Leafs need to get more physical and not just fighting

[OVO16]

Leafs defense mainly is soft. The playoffs are gonna be a different animal in terms of forechecking and opposition players trying to wear down our defenders with body checks.

 

[Antropovsky]

This guy gets it.
Some of you others, not so much.

I have to say... It's impressive how you just give us hints as to what the future holds and don't reveal all the answers. Such incredible restraint. We are so fortunate to have you and your guidance on this board. Otherwise we would have such wasteful topics... But luckily you have definitive answers and enter threads to explain to us that this is not the answer and guide us in the right direction. Maybe we can just allow you to create all the threads? That way only worthwhile conversations would be had. Most importantly less of your mighties precious time would be wasted.

i have to ask... Is it a crystal ball or a time machine that enables you to know all the answers?

Mods! Close it down, ACC1224 has spoken!

 

[Chief Leaf]

For some of those who think the team is good enough now and not to worry...Have you ever watched another team make some BIG HITS that becomes a momentum changer?

I didn't think so.

Look man, Hockey is a battle for the puck, plain and simple and if you are not battling in the hard areas of the ice,...the opponents feel stronger and usually come out with the puck because they battled for it.

If you ain't scoring, well some banging is in order to gain momentum swings.

They can't all be pretty, sometimes ugly is good.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Ah yes more false narratives that Leafs haven't won a round because they aren't physical enough. Do we really need a thread every week about something that isn't true?

Kiss off it’s that exact thinking that forms losers.

 

[francis246]

I'm torn with it.

On one side you can easily see the Leafs are an easily intimidated team. Whenever their opponent ramps up the physicality, the Leafs cower. I can never forget JT's first game back on the Island. The Isles made it abundantly clear from the start they were bringing a playoff like intensity but the whole team just resigned to losing from the first couple minutes in. Games like that have been a recurring trend with this core.

On the other side: there seems to be this ridiculous bias that the league and refs take against the Leafs whenever they do decide to step up and respond physically. Kadri took 2 suspensions against Boston in the playoffs when he didn't even make the dirtiest plays of those respective games, Matthews gets some bullshit suspension for retaliating with a crosscheck when he was clearly getting hacked to start, and the series against Tampa last year resulted in Clifford taking an immediate match penalty and suspension (along with Simmonds) and they weren't even brought back the rest of the series because Keefe probably knew the refs were going to have a hair trigger with calling anything against them as the series went on.

I honestly might just be some biased homer regarding the 2nd point - but I constantly look at the shit that other teams get away with and can't believe it. I really wonder if Dubas is aware of this and takes into consideration that the Leafs are under a different set of rules then other teams.

This is why I think under Dubas and Maybe Keefe we will never get that physicality. Clearly Parros has a bias towards the leafs, whether he’ll admit it or not. But he holds the Orr situation against them. It’s been proven multiple times. There’s no consistency between DPOS decisions. It’s all arbitrary.

Clearly the message from Management has been to not engage because it is going to hurt us (suspensions, our guys getting the extra penalty) rather than help us. Unfortunately though I think this is the wrong message. IMO the messaging should be, f***/screw the NHL we are gonna be physical and engage in scrums and if we get punished so be it, but more teams will think twice about messing with us. That should have been the response, not disengaging. Unfortunate, but I don’t think the mindset changes with the team unless it changes up top with management.

 

[francis246]

Leafs defense mainly is soft. The playoffs are gonna be a different animal in terms of forechecking and opposition players trying to wear down our defenders with body checks.

It’s not only that but our leafs forwards do absolutely nothing on the forecheck the other way. It’s fly bys, stick in the skates to poke the puck. Matthews has the ability to be a wrecking ball, we saw it last playoffs, he needs to bring that every time.

Pierre Engvall would be the first guy I punt to the moon. That guy just doesn’t get it, if I watch him in disgust on the forecheck I know Keefe must be loosing his mind on a nightly basis.

