Post-Game Talk: Leafs Lose 4-2

[ToneDog]

I think Matthews has been awesome this year, but he still has room to improve.

I also think Dubas has done a great job putting together the most talented leafs team of my lifetime.

That all being said, it’s a shame it has to be wasted by such a terrible coach. The system = trash. Player usage = trash. Line matching = trash. Babcock is also terrible as a motivator and installing discipline. Wouldn’t doubt our equally awful coaches of the past could’ve gotten more out of this roster.

Agree with most of what you say but talent alone is not enough. I believe we are missing an ingredient or two.

 

[MyBudJT]

You are right.
I thought that, Burke and Wilson having been friends for over 40 years that, Burke had hired him but I was wrong.
Strange situation but did allow Wilson to have more rope than if he had been unknown to Burke.

Conversely, I would argue Dubas helped hire Babcock.

Dubas was the interim GM when the leafs hired Babcock. Although ultimately it was a Shanahan descision, there is no doubt that Dubas had a voice in the hire.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Maple Leafs' Auston Matthews calls out team after Bruins loss - Sportsnet.ca

Interesting quote by Matthews too:

“They kind of do things differently,” he said of Marchand, Pastrnak and Patrice Bergeron. “For us, [the coaches] kind of preach a guy in the slot, a guy on the net and then a guy in the corner, but they’re kind of all over the place. Their ‘D’ get active and it’s really hard to defend and they obviously do a good job of finding each other.”

Best post in this thread.

That’s an indirect criticism of the coach if I’ve ever seen one. I don’t think Babcock lasts out the season. Can’t fire him with his Captain out injured, and injuries to other key players like Dermott, but sooner rather than later that call will have to be made.

 

[The Masters]

I think people are jumping the gun on Babs. Yes team is struggling but I think Dubas and Shanny let it play out this season and see where the team falls. Then in the off-season you do your homework on who you want in the club.

See the problem is, if they let go of Babs during the season, they will be tempted to put Keefe there. They need to do their homework on a proper coaching search and someone who fits this playing style. It very well may end up being Keefe, but I think as an exec you need to do all your homework and then make that decision.

Then on the flip if they fire Babs and let one of his assitants take over, whats the point in that? Might as well let Babs ride it out and see what happens.

 

[GoonieFace]

Best post in this thread.

That’s an indirect criticism of the coach if I’ve ever seen one. I don’t think Babcock lasts out the season. Can’t fire him with his Captain out injured, and injuries to other key players like Dermott, but sooner rather than later that call will have to be made.

Its alot easier to play that way when you have 3 all-stars on your line, one of the best defensive centers on your line and one of the better forecheckers/pests on your line. Matthews/Nylander and whoever else dont have the complete games to play that way and get away with it.

 

[meefer]

I think your post is excellent. I agree with most every point with a slight exception to the first bolded. I think Dubas foots a lot of the blame for the lack of physical commitment in having the softest lineup in the NHL.
But yes, I understand your point about current players unwilling to engage physically. Probably easier to teach a gazelle to hunt lion than have Nylander go into a corner and finish a bloody check. Not to single out any one player on purpose because there's more than just Nylander doing flybys. I think if rinks were designed round and without corners, we'd have something special here.

The second bolded is so understated and one of the (if not thee) biggest reasons teams don't respect this group. Teams don't need to check their 6 o'clock or give a second thought going into corners on either the offensive or defensive retrieval. They know most of the time that our player will simple do a touch and go, stick check or flyby and not deliver any meaningfully body-checks.

IMO I believe they're afraid of retaliation and having a physical confrontation knowing nobody in this lineup will have their backs. Somebody earlier in this thread commented on Pastrnak's play and how physical and skilled he plays.
I wonder if Pastrnak were swapped for Nylander if he'd be as physical or effective withing the confines of our non-physical lineup? Knowing that there isn't the likes of a Chara, Backes, Miller, Acciari, McAvoy or Ritchie on this roster who are capable and willing answer the bell. I bet I know the answer.
Who thinks Marchand would be piping off as much, or be nearly as effective, running around with impunity on a roster like ours? Same answer.

Thanks for the compliment at the beginning, but now to my response to the bolded
Ceci, 6'2" 209
Goat, 6'5" 235
Gravel, 6'4" 212
Holl, 6'4" 224
Kapanen, 6'1" 195
Marincin, 6'5" 213
Matthews, 6'3" 220
Mikheyev, 6'2 190
Muzz
Nyl
Shore
Rielly
Tavares
Timoshev
(Dermott and Hyman)

They're all over 190, young and strong. They're fully capable of playing a more physical brand of hockey. Not necessarily rock em sock em, but complete your check style, bump and grind, lean on them...we've 14 players who have the tools to play a more physical game...yet we don't. I'm not advocating they look to bury their check, but a commitment to finishing a check should be a no brainer as far as holding the other team more accountable. While I don't expect W Nylander to become W Beelander, I can't see why he can't play a more physical game then what we're seeing when he plays like W Fleelander (sorry, I just had to).

