Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose 3-1; lose series

[hfman]

Good luck everyone, decided to post here for the first time in a while and it turns out team isn't built for anything more than a nice regular season.

Might be back for the playoffs next year but tbh I think it might be better for me to deal with other things than pay attention to this team.

Will always be a fan i just can't spend time to watch a gong show anymore, its been a cool 13 years of hardcore fandom but as a grown man you have to realize a hopeless scenario and get out of it.

as grown men we realise this is nothing more than entertainment, watching athletes play a game while making hundreds of millions of dollars collectively, all while looking out for their best financial interests first and foremost. Winning comes second. The players know it and show it, why don't the fans?

 

[93LEAFS]

I don't disagree that Shanahan is worthy of critiques here.

I think the way he went about building the front office in retrospect was a bit wonky. Hiring Babcock to that contract before picking a long term GM was definitely a mistake. And obviously the group assembled early on wasn't going to last long either

And no disagreement that Dubas' tenure has disappointed either. But I find the suggestion that "Lou would have done so much better" to be based more on faith than any sort of tangible evidence.

What might become more true as time goes on is Shanahan should have perhaps looked to the outside when considering his choices

In retrospect the building plan made no sense. Coach before the GM, try the duel GM thing and then when the two hate each other (plus the coach hates the protege GM) after their first draft together bring in the referee in Lou. And, then to suddenly re-tool it three years in by switching out Lou made less. I'm not saying Lou is perfect, but I have more faith that he would have avoided the situation we currently find ourselves in. He probably would have done some dumb stuff I disagree with (like he did when he was here). But, I never felt Dubas was ready for the job, and he still seems overwhelmed 3 years in. And, lets not kid ourselves, Dubas forced the issue when he tried to move laterally to an AGM job with Colorado, and Shanny made promises to keep him.

While, I said at the time we should look at outside choices, I don't think they viewed that as an option. Lou really hadn't done anything yet that was worthy of pink slipping him, and no respected GM was going to take the job to further groom Dubas (plus he was angling for the top job).

 

[93LEAFS]

I don't think so, I felt way worse after the blown 4-1 lead to Boston in game 7. The way Boston fans made fun of us and made fun of Kessel, for us to almost knock them off their high horse as an underdog and then fail in spectacular fashion was gut wrenching to me.

Honestly this season is another asterisk to me. No fans, dumb divisions, doesn't even feel like a real season to me. Of course I want my Leafs to win a cup badly but I can't help but think I would be kinda less ecstatic if they won their first cup in 50+ years in a season like this. So that also makes this loss feel less painful for me.

We had no legitimate expectations for that team. We knew it was flawed. This is way more crushing as it seems their is no way out of it and our core is flawed. After all the terrible teams we went through to build this core.

 

[Gabriel426]

Yeah I dunno. There's certainly an issue though. And it's been here long before Matthews and Marner were here. Because the results were the same then as they are now, even with different rosters.

Depends on how players think. Winning the series might be a big "F-you" to the media, but losing it might also be a "ok, we'll play your game" type thing. I personally think the latter is more effective in the players giving the middle finger to the media and all the negative fans

I just have a hard time believing this Leafs team really tried to win this. You don't go up 3-1 and then blatantly hide for the rest of the series. What would be the reason. Effort is effort, you can see when someone is at least trying. But we all saw that they stopped trying, literally overnight. And when you stop trying, it's intentional. You don't 'accidentally' or 'unfortunately' stop trying. If you stop trying, it's always, always on purpose. For whatever reason.

I agree there is something about this team that isn’t right. But won’t go as far as not trying bc they came back and force OT twice and some of the goals were really really bad individual mistakes.
AM and MM didn’t show up which led to people pointing at guys like Jumbo, Simmonds and even Soup for having bad series. However these guys are depth players, no contenders ever won with role and depth players, they win with their Stars and depth players will have their moments here and there. Some of those moments are often OT goals.

 

[The Promised Land]

.

