Post-Game Talk: Leafs Lose 4-2

[Gary Nylund]

It is still early in the season. Of all the teams that stepped on the gas to begin last season, none won the cup. This is a very talented bunch. They will be fine. Closer to the holiday break we will see what we really have. Come January Matthews and Marner can step on the gas. Why get burned out in October.

You mean like last season? When they missed the gas pedal and have been stuck in neutral ever since?

 

[ULF_55]

I've heard the Leafs have been mediocre since January.

So that would indicate that is who they are, not a blip.

Leafs are 19th. for points percentage.
Leafs are 6th. best in goals for per game.
Leafs are 24th. best in goals against per game.
Allow 5th. most shots against.

Points%
Last 3 years combined 6th.
Last 2 years combined 10th.
This year 19th.



In the league, Even Strength Points
Matthews tied for 10
Mikeyev, Rielly, tied for 20th.
Kerfoot, Nylander, Tavares, Kapanen, marner tied for 66 for even strength points

 

[Trapper]

I have no doubt that Mathews has the talent to be the 2nd best player in the league, however he won't ever get their with his mail it in efforts, even in games he plays well you just know he has so much more to give.......

Skill + will. That needs to be evaluated.
Matthews and Marner are being paid to be McDavid and Draisaitl not Bozak/JVR/Kessel.

If you don't have the drive train, then a time needs to come where you just take the train.

 

[weems]

Some uncomfortable themes are developing.
The Leafs have shown a profound lack of discipline in the last four games — giving opponents 17 power plays, including a pair to the Bruins courtesy of Andreas Johnsson in a perplexing 52-second stretch that allowed Boston to take a 1-0 lead on Tuesday.
They’ve also demonstrated an inability to negotiate tight moments and squeeze out victories. This was a 2-2 game with 20 minutes to play and there wasn’t much push, especially after Brett Ritchie scored off a broken play at 6:35.

What stands out most is how little fun everyone seems to be having.
Whether that’s a product of the sky-high expectations, of the hectic schedule, of all the new faces still searching for a niche — or some combination of those factors — only those on the inside can truly know.

Maple Leafs' Auston Matthews calls out team after Bruins loss - Sportsnet.ca


Interesting quote by Matthews too:

“They kind of do things differently,” he said of Marchand, Pastrnak and Patrice Bergeron. “For us, [the coaches] kind of preach a guy in the slot, a guy on the net and then a guy in the corner, but they’re kind of all over the place. Their ‘D’ get active and it’s really hard to defend and they obviously do a good job of finding each other.”

That's basically like saying the Bruins are allowed to be fluid and just play whereas the Leafs are being micro managed and forced into playing a rigid system with little deviance.

 

[rumman]

Let it happen. In order to expose other underlying issues we know exist, you have to start cutting the snake until you get to the head. Perfect opportunity to start the dissection.

won't happen, Dubas needs Babcock to be this year's scapegoat. Whether you love or hate Babcock this isn't a coaching problem, what this team needs is a heart transplant.

 

[ShaneFalco]

That's basically like saying the Bruins are allowed to be fluid and just play whereas the Leafs are being micro managed and forced into playing a rigid system with little deviance.

Yeah I took it that way too. DeBoer made an interesting comment on PM returning - something along the lines of - he played for babcock - we're going to need to simplify things

 

[Nineteen67]

This 'style' of no retaliation,non aggressive (physically) hockey ,must be by design. They are going with speed/skill as much as possible. I get it,but I bet it's somewhat embarrassing for a Leaf player deep down to be constantly on the receiving end. Leaf management think it is smart hockey. Perhaps it is! Yet ,somehow it hasn't translated into more Power Plays ,which would justify the '***** hockey ' that they are playing. Also,it's embarrassing as a fan to see the player's not stick up for each other.It must be for them as well.

The low point of the season,thus far ,for me was watching the newly crowned Captain get crunched against the boards by Webber. No retaliation from anyone on the ice and no retaliation after the fact. Clean hit or not,(I don't think it was)that needed to be addressed. That single act made me question whether I really wanted to watch anymore of this brand of hockey. I still am ,but I'm not diggin' it!

The high point of the season for me so far,and I didn't even think he should have a job on the Leafs,was Marincin putting the headlock on Backes and the ensuing take down ,for running Freddy. Muzzin did something similar to kissy-face Marchand later in the game. This is a recent development,maybe they figured that Freddy on the shelf for a while is worth more than a 2 minute PP opportunity to 'make them pay'. I hope the protection continues with even more aggression!