 

[thewave]

Thanks for the compliment at the beginning, but now to my response to the bolded
Ceci, 6'2" 209
Goat, 6'5" 235
Gravel, 6'4" 212
Holl, 6'4" 224
Kapanen, 6'1" 195
Marincin, 6'5" 213
Matthews, 6'3" 220
Mikheyev, 6'2 190
Muzz
Nyl
Shore
Rielly
Tavares
Timoshev
(Dermott and Hyman)

They're all over 190, young and strong. They're fully capable of playing a more physical brand of hockey. Not necessarily rock em sock em, but complete your check style, bump and grind, lean on them...we've 14 players who have the tools to play a more physical game...yet we don't. I'm not advocating they look to bury their check, but a commitment to finishing a check should be a no brainer as far as holding the other team more accountable. While I don't expect W Nylander to become W Beelander, I can't see why he can't play a more physical game then what we're seeing when he plays like W Fleelander (sorry, I just had to).

They should just fire Babcock and get it over with then. I haven't seen any improvements and the drama is annoying as anything.

 

[GoonieFace]

Thanks for the compliment at the beginning, but now to my response to the bolded
Ceci, 6'2" 209
Goat, 6'5" 235
Gravel, 6'4" 212
Holl, 6'4" 224
Kapanen, 6'1" 195
Marincin, 6'5" 213
Matthews, 6'3" 220
Mikheyev, 6'2 190
Muzz
Nyl
Shore
Rielly
Tavares
Timoshev
(Dermott and Hyman)

They're all over 190, young and strong. They're fully capable of playing a more physical brand of hockey. Not necessarily rock em sock em, but complete your check style, bump and grind, lean on them...we've 14 players who have the tools to play a more physical game...yet we don't. I'm not advocating they look to bury their check, but a commitment to finishing a check should be a no brainer as far as holding the other team more accountable. While I don't expect W Nylander to become W Beelander, I can't see why he can't play a more physical game then what we're seeing when he plays like W Fleelander (sorry, I just had to).

Yep, he built a team of stay puft marshmellow men.

 

[coupe93]

Thanks for the compliment at the beginning, but now to my response to the bolded
Ceci, 6'2" 209
Goat, 6'5" 235
Gravel, 6'4" 212
Holl, 6'4" 224
Kapanen, 6'1" 195
Marincin, 6'5" 213
Matthews, 6'3" 220
Mikheyev, 6'2 190
Muzz
Nyl
Shore
Rielly
Tavares
Timoshev
(Dermott and Hyman)

They're all over 190, young and strong. They're fully capable of playing a more physical brand of hockey. Not necessarily rock em sock em, but complete your check style, bump and grind, lean on them...we've 14 players who have the tools to play a more physical game...yet we don't. I'm not advocating they look to bury their check, but a commitment to finishing a check should be a no brainer as far as holding the other team more accountable. While I don't expect W Nylander to become W Beelander, I can't see why he can't play a more physical game then what we're seeing when he plays like W Fleelander (sorry, I just had to).

I understand and fully agree with what you're saying. But of the guys you've listed with decent size, how many of them do you think would initiate and engage if say "Tavares" was run hard (pretty good example I think)? How many would be interested in sending a message that this isn't acceptable? Maybe 1, Gravel (maybe)?

This doesn't necessarily have to mean going over and dropping the gloves. Skating over and telling them in no uncertain terms that he's on your radar sometime is all it takes. We don't have these types of players. A player or two in the lineup that makes a Marner or Nylander play a few inches taller, without fear. Or a collection of players that would be willing to answer the bell (like the Bruins current roster does). We have none.

This points to a GM and/or Coach without the will or belief in the value of these type of players. This type of balance is missing IMHO. And Dubas is responsible for this.

 

[Legendary]

If Dubas can’t fire Babcock because of Shanahan then fire Dubas and Shanahan as well.

 

[hector morrison]

Interesting take and I agree with your 3 numbered points. With that said, does high skilled fast paced hockey and playing with some fire, standing up for teammates, defending one self, forechecking hard have to be mutually exclusive? There are several teams in the league that have chosen to go the route of building a skilled team and none are such pushovers. If there are any such examples, hey I'm pretty open minded. If anyone can list such an example I'll spend a week or two exclusively watching their games and see if they play like the leafs but I can pretty much guarantee it's impossible to find such teams in the NHL.

I wonder if the players feel any shame and are told to play this way or that they have just to tuned out the coach and by extension each other as well

I can't be sure of much...just observation really. The Leafs do not have a Power Forward ,nor do they have a 'Don't even think about getting close to my goalie" type of Dman. Not even any pests to get under the skin of the opposition. They are the nicest guys in the league! As far as the players accepting the 'walk away' strategy? Well,I'm sure a few of them are glad to do it..likely never had a fight in junior,so why start now. I'm not saying they should risk hurting their hands or whatever,but there has to be a limit.

