Post-Game Talk: Leafs Lose 4-2

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This was painful to watch. Matthews and Marner playing again like 4 to 6 million players at best. Bergeron showing AM again how to play a 200 foot game. It's not Matthews first or second year in the league, I'm very worried.

At least Kapanen is showing far better hockey IQ than ever, Holl for some games now that he can play in the NHL (and should get a chance beside Rielly, Ceci is not capable), Kerfoot and Mikheyev that they are very good new additions, Gauthier still strong.

I know, the underlying numbers are better than ever and we'll turn it around, but ...
 
Then why were the statistics about hits "shocking"?
Never said they were mate. Hits are also subjective in how they are recorded. One player could actively engage in a scrum trying to dig a puck out and make it hell for the defense trying to break out whereas another could do a stick fly by and turn towards the bench with their tail tucked bw their legs and both will probably be recorded as 0 hits delivered. Not every small amount of contact counts as a hit in most arenas I would imagine. It varies arena to arena depending on who's tracking it
 
Never said they were mate. Hits are also subjective in how they are recorded. One player could actively engage in a scrum trying to dig a puck out and make it hell for the defense trying to break out whereas another could do a stick fly by and walk to the bench with their tail tucked bw their legs and both will be recorded as 0 hits delivered. Not every small amount of contact counts as a hit in most arenas I would imagine. It varies arena to arena depending on who's tracking it
I don't think anyone records it when no hit is delivered
 
Nylander also is playing well except for a couple games. He accepted his criticism and playing up to his potential. Lets see if Marner can as well.
Nylander plays in spurts only. Tons of talent but no intensity. Avoids contact and constantly does flybys.
 
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I don't think anyone records it when no hit is delivered
Only point is that it's somewhat varied in how it's recorded and that not every worthy effort on the forecheck will be recorded as a hit. Doesn't mean that the effort is futile and that stick fly bys are the way to go lol
 
Imo even in his sophomore season he didnt show that drive that he did during his first season. If it had happened right after he got that extension I’d agree with you but he hasn’t looked the same since the Washington series
Drinking problem ?
 
He was a pretty good comparable.... He just exploded AFTER he signed his contract. He also plays way better against the Leafs than any other team which gives Leaf fans a bit of a biased opinion.


He had 2 seasons of .5ppg (where he didn't even play full seasons) and 1 season where he scored 34g/70pts. That's fairly comparable to a guy with 2x 60pt seasons.

Pastrnak just kept getting better after his extension (ppg and then 81pts in 66games) whereas Nylander had a terrible season last year.
Nylander will never be the player Pasternak is. No heart.
 
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well, prior to getting paid, he was soft because he didn't want to get injured and not get paid.

now he gets paid, he is soft because he gets paid...

or maybe, just maybe (hear me out here), maybe Matthews is just SOFT and it has nothing to do with coaching, getting paid, or anything else...

I know, crazy.
Not crazy at all. No evidence to the contrary that’s for sure.
 
Nylander will never be the player Pasternak is. No heart.
Would Pastrnak be the player he is today if the Leafs drafted him instead of Boston? Or would he be a 60-70 pt Nylander? Both were close friends so I imagine must have had some similar personality traits. Nylander was always regarded as the better player from what I've read.
 
I'm glad I'm not going crazy and not the only one noticing. It's like these guys didn't grow up playing hockey on this planet but in an alternate reality where everyone just gives hugs and drinks at every whistle to their opponents all game. I've never seen a more gutless team to be honest. How can this team be like this when 30 other teams aren't?? It can't just be the players. It's the same NHL players from the same leagues everyone else has
This 'style' of no retaliation,non aggressive (physically) hockey ,must be by design. They are going with speed/skill as much as possible. I get it,but I bet it's somewhat embarrassing for a Leaf player deep down to be constantly on the receiving end. Leaf management think it is smart hockey. Perhaps it is! Yet ,somehow it hasn't translated into more Power Plays ,which would justify the 'p***y hockey ' that they are playing. Also,it's embarrassing as a fan to see the player's not stick up for each other.It must be for them as well.

The low point of the season,thus far ,for me was watching the newly crowned Captain get crunched against the boards by Webber. No retaliation from anyone on the ice and no retaliation after the fact. Clean hit or not,(I don't think it was)that needed to be addressed. That single act made me question whether I really wanted to watch anymore of this brand of hockey. I still am ,but I'm not diggin' it!

The high point of the season for me so far,and I didn't even think he should have a job on the Leafs,was Marincin putting the headlock on Backes and the ensuing take down ,for running Freddy. Muzzin did something similar to kissy-face Marchand later in the game. This is a recent development,maybe they figured that Freddy on the shelf for a while is worth more than a 2 minute PP opportunity to 'make them pay'. I hope the protection continues with even more aggression!