I originally thought that,when the Leafs hired Shanny to be at the helm and his trust in the bright young analytic Gm,Dubas who was mentored by Lou Lam,the talented young players acquired through the draft/trades,along with the high profile coach would finally lead to success. It is hard to criticize the regular season improvement...yet,too easy to make excuses for the playoff exits. I know it's easy to suggest(amongst other deficiencies) that a few tougher players would of helped...but it would of!

This management/coaching strategy of getting players to buy into the discipline of knowing that being tough means you have to 'take the guff and ya suffer' (Stompin'Toms lyrics) need to realize that:

1) Most teams don't have a PP success rate of more than 25% ,so 1 in 4 chances isn't a good rate of 'making them pay for their infractions',it really isn't the best equalizer. Especially if that player gets injured on the play! If other teams know(and they do) that the Leafs don't retaliate,it will be(is) open season on all Leaf players.

2)Relying on the questionable integrity of the refs. The Leafs are one of the fastest/skilled teams but are not getting the calls. So,the strategy of playing nice isn't working!Last in the League over the past 4 years or close to it. Maybe they(the refs) don't like Babs! 4 years and it still isn't working out! Maybe try some other strategy!

3) Intimidation is a real thing,it is used and dealt with in a variety of ways.Anyone who has played competitive physical sports knows this. Leaf management can ask their players to put up with the dirty play,the non calls,etc...let the refs/league do the policing,but they cannot expect the players to not be affected by the intimidation factor.It isn't a realistic expectation.Makes it difficult to feel like you're part of a team when you're not allowed to back each other up.

Anyway,I was almost buying into the attitude of a tough guy being a waste of a roster space or a liability,but after witnessing the first 10 games,I think it's very necessary to have one or two players who won't put up with the other team taking liberties. Even if it means taking a number for later,picking your spots or whatever,I think the young lads would appreciate someone to provide protection. Yes ,it would be great if that player(s) were a decent hockey playeras well,but I'm not sure the Leafs can afford not to have someone who can take care of business!

Great points. However, this speed skill stuff is no good if you don’t possess some drive with it. Other players are pros too and you can’t make it easy for them to defend against you.

I posted in another thread an example of how Nylander and Mikheyev didn’t drive to the net on partial breaks and elected to take a low percentage shots when they could have easily lowered their shoulder and drove into the centre of the slot and crease forcing the defender and goalie to work harder to stop them.

Conversely, Kuraly had similar opportunity, and he forced himself into the slot and actually was pushed into the goalie creating chaos.

This is just an example to illustrate that it’s easy to defend the skill and speed because they’re not all McDavid fast blow past people with silky hands.

When Nylander plays like this example he’s basically useless. There’s a reason Kuraly scores in games 7 and goes to the SCF and Nylander is playing in the WHC.

 

[ShaneFalco]

"He has so much time there..... "

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

not a great look

 

[killer1980]

2 Years ago, right from the opening faceoff, I told my wife, these guys are fun and they were. They flew up and down the ice. They were having fun and so were we watching them. Now, the spark has gone. The games are boring. The passion and fire is gone. We leave now in the middle of the game, even if it's a close score. Lots of possible reasons why, kids have too much money and don't care, terrible coach, terrible GM, maybe Kadri was that physical spark they needed, Hyman injury. Whatever reason they suck for themselves and for their fans and if they continue down this road, this will be a short, uneventful season.

 

[Clark4Ever]

The players are accountable for their apathy, but regardless, Babs is going to be on a short leash soon.

Something has to be done to light a spark under these guys.

 

[Gary Nylund]

2 Years ago, right from the opening faceoff, I told my wife, these guys are fun and they were. They flew up and down the ice. They were having fun and so were we watching them. Now, the spark has gone. The games are boring. The passion and fire is gone. We leave now in the middle of the game, even if it's a close score. Lots of possible reasons why, kids have too much money and don't care, terrible coach, terrible GM, maybe Kadri was that physical spark they needed, Hyman injury. Whatever reason they suck for themselves and for their fans and if they continue down this road, this will be a short, uneventful season.

Yup. This to me is the biggest problem by far. I can't say for sure but I suspect Babcock could be the problem here. And if it's true that he's the one who's sucked the fun out of playing hockey for the Leafs then there's only one solution.