 

[Boxscore]

But I find the suggestion that "Lou would have done so much better" to be based more on faith (and what ifs) than any sort of tangible evidence

Really? I mean, I guess I know what you're saying, but Lou did build a juggernaut in NJ that was renowned for it's defensive play, work ethic, compete level and culture. He truly turned the Devils from a laughing stock into a world-class, Cup-winning organization. What often gets overlooked on those "trapping" NJ clubs was their incredible culture -- the Devils had an identity -- and Lou was the architect.

After the Leafs, he immediately goes to a struggling Islanders organization (who just saw Tavares leave for nothing) and he manages to bring in, perhaps, the best coach in the world. Immediately, he leads the Isles to their best two seasons in recent history, and he convinces their top player (Barzal) to give him a hometown discount, signing a multiple year deal for $7 million. This was right after Philly paid Kevin Hayes $7.5 million lol. Under two years of Lou so far, the Islanders made it to the Final 4 last year and are tied 1-1 with Boston in the 2nd round this year. Look at their roster on paper compared to ours. Lou is a genius when it comes to culture.

I think the above is plenty of tangible evidence -- it's real life NHL results -- unlike anything Dubas can claim... or Shanny as an executive for that matter.

IMO the biggest problem with Lou in Toronto is that Shanny and Dubas were always involved in what he wanted to do, and that never works.

 

[hfman]

We had no legitimate expectations for that team. We knew it was flawed. This is way more crushing as it seems their is no way out of it and our core is flawed. After all the terrible teams we went through to build this core.

there IS no way out of it

not until someone identifies what the inherent problem is with this franchise, because no matter the year nor the roster, the results are always the same (blown game 7s, blown series etc)

 

[Amadeus]

Anger is what pretty much sums it up. Our PP was absolutely terrible and it's unacceptable how bad it was with the talent we have. I also think it's time to make changes and shake this up. Our team is soft like butter. I'm also sick and tired of this mentality we've developed that every play needs to pretty instead of simple. Mitch is fully to blame because of the gaffs he made trying to make the cute plays versus keeping it simple.

Also, I'm sorry but Simmonds and Thornton brought absolutely nothing to the table. Mikheyev brought nothing. Engvall brought nothing. Foligno brought absolutely nothing.

As much as Mitch and Auston didn't produce, no one else except Spezza and Nylander brought any offense.

Hate to say it but you can't fix 'mentally soft'.

 

[djdev]

BABCOCK…

YOU WERE RIGHT.

Marner, Keefe need to go.

Keep Nylander, Kerfoot, Hyman, Muzzin, Brodie, JT.

Matthews… only if there is no return for a Mackinnon or Mcdavid type of player.

the rest of the team can be dealt.

the only mackinnon and mcdavid "type players" are mackinnon and mcdavid...lol

 

[yubbers]

And yet he'll see success you could only dream of

Sorry to break it to ya..but tonight was the opposite of success.

 

[Gabriel426]

Which players in the post-2016 rebuild era doing better in other places are we talking about?

Phil for a few seasons. Bozak won a Cup. Kadri might win a Cup. Leo and Martin are actually contributing instead of being in the press box or playing like crap. Maybe not so much Leo this season. Brown is good.

 

[Menzinger]

Really? I mean, I guess I know what you're saying, but Lou did build a juggernaut in NJ that was renowned for it's defensive play, work ethic, compete level and culture. He truly turned the Devils from a laughing stock into a world-class, Cup-winning organization. What often gets overlooked on those "trapping" NJ clubs was their incredible culture -- the Devils had an identity -- and Lou was the architect.

After the Leafs, he immediately goes to a struggling Islanders organization (who just saw Tavares leave for nothing) and he manages to bring in, perhaps, the best coach in the world. Immediately, he leads the Isles to their best two seasons in recent history, and he convinces their top player (Barzal) to give him a hometown discount, signing a multiple year deal for $7 million. This was right after Philly paid Kevin Hayes $7.5 million lol. Under two years of Lou so far, the Islanders made it to the Final 4 last year and are tied 1-1 with Boston in the 2nd round this year. Look at their roster on paper compared to ours. Lou is a genius when it comes to culture.

