Post-Game Talk: Leafs Lose 4-2

[Gabriel426]

I used to want Babcock gone, but lately I have really changed my thinking. I think Dubas needs to go, and Shanahan should certainly accept part of the blame as well. I strongly feel we have some entitled players which is a bad thing. I don’t put all of the blame on the players, because they are looking out for themselves in the end. But how much do they really want to win a championship when they aren’t willing to take some of a discount so that the team can strengthen the areas that need it, like the defense. It is clearly obvious to me that Dubis was not ready for the type of challenge that he encountered in signing these three players. We are in a mess, and it will be very interesting to see how this all pans out. So for me, it’s Dubas and the players, as well as Shanahan that are to blame for the mess that we are in.

Why is this Dubas fault? He didn’t trade for these entitled players, these players were drafted by the Leafs.
Should he traded Willie and Marner the moment they want to drag on their contract negotiations?
The Big 4(Reilly, AM, JT and MM) needs to step up and stand up for one another game in and game out bc that’s they are the leaders of the Leafs. Sofar, they have not done that and I really think they are having a tough time adjusting. Even JT as he is the second oldest regular player on the team, something he is not accustomed to.
They need some vets who can still play the game the hard way(doing all the little things), to show these kids what it takes to be in the league.
If this continues, I think one of the Big 4 I mentioned will be traded and it might hurt in the long run but it will be good for the team in the short run(possible Cup win). Like Kopitar for Marner. Their contract is pretty much the same(AAV and years). Kopitar will help the Leafs in the next 2-3yrs, while Marner will be putting up crazy numbers in LA for the next 6yrs.
Matthews-JT-Willie
Moore-Kopitar-Hyman
Soup-Kerfoot-Kap
Tima-Goat-Shore

that’s still a very good and talented forward group.

 

[thewave]

Matthews saying "All of us needs to be better"... I don't know if I agree with that...

I see guys like Muzzin, Andersen (and even Hutchinson last night), Kerfoot, Moore, Kapanen, Gauthier, Mikheyev and Timashov do their jobs....

The whole team doesn't need to play better.... its primarily those getting paid big bucks that need to play better....

Hard to argue. Siakam just won a championship with the Raps, gets a huge Elite player contract... Comes out and 34pts along with Fred with a matching 34 and basically show the NBA they are real. These guys get big contracts and it's like, I don't even know what. They don't even look like they want to be here out there, they look like whatever Muskoka.

Last season people said they were the least likeable Leafs team we can remember and this year the impression is no different, maybe worse because the team is supposed to be even better.

 

[Clark4Ever]

MLSE history implies that losing doesn't significantly reflect incoming revenue, so I wonder how concerned the MLSE board is with team success from a financial point of view?

Playoff revenue is substantial. With the amount of money invested in the coaching staff and front office, they should be concerned.

 

[Clark4Ever]

I agree with Ports assessment. Too many players on this team do not want to get their hair messed up. Matthews should be looking in the mirror and his own eyes. These high income players are simply not playing to their wage level and I don't know whether they can. If they can't this team is screwed.

They will put up points, but that's not enough.

 

[Gabriel426]

No you’re wrong. It has nothing to do with the head. Skill players develop the skills to score, not the guts to play a hard,
physical style. Dubas needs to surround them with players who can and will. This is mostly on him.

You literally saying skill players are snowflakes and soft and can’t play hard.
I am not asking AM and MM to play like Roberts and Tucker. Just need to stand up for the team when someone shoves and pushes them. That’s what leaders do. Going to use Stamkos again, he fought someone last year and I highly doubt Stamkos is someone who you can call a hard player and tough growing up. It is part of the development in becoming a great player and leader on the team. Wayne might not fight or smash people but if someone shoved him, he didn’t back away. Ofcourse Messier and others will punish that player but Wayne still stood up. Same with Kane or heck even Phil. Not saying you AM and MM need o smash the guy who hit JT or Tima...but at the very least shove back and have a word with that guy. AM sort of did that in preseason against that guy from the Sens, really don’t see why he can’t do that game in and game out.
I bet you if Mitch or AM or Willie ever drop the gloves in a game, the whole team will be awake and start playing hard.

 

[Gabriel426]

Someone posted that Video a couple days ago where Orr and McLaren beat up the Montreal Canadians.
Every Canadian player knew they were so screwed, yet they all tried to do something anyways.

Marner was willing to stop a slap shot with his face in the playoffs. He should have no problem jumping on a guy like Dougie used too.

Marner was a feisty lil bugger right into the OHL. He used to check half often as well.

He has it in him - lol like a marchant jr.