 

[authentic]

Ah yes more false narratives that Leafs haven't won a round because they aren't physical enough. Do we really need a thread every week about something that isn't true?

Seriously has anyone been watching the playoffs or just spouting the same old crap from years ago?

 

[Peace Frog]

I agree with IPS about the conundrum the Leafs seem to be stuck in when it comes to physicality. I’ve noticed that when a team plays physically against us and we try to play “disciplined”, by not responding to all the after the whistle crap, the refs don’t seem to want to reward us with handing out penalties to the other team.

If we respond and “push back”, then the refs get involved and either hand out penalties to both teams, or just to the retaliating team… which happens to be the Leafs.

A perfect example of this is any of the Leafs/Bruins series. It’s incredible how many things the Bruins got away with and yet we tried to stay disciplined, thinking that the Bruins would eventually start getting penalized.

That never happened, and when we tried to fight back, we started seeing our players going to the box, or getting suspended. If I’m a Leafs player, I have no idea how to play against a team like the Bruins in the playoffs.

Imo, I think we’d be best served by playing physical and feisty and not bother worrying about how the refs are going to deal with it. One way or the other, the penalties are going to be evened up, so we might as well go on the offensive. Just my two pennies.

 

[authentic]

Go get a physical big D come playoff time with no Muzzin its going to become a big issue when ref's put whistles away. Secondly top 6 and bottom 6 additions of size and ability to play. Hopefully Knies fills one of those spots

Dude the refs literally did the opposite of put the whistles away last playoffs, when the Leafs were tougher than we've ever seen them. Except for games 6 and 7 when they put them away for Tampa only and made up calls in their favour.

I agree with IPS about the conundrum the Leafs seem to be stuck in when it comes to physicality. I’ve noticed that when a team plays physically against us and we try to play “disciplined”, by not responding to all the after the whistle crap, the refs don’t seem to want to reward us with handing out penalties to the other team.

If we respond and “push back”, then the refs get involved and either hand out penalties to both teams, or just to the retaliating team… which happens to be the Leafs.

A perfect example of this is any of the Leafs/Bruins series. It’s incredible how many things the Bruins got away with and yet we tried to stay disciplined, thinking that the Bruins would eventually start getting penalized.

That never happened, and when we tried to fight back, we started seeing our players going to the box, or getting suspended. If I’m a Leafs player, I have no idea how to play against a team like the Bruins in the playoffs.

Imo, I think we’d be best served by playing physical and feisty and not bother worrying about how the refs are going to deal with it. One way or the other, the penalties are going to be evened up, so we might as well go on the offensive. Just my two pennies.

I totally wouldn't worry about playing it safe. We did our best early in the series against Tampa when the games were more rough. Tampa got their phantom calls when it counted and ultimately that was the difference, not any lack of toughess whatsoever from our team.

 

[Peace Frog]

I would love to see Keefe and even better, Shanahan, do an interview just before the playoffs start in which they call out the biases that have been evident throughout the last few seasons with respect to officiating.

Sure, they might get in some hot water and get fined, but who cares? If they just called out the refs and made it clear that we’re not going to take any more of this BS, it might just force the League to make sure things are called more fairly.










Lmfao…. Anyone who just read all of this and thinks that it just might work…. Keep dreaming! Hahahaha

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

IMHO the issue is lack of physicality, and being soft -> YES

But I don't think getting any physical players is going to solve any issues.

Why?

When I look around the league especially the teams that have had success:
Their core guys actually play physical (or dirty sometimes); they are not boy scouts always looking at the refs. They can dish as much as they can take.

examples:
Tampa: Point, Kucherov, Stamkos, Hedman, Sargechev etc.
Avs: mack, Rantanen, Makar, Landy, etc.
Bruins: Bergeron (not dirty but finishes checks and takes hit to make plays); Marchand, Pasta, MacAvoy, Lindholm, etc.
Canes: Aho, Svechnikov, Pesce, Slavin, etc...
etc...

you get the point.

