goes on and on. Our guys get hacked, slashed, cross checked, DRAW BLOOD FFS...and the NHL does NOTHING. We retalitate? Spezza...6 games. Kadri...multiple games over multiple seasons. Kerfoot...2 games...AM...2 games. Engvall...ENGVALL for the love of god...who's bucking for the Inge Hammerstrom "goes into the corner with a dozen eggs in his pocket and comes out with none broken" award....gets a game. Not to mention the 100 thousand the team got fined for leaving an hour and half early over the holidays to beat a snowstorm. The bottom line is...we can't stoop to others team's levels. Not because we're not big enough, or physical enough...but because if we start to play over the edge, we're gonna play the whole game a man (or more) down. It's just the way it is. For whatever reason, the NHL and Gary are harder on our players, more vigilant of what they do on the ice, and absolutely dish out way harsher punishments than they do to the rest of the league. That's not a conspiracy theory. The stats are there and bear it out 100 per cent. All this team can do is play through the crap, and do what it does best. Score goals, pray for solid goaltending and hope that's enough to offset the rest of it.

 

[francis246]

Engval was at 9.61 hit/60 last playoff 4th in leafs foward group( with at lesdt 3 game)

He would be 4th too with colorado or tampa

Vs mtl at 8.32

So sorry i dont think engval physicality come playoff time was a problem...

the quantity of hits isn't the issue, it's the force of the hits I personally want to see increase. A rub out along the boards sometimes counts as a hit.

On the forecheck I want to see our forwards running the opposing dmen through the boards, the same way our opposition runs Sandin through the boards on a nightly basis. That's how you create turn overs.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Engval was at 9.61 hit/60 last playoff 4th in leafs foward group( with at lesdt 3 game)

He would be 4th too with colorado or tampa

Vs mtl at 8.32

So sorry i dont think engval physicality come playoff time was a problem...

I wouldn't exactly be crediting Engval with hits...more like gentle bumps...if that. There is the problem. Hits are like shots...they might be called a shot...but one from AM is much different than Kerfoot. So, as far as I am concerned...we don't hit...we gently rub them out. If a smaller Sandin is hitting guys...what's Reilly's excuse?

 

[francis246]

I've pointed this out before but I think it bears repeating to those who say we should start punching guys in the face and doing dirty stuff after whistles like Boston. Here's why that won't work: Boston (and to a lesser extent Tampa, and a few other selected AMERICAN teams) get away with it because the refs look the other way (for whatever reason. I have my theory. Others have theirs). If we start playing that same style, its going to be a steady stream of players to the box. I know this sounds like the standard "the league has it in for us, Team X gets preferential treatment," ad infinitum. But the evidence consistently bears it out. Keller cross checks a guy...its a fine. Matthews does same thing...two games. And the list goes on and on. Our guys get hacked, slashed, cross checked, DRAW BLOOD FFS...and the NHL does NOTHING. We retalitate? Spezza...6 games. Kadri...multiple games over multiple seasons. Kerfoot...2 games...AM...2 games. Engvall...ENGVALL for the love of god...who's bucking for the Inge Hammerstrom "goes into the corner with a dozen eggs in his pocket and comes out with none broken" award....gets a game. Not to mention the 100 thousand the team got fined for leaving an hour and half early over the holidays to beat a snowstorm. The bottom line is...we can't stoop to others team's levels. Not because we're not big enough, or physical enough...but because if we start to play over the edge, we're gonna play the whole game a man (or more) down. It's just the way it is. For whatever reason, the NHL and Gary are harder on our players, more vigilant of what they do on the ice, and absolutely dish out way harsher punishments than they do to the rest of the league. That's not a conspiracy theory. The stats are there and bear it out 100 per cent. All this team can do is play through the crap, and do what it does best. Score goals, pray for solid goaltending and hope that's enough to offset the rest of it.

I hear your point, but my counter to that is, you need to start making it your identity, then you have a right to call out the refs or go to the NHL directly and provide the footage at the GM/Board of Governors Meetings.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Keller cross checks a guy...its a fine. Matthews does same thing...two games.

Before those plays happened, remember in the 2019-20 Season when Chara cross checked Brendan Gallaher the exact same way, however he only got a $5,000 fine like Keller did.

So how was that any different compared to what Matthews did?

 

[Larcos_Unal]

I'm not worried about Leafs getting tougher anymore. They've made their minds up as far as how they're going to play, nothing we can do about it here.
Lets wait till April to see if they've learned anything from their previous failures. Based on what I'm seeing in the regular season, I'm not convinced.