The entire League seems to be quite friendly actually. Not sure if this affects competitiveness,but since the League doesn't want fighting ,I would think that the emotions/hatred is kept in check. Fighting was /is largely a North American thing and with the large influx of Europeans it is probably a natural progression that the number of 'tough guys' is down (almost extinct). For some,it's a good thing. But when the police(refs/league) aren't doing their job ,what recourse does a team have?

 

[hector morrison]

Babs has become predictable because of the players he has to work with. A good example of this is: Most teams have a top 6 that can rotate to any position on the PP if need be. How many players in our top six can you say the same for. This is why he has to match lines, because he has the same problem with a few players he has to play. A couple of them cannot rotate at the drop of a hat even at 5V5.
Dubas is at fault. A GM should always consult with the head coach. Especially when signing big ticket players..

I'm not sure if the players aren't doing what they are told ...or ...are not able to do what they are told. Perhaps Babs is asking the players to do something they can't...maybe his strategy is lousy (personally,I think it is,because he keeps doing the same thing and not getting results).

As far as blaming Dubas? Apparently they communicate every day ,so I would think Babs has some input on the player selection.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I think people are jumping the gun on Babs. Yes team is struggling but I think Dubas and Shanny let it play out this season and see where the team falls. Then in the off-season you do your homework on who you want in the club.

See the problem is, if they let go of Babs during the season, they will be tempted to put Keefe there. They need to do their homework on a proper coaching search and someone who fits this playing style. It very well may end up being Keefe, but I think as an exec you need to do all your homework and then make that decision.

Then on the flip if they fire Babs and let one of his assitants take over, whats the point in that? Might as well let Babs ride it out and see what happens.

You can't waste this season, though. They can't just wait things out.

 

[hector morrison]

can this be anymore MORONIC??????

berg,Pasta,March play grindy hockey

want to know why babs has to put a grinder with matty,nylander

these 2 wallflowers have a COMBINED total of 3 hits on the season.

Seriously? Hitting? Maybe check on the number of hits those 'grinders ' have so far this year...yeah,a real force out there with the 'hitting game' ...The idea of having 3 talented guys is better than 2 talented guys...as witnessed almost every single time the Leafs play Boston. Moronic indeed!

 

[biotk]

I think people are jumping the gun on Babs. Yes team is struggling but I think Dubas and Shanny let it play out this season and see where the team falls. Then in the off-season you do your homework on who you want in the club.

See the problem is, if they let go of Babs during the season, they will be tempted to put Keefe there. They need to do their homework on a proper coaching search and someone who fits this playing style. It very well may end up being Keefe, but I think as an exec you need to do all your homework and then make that decision.

Then on the flip if they fire Babs and let one of his assitants take over, whats the point in that? Might as well let Babs ride it out and see what happens.

Team has been struggling for 10 months now. If the head office hasn't already done their homework on who they would want to coach in the event that Babcock is not there then this team needs a new head office. They should always have a list of potential coaches who would be suitable to take over - even if the team is doing great - as was the case with Badger Bob getting diagnosed with brain cancer just before the pre-season after winning the cup with the Pens.

 

[biotk]

You can't waste this season, though. They can't just wait things out.

Oh they can waste this season. They really shouldn't.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Oh they can waste this season. They really shouldn't.

Whatever, not my money they are flushing down the drain. Payroll this season is over 100 mil.

 

[hector morrison]

I completely agree. I think the Bruins top line is dangerous bc all three of them can score, pass and drive to the net. Something I think a combo of Matthews-JT and Willie/Marner can provide.

It's early in the season..things aren't going great. Experiment now! I'm sure it is easier said than done,but gotta do something!

 

[frizzer1]

you don’t start trading players before a new coach has been hired.
If the problems persist then you can explore trades.
Not before.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

On the plus side, if the wheels do come off they can sell Barrie, Spezza, Muzzin, AJ, Gauthier, and Ceci at the deadline for a king’s ransom

 

[Notsince67]

What? He was good in game 1 last year but was garbage for the following 6 games. Not sure what you were watching. Matthews was way better in last years series than Marner was.

Marner was responsible for 2 of 3 wins. Matthews was better when we lost

 

[The Masters]

Team has been struggling for 10 months now. If the head office hasn't already done their homework on who they would want to coach in the event that Babcock is not there then this team needs a new head office. They should always have a list of potential coaches who would be suitable to take over - even if the team is doing great - as was the case with Badger Bob getting diagnosed with brain cancer just before the pre-season after winning the cup with the Pens.

You still need to do a thorough interview process especially for someone like Kyle who has never hired a head coach before. You obviously can't do this while the job isn't vacant.

It has to be a slam dunk hire, no question.

 

[rumman]

You can't waste this season, though. They can't just wait things out.

they can, and most likely will.

 

[Suntouchable13]

they can, and most likely will.

Ok, but they are spending over 100 mil on payroll this season so they do it at their own risk.

 

[rumman]

On the plus side, if the wheels do come off they can sell Barrie, Spezza, Muzzin, AJ, Gauthier, and Ceci at the deadline for a king’s ransom