I think the above is plenty of tangible evidence -- it's real life NHL results -- unlike anything Dubas can claim... or Shanny as an executive for that matter.

IMO the biggest problem with Lou in Toronto is that Shanny and Dubas were always involved in what he wanted to do, and that never works.

Lou had had an great career. But what he did twenty years ago with New Jersey (in a pre salary cap era NHL) doesn't have any barring on the time with the Leafs.

What matters to the Leafs is the work he actually did here - his ufa, rfa signings and his drafts ect. And here some of it was good, some of it was pretty bad.

Barzal signed a short term bridge deal, so I'm not sure I'd call that a discount (he has arbitration rights at the end of it) and he gifted the Avalanche his other high level rfa Toews for a couple of picks in a trade. That said, hes been for the most part a good fit for the Islander's, but that's not the same thing as being a good fit for the Leafs. If he had made nothing but great moves while he was the Leafs GM, hed still have the job.

 

[Boxscore]

there IS no way out of it

not until someone identifies what the inherent problem is with this franchise, because no matter the year nor the roster, the results are always the same (blown game 7s, blown series etc)

I don't think it is that complicated lol. Even going back to the beloved 1992-93 season, we just haven't been good enough. To their credit, the Gilmour-Clark teams overachieved by a large margin. Then Mats came and the Leafs never truly surrounded him with a top-notch supporting cast. Throughout his tenure, the Leafs were never close to good enough on paper or the ice. Bringing in Cujo was a boost but the team was still never truly built to compete with the top clubs those years.

The Burke years were bitter sweet. I loved Burkie but I think some of his takes were outdated and he was too much of a "go big or go home guy" for his own good. Kessel was Kessel, no surprise. Phanuef never lived up to expectations. Once again, we just never had enough talent.

This team is a different beast altogether -- they ooze talent but lack the balance (due to cap mismanagement) and the rest of the ingredients needed to win when it matters. This is the best core we've had in decades, and it's not even close. But the core needs to be rebalanced a bit -- not blown to smithereens.

 

[Goomba]

Sorry to break it to ya..but tonight was the opposite of success.

Hes crying into his millions

 

[Superstar]

It's alright peeps, they'll change the 2 assistant coaches again and be completely ready for the new season

Maybe hire a new person to be the mascot too...

 

[Menzinger]

In retrospect the building plan made no sense. Coach before the GM, try the duel GM thing and then when the two hate each other (plus the coach hates the protege GM) after their first draft together bring in the referee in Lou. And, then to suddenly re-tool it three years in by switching out Lou made less. I'm not saying Lou is perfect, but I have more faith that he would have avoided the situation we currently find ourselves in. He probably would have done some dumb stuff I disagree with (like he did when he was here). But, I never felt Dubas was ready for the job, and he still seems overwhelmed 3 years in. And, lets not kid ourselves, Dubas forced the issue when he tried to move laterally to an AGM job with Colorado, and Shanny made promises to keep him.

While, I said at the time we should look at outside choices, I don't think they viewed that as an option. Lou really hadn't done anything yet that was worthy of pink slipping him, and no respected GM was going to take the job to further groom Dubas (plus he was angling for the top job).

I also would agree Lou didn't do anything worthy of being fired while Leafs GM. But I personally didn't want a stop gap in the role handling the major signings that were going to happen.

If Shanny had wanted Lou for that, he should have been the guy he wanted to stick around for a few years.

Regardless it'll be interesting to see.what gossip/tid bits come.to light in the coming heard as people eventually start talking more to journalists

 

[Rokker]

You can't blow it up. You make a couple of strategic moves that rebalance the club and make us harder to play against in a playoff series.