Exactly, no matter how talented these players are, hockey is a physical sports and if they don’t have a backbone, they won’t be able to make it to the NHL. The big 4/leadership wise-Reilly, JT, AM, and MM needs to step up and stand up for the others.
Not saying they should fight but at least shove and check the guy who done wrong to your teammates and if that player continues, drop the gloves and show you are standing up for your team.

 

[IPS]

What stands out most is how little fun everyone seems to be having.

I always figured a team like ours would thrive in a more fun-loving and non serious environment in the locker room where guys can joke around and prank eachother all they want.

You can bet your bottom dollar that's not the environment in the locker room with Babcock there. That guy emanates seriousness and strictness.

Yeah I took it that way too. DeBoer made an interesting comment on PM returning - something along the lines of - he played for babcock - we're going to need to simplify things

I'm still wondering what he exactly meant by that subtle shot he took at Babcock.

Was he poking fun at his ineffective systems or was he pointing out that Babcock slams too much detail into player's minds that it effects their play (as in he meant his quote literally). That sounds like a horrific way to bring up young players, you need to start them off simple and slowly ramp up the details with the more experience they gain.

 

[GoonieFace]

I always figured a team like ours would thrive in a more fun-loving and non serious environment in the locker room where guys can joke around and prank eachother all they want.

You can bet your bottom dollar that's not the environment in the locker room with Babcock there. That guy emanates seriousness and strictness.


I'm still wondering what he exactly meant by that subtle shot he took at Babcock.

Was he poking fun at his ineffective systems or was he pointing out that Babcock slams too much detail into player's minds that it effects their play (as in he meant his quote literally). That sounds like a horrific way to bring up young players, you need to start them off simple and slowly ramp up the details with the more experience they gain.

Hockey systems are not rocket science. These guys are professionals that have been playing the sport since they were 5 years old, learning simple hockey should not be an issue.

 

[AndyWozniewski]

Damn, it looks like Dubas isn't happy with Babs decision making. This is from the Cbj game.

Looks like he's saying "He has to know Kerfoot would be lining up with Jenner". Can any lip reading experts confirm this?

 

[Gabriel426]

I always figured a team like ours would thrive in a more fun-loving and non serious environment in the locker room where guys can joke around and prank eachother all they want.

You can bet your bottom dollar that's not the environment in the locker room with Babcock there. That guy emanates seriousness and strictness.


I'm still wondering what he exactly meant by that subtle shot he took at Babcock.

Was he poking fun at his ineffective systems or was he pointing out that Babcock slams too much detail into player's minds that it effects their play (as in he meant his quote literally). That sounds like a horrific way to bring up young players, you need to start them off simple and slowly ramp up the details with the more experience they gain.

But AM, MM and even Reilly are not even doing the stuff they were doing the past few years. AM might be scoring goals but overall he is not as good as he was when he first entered the league.
Marner is not even buzzing like he used to and definitely not back checking like he did when he played with Bozak and JVR.
Reilly plays is really bad, that may due to the fact that it is his first time playing with someone who is really in him to be the leader of the pair.

 

[Suntouchable13]

If the Leafs get only 1 point or less this weekend, will anything major happen? Or not?

 

[18leafsfan18]

If the Leafs get only 1 point or less this weekend, will anything major happen? Or not?

For me it's to early to make huge decisions, but if it continues well into November there needs to be some sort of change.

 

[ToneDog]

Anbody still think Matty is "lighting it up", playing great defensively and deserved the "C" ??

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Anbody still think Matty is "lighting it up", playing great defensively and deserved the "C" ??

Do you think that applies to Tavares?

 

[ToneDog]

Do you think that applies to Tavares?

Tavares was clearly not playing at his best but put in the effort on both sides of the puck. He was starting to turn it around before the injury. Who claimed anything else ??

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

Burke did not hire Wilson...

You are right.
I thought that, Burke and Wilson having been friends for over 40 years that, Burke had hired him but I was wrong.
Strange situation but did allow Wilson to have more rope than if he had been unknown to Burke.

 

[Gary Nylund]

If this continues, I think one of the Big 4 I mentioned will be traded and it might hurt in the long run but it will be good for the team in the short run(possible Cup win). Like Kopitar for Marner. Their contract is pretty much the same(AAV and years). Kopitar will help the Leafs in the next 2-3yrs, while Marner will be putting up crazy numbers in LA for the next 6yrs.
Matthews-JT-Willie
Moore-Kopitar-Hyman
Soup-Kerfoot-Kap
Tima-Goat-Shore

that’s still a very good and talented forward group.

I think Kopitar for Marner is too extreme but other than than, I agree. At least I agree that's what should be done, we'll see what actually happens. The compete level MUST be increased and if it's at the expense of some skill, that should be more than fine as we have skill to burn.

Playoff revenue is substantial. With the amount of money invested in the coaching staff and front office, they should be concerned.