Before those plays happened, remember in the 2019-20 Season when Chara cross checked Brendan Gallaher the exact same way, however he only got a $5,000 fine like Keller did.

So how was that any different compared to what Matthews did?

Last time we faced Boston I remember a clip of Chara punching JT right in the face while they were tied up against the boards. Surprise! No call...Bruins get away with murder more than any team in the NHL.

 

[Stephen]

I've pointed this out before but I think it bears repeating to those who say we should start punching guys in the face and doing dirty stuff after whistles like Boston. Here's why that won't work: Boston (and to a lesser extent Tampa, and a few other selected AMERICAN teams) get away with it because the refs look the other way (for whatever reason. I have my theory. Others have theirs). If we start playing that same style, its going to be a steady stream of players to the box. I know this sounds like the standard "the league has it in for us, Team X gets preferential treatment," ad infinitum. But the evidence consistently bears it out. Keller cross checks a guy...its a fine. Matthews does same thing...two games. And the list goes on and on. Our guys get hacked, slashed, cross checked, DRAW BLOOD FFS...and the NHL does NOTHING. We retalitate? Spezza...6 games. Kadri...multiple games over multiple seasons. Kerfoot...2 games...AM...2 games. Engvall...ENGVALL for the love of god...who's bucking for the Inge Hammerstrom "goes into the corner with a dozen eggs in his pocket and comes out with none broken" award....gets a game. Not to mention the 100 thousand the team got fined for leaving an hour and half early over the holidays to beat a snowstorm. The bottom line is...we can't stoop to others team's levels. Not because we're not big enough, or physical enough...but because if we start to play over the edge, we're gonna play the whole game a man (or more) down. It's just the way it is. For whatever reason, the NHL and Gary are harder on our players, more vigilant of what they do on the ice, and absolutely dish out way harsher punishments than they do to the rest of the league. That's not a conspiracy theory. The stats are there and bear it out 100 per cent. All this team can do is play through the crap, and do what it does best. Score goals, pray for solid goaltending and hope that's enough to offset the rest of it.

I think the problem is the Leafs coaching and management staff might be lacking in an understanding of "The Dark Arts" and have a lot of mid roster guys who don't contribute those things.

Teams like Boston and Tampa take their fair share of penalties. They get called more than Toronto. But as heavier teams they have a good sense of when to dish out a little extra roughing here and there. They're also killing penalties at a superior rate to Toronto.

So if you're going to commit one infraction every minute, and get called for let's say 6 a game, you're getting away with 90% of the BS out there, maybe surrendering less than a goal against. At the end of the day, team toughness is a tool, and the value proposition of being a high volume offender is more appealing than being choir boys with one designated chaperone.

NHL Team Penalty Minutes 2022-2023 | StatMuse

The Montreal Canadiens spent 955 minutes in the box in 2022-23.

www.statmuse.com

 

[LeafsNation75]

Last time we faced Boston I remember a clip of Chara punching JT right in the face while they were tied up against the boards. Surprise! No call...Bruins get away with murder more than any team in the NHL.

That's correct. It happened at the end of the 2nd period in Game 7, with the Leafs losing 2-1. Who knows what would have happened if they had a full 2:00 power play to start the 3rd down by one goal?

 

[Antropovsky]

We got Lyb last year and he was absolutely awful. Trust your younger players. The best teams who play their best hockey in right moments are who win regardless if they play physically or not. Colorado isn't a physical team. They play fast with talent throughout their lineup when healthy.
What the Leafs need is an addition or two up front. If they are physical great, but thats not the primary objective.
Leafs outhit a great team in Boston yesterday and lost.


Incorrect.

Mack and Landeskog ... They are battlers. Physical doesn't mean your Wilson out there. I think the big concern with the Leafs is the Nylander, Matthews, Marner literally skate away when their teammates are in scrums. I think Matthews is physical enough and especially with his injury history (he came out very physical this season but guessing he got injured early).But having such a huge chunk of our core being I'm interested in standing up for their teammates is concerning.

 

[Mess]

This team needs a Wendel Clark again,

Once upon a time there was a tavern
Where we used to raise a glass or two
Remember how we laughed away the hours
And think of all the great things we would do

Those were the days my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we choose
We'd fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way.

 

[barilko05]

Before those plays happened, remember in the 2019-20 Season when Chara cross checked Brendan Gallaher the exact same way, however he only got a $5,000 fine like Keller did.

So how was that any different compared to what Matthews did?