I originally thought that,when the Leafs hired Shanny to be at the helm and his trust in the bright young analytic Gm,Dubas who was mentored by Lou Lam,the talented young players acquired through the draft/trades,along with the high profile coach would finally lead to success. It is hard to criticize the regular season improvement...yet,too easy to make excuses for the playoff exits. I know it's easy to suggest(amongst other deficiencies) that a few tougher players would of helped...but it would of!

This management/coaching strategy of getting players to buy into the discipline of knowing that being tough means you have to 'take the guff and ya suffer' (Stompin'Toms lyrics) need to realize that:

1) Most teams don't have a PP success rate of more than 25% ,so 1 in 4 chances isn't a good rate of 'making them pay for their infractions',it really isn't the best equalizer. Especially if that player gets injured on the play! If other teams know(and they do) that the Leafs don't retaliate,it will be(is) open season on all Leaf players.

2)Relying on the questionable integrity of the refs. The Leafs are one of the fastest/skilled teams but are not getting the calls. So,the strategy of playing nice isn't working!Last in the League over the past 4 years or close to it. Maybe they(the refs) don't like Babs! 4 years and it still isn't working out! Maybe try some other strategy!

3) Intimidation is a real thing,it is used and dealt with in a variety of ways.Anyone who has played competitive physical sports knows this. Leaf management can ask their players to put up with the dirty play,the non calls,etc...let the refs/league do the policing,but they cannot expect the players to not be affected by the intimidation factor.It isn't a realistic expectation.Makes it difficult to feel like you're part of a team when you're not allowed to back each other up.

Anyway,I was almost buying into the attitude of a tough guy being a waste of a roster space or a liability,but after witnessing the first 10 games,I think it's very necessary to have one or two players who won't put up with the other team taking liberties. Even if it means taking a number for later,picking your spots or whatever,I think the young lads would appreciate someone to provide protection. Yes ,it would be great if that player(s) were a decent hockey playeras well,but I'm not sure the Leafs can afford not to have someone who can take care of business!
 
Really though, how bad of a stretch of games do the Leafs need to have before management starts entertaining the possibility of firing babcock?

Something just tells me that the Leafs are going to continue being just good enough to hold off on pulling the trigger on any drastic change like that, and still bad enough to be on a guaranteed road to another 1st round exit. Really the worst place to be.
 
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Would Pastrnak be the player he is today if the Leafs drafted him instead of Boston? Or would he be a 60-70 pt Nylander? Both were close friends so I imagine must have had some similar personality traits. Nylander was always regarded as the better player from what I've read.
Pasta seems to be the more accurate shooter,so maybe he is shooting more.Also ,he is playing with 2 allstars,not just one. Babs don't roll like that! Gotta have a grinder ,3 allstars doesn't work for Babs.
 
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Really though, how bad of a stretch of games do the Leafs need to have before management starts entertaining the possibility of firing babcock?

Something just tells me that the Leafs are going to continue being just good enough to hold off on pulling the trigger on any drastic change like that, and still bad enough to be on a guaranteed road to another 1st round exit. Really the worst place to be.
Twenty...Twenty games is your answer...but that isn't likely to happen.
 
This 'style' of no retaliation,non aggressive (physically) hockey ,must be by design. They are going with speed/skill as much as possible. I get it,but I bet it's somewhat embarrassing for a Leaf player deep down to be constantly on the receiving end. Leaf management think it is smart hockey. Perhaps it is! Yet ,somehow it hasn't translated into more Power Plays ,which would justify the '***** hockey ' that they are playing. Also,it's embarrassing as a fan to see the player's not stick up for each other.It must be for them as well.

The low point of the season,thus far ,for me was watching the newly crowned Captain get crunched against the boards by Webber. No retaliation from anyone on the ice and no retaliation after the fact. Clean hit or not,(I don't think it was)that needed to be addressed. That single act made me question whether I really wanted to watch anymore of this brand of hockey. I still am ,but I'm not diggin' it!

The high point of the season for me so far,and I didn't even think he should have a job on the Leafs,was Marincin putting the headlock on Backes and the ensuing take down ,for running Freddy. Muzzin did something similar to kissy-face Marchand later in the game. This is a recent development,maybe they figured that Freddy on the shelf for a while is worth more than a 2 minute PP opportunity to 'make them pay'. I hope the protection continues with even more aggression!

I originally thought that,when the Leafs hired Shanny to be at the helm and his trust in the bright young analytic Gm,Dubas who was mentored by Lou Lam,the talented young players acquired through the draft/trades,along with the high profile coach would finally lead to success. It is hard to criticize the regular season improvement...yet,too easy to make excuses for the playoff exits. I know it's easy to suggest(amongst other deficiencies) that a few tougher players would of helped...but it would of!