100% this. They surely expected to cruise to the playoffs for the next X number of years and if that looks to be in serious danger this season, you better believe they'll be more than a little bit concerned.

AM sort of did that in preseason against that guy from the Sens, really don’t see why he can’t do that game in and game out.
I bet you if Mitch or AM or Willie ever drop the gloves in a game, the whole team will be awake and start playing hard.

This. I've been saying it for over a year now - my dream is for Matthews to just slug somebody at the right time. Do that and it's entirely possible that everyone wakes up, kind of a chain reaction.

 

[Future]

Anbody still think Matty is "lighting it up", playing great defensively and deserved the "C" ??

I think Matthews has been awesome this year, but he still has room to improve.

I also think Dubas has done a great job putting together the most talented leafs team of my lifetime.

That all being said, it’s a shame it has to be wasted by such a terrible coach. The system = trash. Player usage = trash. Line matching = trash. Babcock is also terrible as a motivator and installing discipline. Wouldn’t doubt our equally awful coaches of the past could’ve gotten more out of this roster.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Matthews saying "All of us needs to be better"... I don't know if I agree with that...

I see guys like Muzzin, Andersen (and even Hutchinson last night), Kerfoot, Moore, Kapanen, Gauthier, Mikheyev and Timashov do their jobs....

The whole team doesn't need to play better.... its primarily those getting paid big bucks that need to play better....

I wouldn’t have said this last year, but it seems very clear to me now, Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and I think to some extent Reilly, all feel entitled. Somehow, even though they haven’t won piss-all in the playoffs, they believe they deserve to be paid like they’ve won multiple Cups. Lo and behold, they haven’t won jack shit. To me, they have NO desire to win. Otherwise, why in Hell did they have to squeeze every last f***ing penny out of the team???
And Dumbass had to give it to them (and Shanahan certainly needs to shoulder some/most of the blame)! Dumbass seems so smug, like he knows more than anyone else in the room. Aarrghh!!!
We are in cap hell, and I will be very interested to see how Dumbass thinks Pridham can get us out of this! I bleed blue and white, so I hope I am proven wrong.

 

[coupe93]

That's a good team, Boston. But not that good.

Hutch was the least of our problems, which abound. I've avoided the Babcock arguments for the most part, but he is either losing or has lost the room. I'd first question whether he has demanded that the players avoid contact. There's no excuse for the lack of drive and body contact that would slow the opposing teams down. This has been a consistent issue for the Leafs over a long time and while some argue that Dubas is responsible for their lack of physical commitment, I don't believe that to be the case. Yes, for some on the team, but as a team there are enough players here who could adequately fulfill the required physical efforts to greatly improve the Leaf's need to make life difficult for the other team. Matthews would be my first target for asking the question, 'why are you so passive?', followed by Rielly. Both are big, strong young men who could impose their will on the game with more dedication to physical hockey. I can only guess that Babcock is attempting to guide a team mentality that promotes the counter attack at all costs, but it provides no disincentive to the other team to focus on anything other than fearless/cautionless hockey. I cannot wrap my head around it.

If Dermott is not playing RD in practice leading to his return, I'm confused. Ceci/Rielly is not working.
Holl would be another consideration for a move up the line up to replace Ceci.
For those who asked to see Matthews and Marner together, I don't see it working, do you?
A return of Tavares can't come soon enough and I hope when he does he gets in a few faces about effort: Barrie, Matthews, Marner, Nylander are you listening?
I hope Hyman is fully recovered and confident in his knee before he plays a game, we need his effort.

The lack of trust in each other is very apparent. That said, they've had a very difficult opening to the season, schedule wise. Somebody (Tavares please) bring this room together, because the talent is better than the product and this ship can be righted, but not if the team has closed their ears to their coach. I'm guessing the next 10-15 games will be very telling and that Dubas and Shanny will be paying very close attention to the way the product on the ice matches the instructions they've been receiving. Should the product remain the same, I suspect a coaching change will occur in early December.

I think your post is excellent. I agree with most every point with a slight exception to the first bolded. I think Dubas foots a lot of the blame for the lack of physical commitment in having the softest lineup in the NHL.
But yes, I understand your point about current players unwilling to engage physically. Probably easier to teach a gazelle to hunt lion than have Nylander go into a corner and finish a bloody check. Not to single out any one player on purpose because there's more than just Nylander doing flybys. I think if rinks were designed round and without corners, we'd have something special here.

The second bolded is so understated and one of the (if not thee) biggest reasons teams don't respect this group. Teams don't need to check their 6 o'clock or give a second thought going into corners on either the offensive or defensive retrieval. They know most of the time that our player will simple do a touch and go, stick check or flyby and not deliver any meaningfully body-checks.

