Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose 3-1; lose series

[93LEAFS]

The team added an entirely new core which had next to nothing to do with Lou. You could throw me in there as GM and we'd have that kind of progression.

The team was very mentally weak. They lost key games and made the same mistakes with greater frequency but Lou had the guise of "the core is still growing and learning" on his side. Plus we were coming off of a decade of mediocrity or downright awfulness, so the standards were much lower. There is no guarantee that things would have progressed any further under him... You are just assuming that would be the case. Other than seeing the natural progression of Matthews/Marner/Nylander and other prospects (and adding a very mentally weak Andersen), he did practically nothing to improve our team. Then he saddled us with contracts that needed to be dumped once our stars were no longer on ELC's.

I won't discuss Dubas because this argument doesn't really need to involve him at all. Lou can suck independently of any suckage that surrounds Dubas. That being said, I think this article explains exactly why Lou's management style does not work anymore and should not be heralded as a "solid top down organizational structure".

Council Post: Why Authoritarian Leadership Simply Doesn't Work Anymore

They were in year 2. They are now in year 5. The only big loss was the Boston series. No one expected us to take down the Capitals.

Why are the Isles more successful than us despite losing Tavares? Lou has a very proven track record of success that follows him. I believe its due to organization building and having accountability from the top/down. Who are the two most successful managers in Sports over the past decade? Nick Saban and Bill Belichik who both run very authoritative organizations.

Andersen was the easy scapegoat (he didn't really deserve it for the Columbus loss), but we started Campbell this year and couldn't score until we pulled the goalie down 3-0 in game 7 after getting shut out in game 5. Both of these loses are way worse than anything that happened in the Lou era relative to expectation. There's no guarantee he would have done better. But, I would say what we have accomplished in the last 3 years is so far below expectations it's hard to think he would have done worse.

Lou was hard on players, but was fair. He commanded respect, which carries through the organizations he works for.

 

[Boxscore]

Did you actually watch the 92/93 team?

Of course I did, they were my favorite Leafs team of all-time. But, compared to some of the other teams with superior talent, they overachieved due to their incredible leadership, grit, work ethic and intangibles.

That's the exact blueprint for what wins in the playoffs - - a great coach, very good goaltender, a physical lockdown defense pair, a shutdown checking line, a dynamic scoring tandem and two of the toughest leaders you'll ever find.

I agree with you 100%. That's why that team was so beloved -- they had everything you want, even though their only "superstar" on paper was Dougie Gilmour. Clark, Andreychuk and Gartner weren't considered "superstars" and Potvin was overlooked compared to titans such as Roy, Belfour and Richter. On defense, we were rock solid, but didn't have one elite blue liner such as a Bourque, Chelios, Coffey, Leetch, MacInnis, Stevens, etc.

This year's version of the Leafs had very few of those characteristics.

Yes, and it's sad. That said, I don't think there's a team in the NHL these days who are built like our 92-93 team -- the league has just changed so much. Even the Bruins, Avs or Bolts don't have the type of grit, fire and intensity that team had.

 

[Donnie740]

We're 0-5 in our last 5 playoff series.

Thats a toxic culture to me. Something stinks.

Agreed on Marner for Jones. Would be a fantastic get, and would absolutely propel Rielly.

Do not think a Freddy/Jack Campbell gets it done next year though. This team needs a stud who can handle the pressure at all costs

Jack played well. But he didn't win. Not blaming him... But if he stole this series we would be saying just that.

Dubas made a lot of changes last year to get us "Playoff Ready" and went all in this trade deadline. It didn't work, yet again.

Thats why I want change. Who's accountable?

Let's be honest - - there's not a chance in hell Fred will be back with the Leafs next year. And every Leaf fan should be rejoicing that he's gone.

Goaltending is definitely not the reason Toronto lost this series. Campbell played WAY better than Fred ever did. And that $5M in cap space is desperately needed.

Having a starting goalie at only $1.6M is a huge advantage.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

You do realize that Lou's management style has resulted in the Islanders going deeper in the playoff than they have in decades since he's been there right? lol

And Lou is far from an Authoritarian. Listen to what Burke has said about him. Listen to what his players in NJ said about him. Lou is beloved by many, and it's not because he's some power-hungry tyrant.

'I can already hear some old-timers groaning as they read this. "Why can't things stay like they were! My style of leadership worked before, why not now? Younger employees are entitled and spoiled. They have to pay their dues like I did and comply with what I want them to do."'

Does that not reflect how Lou managed in this organization? Veterans and old-school people who share that same sentiment definitely love it, which is why they give him a ton of praise. Young guys, which is what the NHL is trending towards, won't and it is not surprising that he has a reputation of pushing young players out in the Cap Era.

 

[ANDI P IS CUTE]

Normally I'd post some long angry rant here, but instead, I only have one thing to say after that: **** this entire franchise

Actually one more note: If they trade Nylander I'm done

umm, you mean marner.

 

[ANDI P IS CUTE]

Mitch Marner = The new Jake Gardiner

except gardiner didnt make 11 million and he actually scored.