You keep Matthews forever, as long as he wants to stay here, or as long as the culture doesn't become toxic.

Marner should be traded for an extended Seth Jones -- I cannot stress this enough. But Marner can only be traded for a strategic piece. As frustrated as we are, you do not trade Marner just to make a statement.

We need a legit #1 goalie long-term. However, an Andersen-Campbell tandem should be good enough if the other issues are addressed.

Add Seth Jones and we'll see the best Rielly has to offer. He's always been a #2, forced to punch above his weight class. With Jones to run the PP and log 24 minutes a night, Rielly becomes one of the top #2 defensemen in the world. It's not Rielly's fault that he's been miscast and overused.

Shanny and Dubas are going nowhere, unfortunately.

We're 0-5 in our last 5 playoff series.

Thats a toxic culture to me. Something stinks.

Agreed on Marner for Jones. Would be a fantastic get, and would absolutely propel Rielly.

Do not think a Freddy/Jack Campbell gets it done next year though. This team needs a stud who can handle the pressure at all costs

Jack played well. But he didn't win. Not blaming him... But if he stole this series we would be saying just that.

Dubas made a lot of changes last year to get us "Playoff Ready" and went all in this trade deadline. It didn't work, yet again.

Thats why I want change. Who's accountable?

 

[Gabriel426]

Lou had had an great career. But what he did twenty years ago with New Jersey (in a pre salary cap era NHL) doesn't have any barring on the time with the Leafs.

What matters to the Leafs is the work he actually did here - his ufa, rfa signings and his drafts ect. And here some of it was good, some of it was pretty bad.

Barazal signed a short term bridge deal, so I'm not sure I'd call that a discount (he has arbitration rights at the end of it) and he gifted the Avalanche his other high level rfa Toews for a couple of picks in a trade. That said, hes been for the most part a good fit for the Islander's, but that's not the same thing as being a good fit for the Leafs. If he had made nothing but great moves while he was the Leafs GM, hed still have the job.

Agree with you. There is no point comparing what Lou had done with the Islanders Vs Dubas with the Leafs. Or what would Lou do with the Leafs if he stayed.
Maybe in some strange universe, Shanny let Dubas to be GM with the Avs(Dubas was rumoured to be shortlisted but Shanny blocked it). Dubas traded Mack to Leafs for JVR in order to make room to sign JT. Lou never signed JT and renewed Leo but not Bozak. Willie never held out and signed for 6mil. Both AM signed for 11 for 8 yrs and Marner signed for 6.5mil for 5 years. Also managed to get Lehner for backup. The top 9 for the Leafs would be Hyman/AM/Willie, Marleau/Mack/Brown, Leo/Kadri/Marner while 4th line was AJ/Goat/Kap. Dcore of Reilly/Hanisey, Muzz/Zai and Dermott and Bogo.

Andersen/Lehner

Yet the Leafs still could not past the 1st round the next few years. Lol

 

[Boxscore]

That said, hes been for the most part a good fit for the Islander's, but that's not the same thing as being a good fit for the Leafs. If he had made nothing but great moves while he was the Leafs GM, hed still have the job.

I feel you, but I think it's a tad unfair.

1. We're comparing apples to oranges. When we brought Lou in it was to architect a long-term rebuild, not an "add some missing pieces" Cup run. I think Lou had a vision that didn't completely jive with the likes of Shanahan and Dubas. I can't stress this enough -- there should only be one cook in the kitchen and we had 5 big personalities competing for share of voice -- Lou, Shanny, Dubas, Babcock and Hunter. That's five personalities with differences of opinion on how things should be built and run. Who sided with who in this power struggle? We'll never truly know, but it's clear that Shanny and Dubas won. Needless to say, I don't think Lou ever had the chance to fully put his stamp on the Leafs.