 

[ShaneFalco]

 

[thewave]

Yup. This to me is the biggest problem by far. I can't say for sure but I suspect Babcock could be the problem here. And if it's true that he's the one who's sucked the fun out of playing hockey for the Leafs then there's only one solution.

There aren't many things...

1. Hate the coach
2. Contract competition, money, jealousy
3. Some people don't like each other

Any which way the only thing that can destroy to fun or that spark is above. I suppose life priorities, family etc could play a part as well, or just not loving the game anymore.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I hear a lot of Babcock saying the players need to be better and the players saying they need to be better, but not so much of the coaches needing to be better. And they've been pretty lousy

 

[Gary Nylund]

There aren't many things...

1. Hate the coach
2. Contract competition, money, jealousy
3. Some people don't like each other

Any which way the only thing that can destroy to fun or that spark is above. I suppose life priorities, family etc could play a part as well, or just not loving the game anymore.

Any of those choices could lead to not loving the game any more.

If the problem is #1 then the problem is easily fixed.

If the problem is #2 or #3 then we're basically screwed as finding out what exactly the problem are then fixing it may take years, probably more years then Babs has left on his contract.

The next move seems obvious - let's fire the coach and find out. Nothing to lose and a helluva lot to gain.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

Very fair.

Just like when he had Marleau on the Ice over Matthews in game 7 and was questioned on it:
"We thought Patty was the right choice"
No Mike.... YOU though Patty was the right choice, nobody else on the planet did.

 

[MyBudJT]

I hear a lot of Babcock saying the players need to be better and the players saying they need to be better, but not so much of the coaches needing to be better. And they've been pretty lousy

What poor coaching decisions has Babcock made recently?

 

[stickty111]

Please tell me Dubas was complaining about Babcock there.
If you read lips, it seems like he might be saying that.

 

[thewave]

Any of those choices could lead to not loving the game any more.

If the problem is #1 then the problem is easily fixed.

If the problem is #2 or #3 then we're basically screwed as finding out what exactly the problem are then fixing it may take years, probably more years then Babs has left on his contract.

The next move seems obvious - let's fire the coach and find out. Nothing to lose and a helluva lot to gain.

I would do coach first. Just change him and if that doesn't go well you can maybe try a second coach and if not that it's Dubas and restructure.

 

[killer1980]

The next move seems obvious - let's fire the coach and find out. Nothing to lose and a helluva lot to gain.

The big problem that is more important to these big corporations than winning is financial. Guess what, if they fire the coach, your cable, internet and cell phone bill will go up. So, for the fans it's a lose lose situation. Keep the coach and the team sucks, fire the coach (and as far as I'm concerned the entire management team) and tickets and all those other costs go up so a few incompetent bums can lay around, play golf and collect millions. As is so often the case, it's the fans that get screwed.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I would do coach first. Just change him and if that doesn't go well you can maybe try a second coach and if not that it's Dubas and restructure.

Deal.

 

[thewave]

Deal.

At this point the underlying drama with Babs and all the conversation alone, along with performance right now. I would fire him at the latest g25. That's enough time to see what's going on.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I've heard the Leafs have been mediocre since January.

So that would indicate that is who they are, not a blip.

Leafs are 19th. for points percentage.
Leafs are 6th. best in goals for per game.
Leafs are 24th. best in goals against per game.
Allow 5th. most shots against.

Points%
Last 3 years combined 6th.
Last 2 years combined 10th.
This year 19th.



In the league, Even Strength Points
Matthews tied for 10
Mikeyev, Rielly, tied for 20th.
Kerfoot, Nylander, Tavares, Kapanen, marner tied for 66 for even strength points

Goals against is seriously bad. Shots against is why 39 37, 46 last three

 

[Gary Nylund]

At this point the underlying drama with Babs and all the conversation alone, along with performance right now. I would fire him at the latest g25. That's enough time to see what's going on.

I see it now and I'd fire him now. Of course I was ready to fire him in the spring so take that for FWIW. And of course it won't happen now because of optics, coach making too much money, Tavares out, a few other guys too, Freddie's SV% sucks etc, just too many straws to grasp on to for the moment. Now if JT comes back and we're still spinning our wheels a few weeks after that, then I could see it happening. So g25 might be about right, hope we're not 14 points behind Buffalo by then.