For the Leafs I only see Matthews mixing it a bit; everyone else plays like boyscouts (marner, nylnader, tavares). Its gotta come from within the core; core has gotta get more physical; getting someone else is not gonna help IMO

Also, opposition has way to easy of a time when they stand in front of Leafs goalies; when leafs do that they get punished/boxed out. In the playoffs thats also gonna make the difference

Good points. I would also add that it seems that whenever we get a player that is supposed to be a high energy guy and a hitter...he seems to stop doing it very shortly after joining (or never in the case of Aube-Kubel) the team. Why is that? Why do players we acquire for their particular skills we don't have in abundance seem to just blend in with everyone else? I would assume it as you just stated...the main guys aren't playing mean or desperate...that trickles down to everyone...

So if you are a high energy player who played on physical teams and you come here...for some reason you see the others not giving a shit about the physical game and just go with the flow....it happens all the time.

 

[thusk]

Leafs finished 6th last playoff in hit/60.. from top 5

3 team lost in 1st round
1 win his 1st round series against an other top 5 team in term of hit and be swept next round...

Be more physical doesn't mean higher succes

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I'm torn with it.

On one side you can easily see the Leafs are an easily intimidated team. Whenever their opponent ramps up the physicality, the Leafs cower. I can never forget JT's first game back on the Island. The Isles made it abundantly clear from the start they were bringing a playoff like intensity but the whole team just resigned to losing from the first couple minutes in. Games like that have been a recurring trend with this core.

On the other side: there seems to be this ridiculous bias that the league and refs take against the Leafs whenever they do decide to step up and respond physically. Kadri took 2 suspensions against Boston in the playoffs when he didn't even make the dirtiest plays of those respective games, Matthews gets some bullshit suspension for retaliating with a crosscheck when he was clearly getting hacked to start, and the series against Tampa last year resulted in Clifford taking an immediate match penalty and suspension (along with Simmonds) and they weren't even brought back the rest of the series because Keefe probably knew the refs were going to have a hair trigger with calling anything against them as the series went on.

I honestly might just be some biased homer regarding the 2nd point - but I constantly look at the shit that other teams get away with and can't believe it. I really wonder if Dubas is aware of this and takes into consideration that the Leafs are under a different set of rules then other teams.

The Seattle Seahawks won that Super bowl by pushing the envelope regarding pass interference. They literally did it so often that they dared the officials to call every one and reduce the game to a slog...it worked...they got called for some...but most of the time they got away with it because the coach knew the refs would be made a focal point and would shy away from that.

The same thing happens with Boston...they do so MANY things they know they can't be called on all of them and they know the refs will pretty much match up the PP's to being close enough to even that they don't mind the extra PK or 2. This is what the Leafs don't seem to understand. For so many years Babs had us playing like boy-scouts hoping that we would get so many extra PP's opportunities and we never really did.

There are stats on the worst offending teams and the best and there is not as big a difference as you would imagine in PP's. So, that's a big factor for a team like Boston or TB with a killer PP. They are ok with taking penalties AND getting PP's because they KNOW they can score on the PP to make a difference. We still have our head in the sand regarding this stuff IMO.

 

[BallardEra]

Good points. I would also add that it seems that whenever we get a player that is supposed to be a high energy guy and a hitter...he seems to stop doing it very shortly after joining (or never in the case of Aube-Kubel) the team. Why is that? Why do players we acquire for their particular skills we don't have in abundance seem to just blend in with everyone else? I would assume it as you just stated...the main guys aren't playing mean or desperate...that trickles down to everyone...

So if you are a high energy player who played on physical teams and you come here...for some reason you see the others not giving a shit about the physical game and just go with the flow....it happens all the time.