It wasn't. Chara was the dirtiest player in the league for very long time. If he played for any other team but Boston he'd have the seat in the penalty box named after him in every arena because of how much time he spent in there. Its like the refs were afraid if they gave him a penalty, he'd somehow react and chase them all over the ice until he caught them and pounded them into little black and white grease spots. Its truly disgusting what that guy got away with year after year. I don't miss us playing his big Ogre ass one bit.

 

[Enniskillen]

Panicking Marner and listless JT who is afraid of another head injury is what makes Leafs lose every year. Why would Engvall hit if JT and Marner always skate away like p.ssies? Team just follows the captain and the core. Until culture changes no wins will come. It will be same shit show in April.

 

[Mess]

Things are bad enough we have to face the Big Bad Bruins and the TB Lightning.

Just think of a day in the not to distant future for Florida and Ottawa will be in the playoffs and Leafs have to face a Tkachuk.

 

[OVO16]

For the people who think Physicality is a non-issue...why is Tampa bay Targeting Luke Schenn when they are already one of the tougher/grittier teams in the league?

 

[Peace Frog]

Until the core of this team is built with star players that have grit and a compete level that makes them do whatever it takes to win, we’re always going to be an excellent regular season team.

Playoffs will always be a sore spot with a core like this, imo. I will forever be a Leafs fan and I can only hope I’m still kicking when the Leafs figure out the eternal formula for seriously competing for the holy grail of hockey.

Team toughness and a “whatever it takes” attitude, is what separates the champions from the wannabes. Not a single team in the history of the NHL has ever won a Cup without that level of commitment and intensity!!

 

[LeafsNation75]

Mack and Landeskog ... They are battlers. Physical doesn't mean your Wilson out there. I think the big concern with the Leafs is the Nylander, Matthews, Marner literally skate away when their teammates are in scrums. I think Matthews is physical enough and especially with his injury history (he came out very physical this season but guessing he got injured early).But having such a huge chunk of our core being I'm interested in standing up for their teammates is concerning.

In Matthews rookie season he was on the ice when there was a line brawl between the Leafs and Canucks.

 

[Bomber0104]

I've pointed this out before but I think it bears repeating to those who say we should start punching guys in the face and doing dirty stuff after whistles like Boston. Here's why that won't work: Boston (and to a lesser extent Tampa, and a few other selected AMERICAN teams) get away with it because the refs look the other way (for whatever reason. I have my theory. Others have theirs). If we start playing that same style, its going to be a steady stream of players to the box. I know this sounds like the standard "the league has it in for us, Team X gets preferential treatment," ad infinitum. But the evidence consistently bears it out. Keller cross checks a guy...its a fine. Matthews does same thing...two games. And the list goes on and on. Our guys get hacked, slashed, cross checked, DRAW BLOOD FFS...and the NHL does NOTHING. We retalitate? Spezza...6 games. Kadri...multiple games over multiple seasons. Kerfoot...2 games...AM...2 games. Engvall...ENGVALL for the love of god...who's bucking for the Inge Hammerstrom "goes into the corner with a dozen eggs in his pocket and comes out with none broken" award....gets a game. Not to mention the 100 thousand the team got fined for leaving an hour and half early over the holidays to beat a snowstorm. The bottom line is...we can't stoop to others team's levels. Not because we're not big enough, or physical enough...but because if we start to play over the edge, we're gonna play the whole game a man (or more) down. It's just the way it is. For whatever reason, the NHL and Gary are harder on our players, more vigilant of what they do on the ice, and absolutely dish out way harsher punishments than they do to the rest of the league. That's not a conspiracy theory. The stats are there and bear it out 100 per cent. All this team can do is play through the crap, and do what it does best. Score goals, pray for solid goaltending and hope that's enough to offset the rest of it.

The reason those teams "get away with it", as you see it, is because they constantly play that way.

The refs come to expect that to be the game with grittier stlyle teams and they make the calls based on the relative temperature they play at.

When Toronto does anything in the way of showing push-back, character, and aggresiveness, it really stands out for the refs because the other 98% of the time, they play a pretty unabrasive, wimpy style.

If Matthews constantly played on the edge, mixed it up, took the odd roughing call once in a while, doesn't laugh when he's being bullied by players, etc., all of a sudden that cross-check to the neck against big bad Rasmus Dahlin last year probably doesn't get a suspension. He probably also would have just fought him and not done that in the first place either but regardless..

Much like with their fellow players and watchers of the sport, the Leafs need to earn the respect from the refs that are calling the game as well.