 

[Donnie740]

Yes, and it's sad. That said, I don't think there's a team in the NHL these days who are built like our 92-93 team -- the league has just changed so much. Even the Bruins, Avs or Bolts don't have the type of grit, fire and intensity that team had.

Look at what Vegas did in 2018. A first year expansion team going all the way to the finals would have been an unfathomable impossibility in 92/93.

They certainly didn't have any superstars on that team.

 

[Nylanderthal]

umm, you mean marner.

Nope, marner HAS to go, Nylander proved himself invaluable this playoffs being the only big ticket guy to show up even with the built in excuse of losing his running mate and having his line mates put in a blender all series. Marner had played himself out of town IMO.

 

[ANDI P IS CUTE]

its truly unbelieveable how soft these overpaid contracts played, esp. Marner. Shanahans fault for hiring dubas. He played a total 180 from the team he has assembled here. Marner literally needs to go TODAY. A coward, soft, whiney lazy dumb excuse. He and his dad held TML hostage too. You cant make this stuff up.

 

[KingJoffrey]

This team looks like their GM.

Entitled, smug, sjw and weak.

You don't win when you hire an social justice warrior to lead the your hockey club.

Shanahan needs to go and so his loved pal Dubler Dubas.

 

[ANDI P IS CUTE]

Nope, marner HAS to go, Nylander proved himself invaluable this playoffs being the only big ticket guy to show up even with the built in excuse of losing his running mate and having his line mates put in a blender all series. Marner had played himself out of town IMO.

wrong guy bud, marner needs to go- i was agreeing with you.

 

[ANDI P IS CUTE]

0-8 in deciding games. Unacceptable for ANY franchise in ANY sport, let alone original 6 and hockey capital of the universe.

 

[ANDI P IS CUTE]

The only other team to not win a playoff series in the salary cap era is Florida...old tweet but still true:

didnt know florida was in canada?

 

[Donnie740]

'I can already hear some old-timers groaning as they read this. "Why can't things stay like they were! My style of leadership worked before, why not now? Younger employees are entitled and spoiled. They have to pay their dues like I did and comply with what I want them to do."'

Does that not reflect how Lou managed in this organization? Veterans and old-school people who share that same sentiment definitely love it, which is why they give him a ton of praise. Young guys, which is what the NHL is trending towards, won't and it is not surprising that he has a reputation of pushing young players out in the Cap Era.

Hockey's a physical, team-oriented game, my friend - - ESPECIALLY in the playoffs. Unless you're talking about women's hockey?

You need a good system with buy-in from everyone and a willingness to make the physical sacrifices. That's what won 25 years ago, that's what still wins today. Pretty sure that's what will win 25 years from now.

Toronto didn't have it, and that's why they're one-and-done. Again.

 

[Nylanderthal]

wrong guy bud, marner needs to go- i was agreeing with you.

Re-read the post you were replying to, the poster said they’re done with the team if they’re trade Willy.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

They were in year 2. They are now in year 5. The only big loss was the Boston series. No one expected us to take down the Capitals.

Why are the Isles more successful than us despite losing Tavares? Lou has a very proven track record of success that follows him. I believe its due to organization building and having accountability from the top/down. Who are the two most successful managers in Sports over the past decade? Nick Saban and Bill Belichik who both run very authoritative organizations.

Andersen was the easy scapegoat (he didn't really deserve it for the Columbus loss), but we started Campbell this year and couldn't score until we pulled the goalie down 3-0 in game 7 after getting shut out in game 5. Both of these loses are way worse than anything that happened in the Lou era relative to expectation. There's no guarantee he would have done better. But, I would say what we have accomplished in the last 3 years is so far below expectations it's hard to think he would have done worse.

Lou was hard on players, but was fair. He commanded respect, which carries through the organizations he works for.

Belichick whose team sucked as soon as Brady left and Saban who runs in a non-parity system that allows him and a select other few top programs to dominate because he has more resources than everyone else? Football is a lot different than hockey, especially NCAA Football.

Both of those guys are coaches on top of managers too... I mean if we are praising Trotz, then I agree. He is a huge part why the Islanders have had success, and they are probably not even be a playoff team without him. Considering a nice bulk of their roster is the same as when they were not a playoff team, save Barzal instead of Tavares, he is a huge part of their success.

All I am going to say is that if you want a successful organization these days, players have to find accountability on their own. If the manager forces it, that will only make things worse and lead to players checking out or demanding out (and that applies to everyone, not just ones you think are entitled or weak). If they support their players, then you can have an organization which actually wins things. A manager has to earn their respect just like an employee has to earn respect. At least if they want to be a successful manager.

 

[Welsh Maple Leaf]

didnt know florida was in canada?

Pretty obvious what he’s saying.

 

[Thread The Needle]

Jeez. Didn't watch many games this year (had better and more important things to do), so I feel like I lucked out. I guess the team isn't getting much attention from me next season either. Sorry so many of you had to deal with this shitshow again

 

[Edenjung]

Anybody need a hug?