I think it’s most likely a system thing and players coming in don’t see a system focused on physicality. That doesn’t mean they won’t throw hits but they are probably more focused to play within the system than go hunting for hits.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

It’s not only that but our leafs forwards do absolutely nothing on the forecheck the other way. It’s fly bys, stick in the skates to poke the puck. Matthews has the ability to be a wrecking ball, we saw it last playoffs, he needs to bring that every time.

Pierre Engvall would be the first guy I punt to the moon. That guy just doesn’t get it, if I watch him in disgust on the forecheck I know Keefe must be loosing his mind on a nightly basis.

He literally avoids contact as much as Kessel did....think about that. The guy is 6-5 and 220 and he stick checks guys or does flybys. What I don't get is the "We would like Pierre to be more physical and remind him of it" ....WTF is that? Remind him? Why not tell him he better have at least 2 hits per game or he sits? This comes from the top somewhere and I am betting it's Shanny and not Dubas.

I think it’s most likely a system thing and players coming in don’t see a system focused on physicality. That doesn’t mean they won’t throw hits but they are probably more focused to play within the system than go hunting for hits.

That may be true...but we should look at changing the system if that is the case. If we bow out early this year for the 7th time...I think this system will be proven to be a regular season system.

 

[Stephen]

This is why I think under Dubas and Maybe Keefe we will never get that physicality. Clearly Parros has a bias towards the leafs, whether he’ll admit it or not. But he holds the Orr situation against them. It’s been proven multiple times. There’s no consistency between DPOS decisions. It’s all arbitrary.

Clearly the message from Management has been to not engage because it is going to hurt us (suspensions, our guys getting the extra penalty) rather than help us. Unfortunately though I think this is the wrong message. IMO the messaging should be, f***/screw the NHL we are gonna be physical and engage in scrums and if we get punished so be it, but more teams will think twice about messing with us. That should have been the response, not disengaging. Unfortunate, but I don’t think the mindset changes with the team unless it changes up top with management.

While the officiating in the NHL is awful, I think it's absolutely wrong to worry about getting calls against when building a roster with toughness, and thus avoiding it because the Leafs have a couple of designated window dressing guys but not a cohesive physical plan.

Team toughness works best when every single player commits to a level of physical buy in. Finish every check on the forecheck. Give an extra shot when no one's looking. Give an extra little in the scrum but know when to back off. Guys are harassing your stars? Stick 'em under the padding. When everyone is committing borderline stuff at high volume, you're not going to be called for 50 penalties a game. Profit off the delta. Kill off the other stuff.

You just can't have a designated face puncher (Simmonds) and a designated yapper (Bunting), or one angry guy like Kadri cruising around and everyone else playing clean and expect to be able to hide that. They stick out like a sore thumb. Everyone's got to be a prick to play against. Anyone who gets within 2 feet of you has got to be made to feel uncomfortable.

I'm not describing anything unique except how other teams play against Toronto.

 

[rocketman588]

We outhit them by 15 yesterday so i

We got Lyb last year and he was absolutely awful. Trust your younger players. The best teams who play their best hockey in right moments are who win regardless if they play physically or not. Colorado isn't a physical team. They play fast with talent throughout their lineup when healthy.
What the Leafs need is an addition or two up front. If they are physical great, but thats not the primary objective.
Leafs outhit a great team in Boston yesterday and lost.


Incorrect.

We outhit them so I don't think that was the issue yesterday

However lybushkin was way better then people give him credit and he was actually able to be a useable partner for Rielly ( which is a thing we need)

This allowed us to play the Brodie Muzzin shutdown pair

We don't have anyone that can manage Morgan at he moment ( it'll get better after the slump)basically at this point and we don't have the ability to have a shutdown pair.