IMO I believe they're afraid of retaliation and having a physical confrontation knowing nobody in this lineup will have their backs. Somebody earlier in this thread commented on Pastrnak's play and how physical and skilled he plays.
I wonder if Pastrnak were swapped for Nylander if he'd be as physical or effective withing the confines of our non-physical lineup? Knowing that there isn't the likes of a Chara, Backes, Miller, Acciari, McAvoy or Ritchie on this roster who are capable and willing answer the bell. I bet I know the answer.
Who thinks Marchand would be piping off as much, or be nearly as effective, running around with impunity on a roster like ours? Same answer.

 

[rumman]

I think Matthews has been awesome this year, but he still has room to improve.

I also think Dubas has done a great job putting together the most talented leafs team of my lifetime.

That all being said, it’s a shame it has to be wasted by such a terrible coach. The system = trash. Player usage = trash. Line matching = trash. Babcock is also terrible as a motivator and installing discipline. Wouldn’t doubt our equally awful coaches of the past could’ve gotten more out of this roster.

don't like the coach? Blame the GM. GM doesn't have the power to fire said coach? Blame the President. Don't like the President...............

 

[Captain Crunch]

Why is this Dubas fault? He didn’t trade for these entitled players, these players were drafted by the Leafs.
Should he traded Willie and Marner the moment they want to drag on their contract negotiations?
The Big 4(Reilly, AM, JT and MM) needs to step up and stand up for one another game in and game out bc that’s they are the leaders of the Leafs. Sofar, they have not done that and I really think they are having a tough time adjusting. Even JT as he is the second oldest regular player on the team, something he is not accustomed to.
They need some vets who can still play the game the hard way(doing all the little things), to show these kids what it takes to be in the league.
If this continues, I think one of the Big 4 I mentioned will be traded and it might hurt in the long run but it will be good for the team in the short run(possible Cup win). Like Kopitar for Marner. Their contract is pretty much the same(AAV and years). Kopitar will help the Leafs in the next 2-3yrs, while Marner will be putting up crazy numbers in LA for the next 6yrs.
Matthews-JT-Willie
Moore-Kopitar-Hyman
Soup-Kerfoot-Kap
Tima-Goat-Shore

that’s still a very good and talented forward group.

Yes, they could certainly use some vets, but thanks to the greediness of the “big 3”, and the lack of balls by Dumbass and Shanahan, we don’t have any, as in zero, room to sign anyone. I will be pleased to see any of the “big 3” go if it helps us win a Cup.
Wouldn’t have minded paying them at all if they had won us even one Cup. As far as I’m concerned, they’re a greedy bunch of entitled brats.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think Kopitar for Marner is too extreme but other than than, I agree. At least I agree that's what should be done, we'll see what actually happens. The compete level MUST be increased and if it's at the expense of some skill, that should be more than fine as we have skill to burn.



100% this. They surely expected to cruise to the playoffs for the next X number of years and if that looks to be in serious danger this season, you better believe they'll be more than a little bit concerned.



This. I've been saying it for over a year now - my dream is for Matthews to just slug somebody at the right time. Do that and it's entirely possible that everyone wakes up, kind of a chain reaction.

Th Kopitar thing is just something that matches what I am saying. Point I am trying to make is that a shape up will happen if the team continues to play this way and it won’t be a mid 6 fwd like AJ or Kap but it will at the top.

 

[Gabriel426]

Yes, they could certainly use some vets, but thanks to the greediness of the “big 3”, and the lack of balls by Dumbass and Shanahan, we don’t have any, as in zero, room to sign anyone. I will be pleased to see any of the “big 3” go if it helps us win a Cup.
Wouldn’t have minded paying them at all if they had won us even one Cup. As far as I’m concerned, they’re a greedy bunch of entitled brats.

I agree with you and certainly Dubas and even Shanny need to be accountable but I won’t go and blame Dubas bc he has done a good job. He traded for Muzzin(IMO still the best Dman beside Trouba that got either traded or in the market since last Jan.)
Kerfoot and Barrie(he is a lot better than he is showing), for Kadri is a good trade, esp since Kadri is a suspension waiting to happen in the playoffs. Development of players like Moore, Tima and other Marlies.

 

[as Pure as Evil]

we have a disconnect between the coach and players. the coach is trying to run a team like he would with a bunch of soldiers( ie Olympic style roster) we are a young team beaming with individuals and personalities it just seems like the coach wants robots to do his bidding and cant fathom why guys 24 and under aren't conforming .

it actually reminds me of money ball. the coach wont play the game the way the roster was made up to play. until he does we will have lots of nights like this.

don't get me wrong the unholy trio need to be better and they have all the tools to be but when you go to work and cant stand your boss it doesn't matter sooner or later you have enough.