 

[ANDI P IS CUTE]

I would not give up on Marner and Matthews yet.

The flat cap will be hard to manage again.

This team needs a “rebuild” of the depth.

Either way, I am happy I prepared myself for a let down tonight.

Stay safe and avoid the main boards everyone

are you nuts? he was the biggest problem by a mile!

 

[Subway Schenn]

Sad, so glad that I decided to lose the emotional attachment after Game 6... It hurts much less than in previous years.

The boys choked it away, of course - 0 excuses, Montreal played well but big changes are needed. To the core. It's going to get toxic here over the next couple months.... and not sure how motivated I will be to be fully invested in the regular season next year. It doesn't matter. When it counted we lost 3 straight to a team with 18 less points in a 56 game schedule. I couldn't help feel bad for them as they skated off the ice, then I remembered that I need to think of myself first.... It's tragic that I care more than many of our players. The no shows were pathetic.

Dubas & co. are going to have their work cut out for themselves this summer. They probably have one more shot at getting it right - they're pressed into a corner with the roster composition (their doing) so will be interesting to see how they approach things. If it were up to me I'd consider trading Mitch. Can't believe its come to this.

 

[ZEBROA]

Leafs loose and Sweden are out of the Wordchampionship . The mondayest Monday in ages.

 

[93LEAFS]

Belichick whose team sucked as soon as Brady left and Saban who runs in a non-parity system that allows him and a select other few top programs to dominate because he has more resources than everyone else? Football is a lot different than hockey, especially NCAA Football.

Both of those guys are coaches on top of managers too... I mean if we are praising Trotz, then I agree. He is a huge part why the Islanders have had success, and they are probably not even be a playoff team without him. Considering a nice bulk of their roster is the same as when they were not a playoff team, save Barzal instead of Tavares, he is a huge part of their success.

All I am going to say is that if you want a successful organization these days, players have to find accountability on their own. If the manager forces it, that will only make things worse and lead to players checking out or demanding out (and that applies to everyone, not just ones you think are entitled or weak). If they support their players, then you can have an organization which actually wins things. A manager has to earn their respect just like an employee has to earn respect. At least if they want to be a successful manager.

There is a large gap between being hard/fair and a tyrant. I think Lou falls into the hard but fair territory like Torts does. Brady left and the team was in caphell and needed to replace a player at the most important position (with a ton of opt-outs) and didn't even become a bottom 10 team in the league. If you are chalking up Belichick's success to Brady, I'd say you are mis-reading New Englands 20 years of dominance.

You need someone who can guide them to accountability from the top of the organization down. Lou hired Trotz, so doesn't he get credit for that? There is a large gap between being a tyrant and trying to be buddy/buddy with everyone. And, the past 3 years we have underachieved dramatically. We just lost as heavy favorites and the year prior couldn't make the final 16. We scored one goal in the past to lose and you are out games.

Lou had the respect of the team. I think that much is clear. Now, Babcock lost it by playing mind-games, but Lou doesn't seem like the mind-game type. He sets firm policies and standards that people are expected to live up to, and the only person I've heard complain about it is Bourn and people who were close to Dubas. Dubas's being friendly and close to the players hasn't accomplished anything more than Lou did with a younger team.

Also, tons of successful organizations work their employees to death with unattainable standards. The top talent will still go to those places (look at top law firms, hedge funds or investment banks).

 

[Donnie740]

Sad, so glad that I decided to lose the emotional attachment after Game 6... It hurts much less than in previous years.

The boys choked it away, of course - 0 excuses, Montreal played well but big changes are needed. To the core. It's going to get toxic here over the next couple months.... and not sure how motivated I will be to be fully invested in the regular season next year. It doesn't matter. When it counted we lost 3 straight to a team with 18 less points in a 56 game schedule. I couldn't help feel bad for them as they skated off the ice, then I remembered that I need to think of myself first.... It's tragic that I care more than many of our players. The no shows were pathetic.

Dubas & co. are going to have their work cut out for themselves this summer. They probably have one more shot at getting it right - they're pressed into a corner with the roster composition (their doing) so will be interesting to see how they approach things. If it were up to me I'd consider trading Mitch. Can't believe its come to this.

I'm not the least bit upset about this loss. If anything, I'm actually happy for it. Because it increases the possibility that the coach and GM will be fired.

Let's be honest - - even if they managed to get past a bad Montreal team the Leafs didn't have a hope in hell of beating Boston, Tampa or Colorado this year. And they won't have any chance next year either as long as this coach and GM are still in place with their useless but analytically pleasing "puck control" system.

 

[Subway Schenn]

But the performances of 34 and 16 were inexcusable. Let's be honest, they were $22 million no shows, and that's unacceptable. If they want all the praise for leading the team in scoring and winning the Rocket Richard, they need to shoulder the blame when they score a combined 1 goal in a huge 7-game series. This loss falls directly on their shoulders, followed by Keefe.

100%. No shows are tough to excuse, especially when they come from your best two players. Mitch was visibly out of place and it was brutal to see again.