We also have a few guys that need to be sheltered which Boosh didn't need

 

[TakeTheBody]

How many times this season have the Leafs outhit the other team in a game? I'm guessing they've out hit the other team 25%-33% of the time. There's quite a few things wrong with that. You take abuse all season long. The wear and tear of the season has to affect you. But most obviously it's better to initiate than retaliate. When a player like Engvall who is softer than Charmin is on your third line. I don't see that line outplaying the other team in the playoffs. Everyone here loves hockey. You have to realize the game will always change post season. It's more physical. Especially on the third and fourth lines. Dubas needs two wingers who can keep up and hit. Put them with Kampf on the third line. Use whoever you like on the fourth line ( hopefully not Simmonds). Tampa really improved when their third line really improved. Wash. Rinse. Repeat Dubas.

 

[Stephen]

How many times this season have the Leafs outhit the other team in a game? I'm guessing they've out hit the other team 25%-33% of the time. There's quite a few things wrong with that. You take abuse all season long. The wear and tear of the season has to affect you. But most obviously it's better to initiate than retaliate. When a player like Engvall who is softer than Charmin is on your third line. I don't see that line outplaying the other team in the playoffs. Everyone here loves hockey. You have to realize the game will always change post season. It's more physical. Especially on the third and fourth lines. Dubas needs two wingers who can keep up and hit. Put them with Kampf on the third line. Use whoever you like on the fourth line ( hopefully not Simmonds). Tampa really improved when their third line really improved. Wash. Rinse. Repeat Dubas.

I think Dubas grew up a Senators fan, no? I'm surprised he hasn't considered that guys like Roberts laying the body on Wade Redden puck retrievals is what helped put mileage on the Sens blueline over a long series and soften them up for a Game 7. A hit is an "investment". Every time a Hedman or Sergachev gets run on a puck retrieval, there's a slightly more beat up opponent later in the series. Why the Leafs choose not to weaponize that aspect of the game is beyond me.

 

[fancy lad]

How many times this season have the Leafs outhit the other team in a game? I'm guessing they've out hit the other team 25%-33% of the time..

That is a very generous guess. My guess is they have only outhit the other team in 5-10% of the games.

I have looked up this stat the odd time when I check game stats and it’s downright scary how badly the leafs get outhit. many games the opposition gas Twice the hits the leafs have or close to it. They get DOMINATED in that stat category.

I get that being a physically Imposing team is not in their DNA, but surely some of the players on this team need to turn up the intensity and play with a bit more grit. I’m going to throw out tavares into that category. He shys away from contact a heck of a lot. As the captain its not a great look.

 

[All Mod Cons]

I'm torn with it.

On one side you can easily see the Leafs are an easily intimidated team. Whenever their opponent ramps up the physicality, the Leafs cower. I can never forget JT's first game back on the Island. The Isles made it abundantly clear from the start they were bringing a playoff like intensity but the whole team just resigned to losing from the first couple minutes in. Games like that have been a recurring trend with this core.

On the other side: there seems to be this ridiculous bias that the league and refs take against the Leafs whenever they do decide to step up and respond physically. Kadri took 2 suspensions against Boston in the playoffs when he didn't even make the dirtiest plays of those respective games, Matthews gets some bullshit suspension for retaliating with a crosscheck when he was clearly getting hacked to start, and the series against Tampa last year resulted in Clifford taking an immediate match penalty and suspension (along with Simmonds) and they weren't even brought back the rest of the series because Keefe probably knew the refs were going to have a hair trigger with calling anything against them as the series went on.

I honestly might just be some biased homer regarding the 2nd point - but I constantly look at the shit that other teams get away with and can't believe it. I really wonder if Dubas is aware of this and takes into consideration that the Leafs are under a different set of rules then other teams.

That's the thing though. When your whole team buys into it and play rough/tough/dirty, and the guys who can't at least facewash/slash/cross check, the refs are not going to call everyone and everything. It's your identity. Refs respect that.

In 2013, when we played Boston with Orr, McLaren, Fraser, Komarov, Kadri, Phaneuf and O'Byrne, I believe we had more PP opportunities than Boston in the series. If not, it was very close.