This management/coaching strategy of getting players to buy into the discipline of knowing that being tough means you have to 'take the guff and ya suffer' (Stompin'Toms lyrics) need to realize that:

1) Most teams don't have a PP success rate of more than 25% ,so 1 in 4 chances isn't a good rate of 'making them pay for their infractions',it really isn't the best equalizer. Especially if that player gets injured on the play! If other teams know(and they do) that the Leafs don't retaliate,it will be(is) open season on all Leaf players.

2)Relying on the questionable integrity of the refs. The Leafs are one of the fastest/skilled teams but are not getting the calls. So,the strategy of playing nice isn't working!Last in the League over the past 4 years or close to it. Maybe they(the refs) don't like Babs! 4 years and it still isn't working out! Maybe try some other strategy!

3) Intimidation is a real thing,it is used and dealt with in a variety of ways.Anyone who has played competitive physical sports knows this. Leaf management can ask their players to put up with the dirty play,the non calls,etc...let the refs/league do the policing,but they cannot expect the players to not be affected by the intimidation factor.It isn't a realistic expectation.Makes it difficult to feel like you're part of a team when you're not allowed to back each other up.

Anyway,I was almost buying into the attitude of a tough guy being a waste of a roster space or a liability,but after witnessing the first 10 games,I think it's very necessary to have one or two players who won't put up with the other team taking liberties. Even if it means taking a number for later,picking your spots or whatever,I think the young lads would appreciate someone to provide protection. Yes ,it would be great if that player(s) were a decent hockey playeras well,but I'm not sure the Leafs can afford not to have someone who can take care of business!
I agree with most of what you said but do you really believe that the players are being told not to back each other up and by who ?
 
Would Pastrnak be the player he is today if the Leafs drafted him instead of Boston? Or would he be a 60-70 pt Nylander? Both were close friends so I imagine must have had some similar personality traits. Nylander was always regarded as the better player from what I've read.
Impossible to say. Nylander is super skilled but lacks Pasternak’s drive. It would likely be easier to develop with a team like Boston. No entitlement and taught to play hard. Sissy’s need not apply.
 
That’s my point. It has to do with the size of the heart not size of the body. Matthews and Nylander are both big, strong men but have the heart of a lamb and no coaching will change that.
That’s where you are wrong, I believe coaching can change that, just need to find a way to get the message through their heads.
 
Twenty...Twenty games is your answer...but that isn't likely to happen.
Ok so say 20 games in and we're still holding our head above water with a .500 record, I still have a weird/bad feeling that Dubas is hoping and praying that things magically solve themselves so he doesn't need to make a high risk move.

I just got a bad feeling of how this season is going to transpire.
 
Nylander will never be the player Pasternak is. No heart.
I think it could be more situational, Pasta might be better at certain aspects,but not sure where this 'heart' comes in.I bet if Babs was Bruins coach,no way Bergy ,kissy face and Pasta get to be a line...gotta have a grinder with 2 top players..gotta spread out the scoring...can't have 3 guys who know how to score. Basically ,if Willy were subbed in for Pasta on that line ,he would likely have success as well. Maybe!
 
Pasta seems to be the more accurate shooter,so maybe he is shooting more.Also ,he is playing with 2 allstars,not just one. Babs don't roll like that! Gotta have a grinder ,3 allstars doesn't work for Babs.
Think that’s more to do with the style of play. for example, I can see a line up of JT-Matthews-Willie/Marner but I cant see Willie-Matthews-Marner on the same 5v5 line.
 
I think it could be more situational, Pasta might be better at certain aspects,but not sure where this 'heart' comes in.I bet if Babs was Bruins coach,no way Bergy ,kissy face and Pasta get to be a line...gotta have a grinder with 2 top players..gotta spread out the scoring...can't have 3 guys who know how to score. Basically ,if Willy were subbed in for Pasta on that line ,he would likely have success as well. Maybe!

oh lol 100% Babcock would run Boston's top-6 like that. He'd do something dumb like put Heinen with Marchand/Bergeron and Debrusk with Krejci/Pasta and make it an overall less effective top-6 while spouting his "not enough puck to go around" BS the whole time.
 
I agree with most of what you said but do you really believe that the players are being told not to back each other up and by who ?
Yes ,I do,because I'm not seeing it! Have you seen it in recent years? Not since Martin left,even then ,he didn't seem to be ready to rumble either,which made him redundant!

By who? ..Leaf Brass..as I said,they think it's smart hockey! Don't get the retaliation penalty ! That was the norm for years,no call on the initial infraction,but the' take-no-shyte'player would give it back and get 2 minutes for not being disciplined...Not retaliating became the smarter play...but not easy for some players to take....I think the pendulum has swung to far in the Leafs case!
 

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