Nowadays, we plug in Simmonds or Clifford and it's pointless. The refs know if they can get rid of either/both of them, the Leafs will play a passive game and there won't be any headaches for the refs.

Either the whole team man's up, or we should just forget about it.

No point in it only being 1 or 2 guys.

 

[LeafsNation75]

That's the thing though. When your whole team buys into it and play rough/tough/dirty, and the guys who can't at least facewash/slash/cross check, the refs are not going to call everyone and everything. It's your identity. Refs respect that.

In 2013, when we played Boston with Orr, McLaren, Fraser, Komarov, Kadri, Phaneuf and O'Byrne, I believe we had more PP opportunities than Boston in the series. If not, it was very close.

Nowadays, we plug in Simmonds or Clifford and it's pointless. The refs know if they can get rid of either/both of them, the Leafs will play a passive game and there won't be any headaches for the refs.

Either the whole team man's up, or we should just forget about it.

No point in it only being 1 or 2 guys.

Look at Game 1 last year against Tampa when Clifford got a 5:00 major, a game misconduct, and a 1 game suspension for his boarding penalty.

 

[noo]

teams get away with it because it's part of their game.. hack and slash and crosscheck all day and if u barely cross the line a couple times it'll go unnoticed, everyone knows refs won't call 40 penalties a game so might as well abuse (especially playoffs). this is what i see as "physical", battling hard, and murder the teams in your way mentality.. personally i love it and wish Toronto had more of it

leafs get called because it's always a player who snaps and tries to kill someone lol it's always retaliatory not just part of how they play normally

also hit totals don't mean shit, it's all about quality hits.. even in games where leafs outhit the other team you can't remember a single one most of the time. big powerful hits is what matters. when a Dman goes to get the puck and gets destroyed to make the play, you don't think he's on edge next time around? it's why marner is always panicking and throwing away in playoffs because he's afraid. he knows if he holds on for 1 more second he's getting laid out

Toronto doesn't have anything like that, and imo they're coached this way. Skate away after the whistle, don't even look at the opponent; never finish hits when you dump and chase, just fly by and try to poke the puck out; don't even shove guys away from your goalie when they're stabbing at him. even when things get heated you can see other teams talk shit and laugh in their face and still no push back. kind of embarrassing tbh

i think every player on this team has it in them if they're given the OK.. nylander would be hacking at people shins all day a la Kessel lmao

maybe this strategy will work one day, but it's not very fun to watch when it's not..

 

[All Mod Cons]

Look at Game 1 last year against Tampa when Clifford got a 5:00 major, a game misconduct, and a 1 game suspension for his boarding penalty.

Agreed. Get him out of there and it's easy days for the refs. Only have to deal with 1 (or 2) idiots on the Leafs to give yourself an easy night.

However, some teams have a team full of guys that play tough/dirty/cheat/rough, however you want to word it.

Those are the teams us Leafs fans complain about never getting called.

 

[thusk]

How many times this season have the Leafs outhit the other team in a game? I'm guessing they've out hit the other team 25%-33% of the time. There's quite a few things wrong with that. You take abuse all season long. The wear and tear of the season has to affect you. But most obviously it's better to initiate than retaliate. When a player like Engvall who is softer than Charmin is on your third line. I don't see that line outplaying the other team in the playoffs. Everyone here loves hockey. You have to realize the game will always change post season. It's more physical. Especially on the third and fourth lines. Dubas needs two wingers who can keep up and hit. Put them with Kampf on the third line. Use whoever you like on the fourth line ( hopefully not Simmonds). Tampa really improved when their third line really improved. Wash. Rinse. Repeat Dubas.

Engval was at 9.61 hit/60 last playoff 4th in leafs foward group( with at lesdt 3 game)

He would be 4th too with colorado or tampa

Vs mtl at 8.32

So sorry i dont think engval physicality come playoff time was a problem...