2. The Islanders are in a different place than the Leafs were. They were bleeding money and looking for a new arena. Lou was brought in to make immediate improvements and he's done his job extremely well. The proof is in the pudding -- the Islanders best back-to-back seasons in recent history. Lou's mark on the team cannot be disputed. I think if the Leafs ownership gave Lou a task and the time needed to complete it, we would have been fine. But they didn't. Shanny and Dubas were always chiming in and influencing decisions. And we know Shanny always considered Dubas his "golden boy."

 

[yubbers]

Hes crying into his millions

But he failed at his craft. He's just rich.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

The team didn't seem mentally weak. He seemed to create a much better culture of accountability. The team progressed the last 2 years under Lou. We've been stagnant or regressed the previous 3 under Dubas.

The teams we had under Lou, except maybe the 2017/18 team we didn't expect to go far. We hoped to beat the Bruins but were still underdogs. These past 2 years we've lost in our first round (one a play-in) as heavy favorites. The team strikes me as mentally weak. They have no showed in 3 straight series in the deciding game. Where is the progression? What has Dubas done in 3 years to have any faith in how this organization is run? He's traded the Leafs first 3 years in a row, with no results to show for it.

Lou's reputation is from building solid top down organizational structures.

The team added an entirely new core which had next to nothing to do with Lou. You could throw me in there as GM and we'd have that kind of progression.

The team was very mentally weak. They lost key games and made the same mistakes with greater frequency but Lou had the guise of "the core is still growing and learning" on his side. Plus we were coming off of a decade of mediocrity or downright awfulness, so the standards were much lower. There is no guarantee that things would have progressed any further under him... You are just assuming that would be the case. Other than seeing the natural progression of Matthews/Marner/Nylander and other prospects (and adding a very mentally weak Andersen), he did practically nothing to improve our team. Then he saddled us with contracts that needed to be dumped once our stars were no longer on ELC's.

I won't discuss Dubas because this argument doesn't really need to involve him at all. Lou can suck independently of any suckage that surrounds Dubas. That being said, I think this article explains exactly why Lou's management style does not work anymore and should not be heralded as a "solid top down organizational structure".

Council Post: Why Authoritarian Leadership Simply Doesn't Work Anymore

 

[Boxscore]

We're 0-5 in our last 5 playoff series.

Thats a toxic culture to me. Something stinks.

Agreed on Marner for Jones. Would be a fantastic get, and would absolutely propel Rielly.

Do not think a Freddy/Jack Campbell gets it done next year though. This team needs a stud who can handle the pressure at all costs

Jack played well. But he didn't win. Not blaming him... But if he stole this series we would be saying just that.

Dubas made a lot of changes last year to get us "Playoff Ready" and went all in this trade deadline. It didn't work, yet again.

Thats why I want change. Who's accountable?

The playoff results are indisputable and unacceptable. I agree with you. However, I don't think the culture is toxic. I think the entire organization lacks experience and leadership, starting at the top. Shanny himself is a new executive. Dubas and Keefe had zero NHL experience. The young core lacked experience and never accomplished anything in the NHL. Even Tavares -- while a great player -- never won squat in the NHL.

Because of that, Dubas was forced to bring in multiple ex-captains and leaders. The problem -- due to being cap-strapped, the only players he could afford were well past their prime and could only pay dividends in the locker room, not so much on the ice.

The only thing that stinks is the team's reluctance to rebalance the core. That's why a Marner for Jones is crucial.

I agree with you about the goalies, but legit #1's don't grow on trees and they're inconsistent at best. I mean, look at Vegas -- one year Fleury is great, then then he struggles and they bring in Lehner. Then they want to trade Fleury. Then Lehner struggles and they go back to Fleury and he's great again. Look at Carter Hart in Philly - went from hero to zero in 12 months. Unless you're a Vasilevskiy, Helle or Price, you are a wild card. I don't think a platoon of Andersen-Campbell will "win us a Cup" but they also won't "lose us a Cup" if everything else is going right. The reality is, if Matthews and Marner combined for 4 goals instead of 1, we're likely playing Winnipeg on Wed.

Yes, I agree with you on Dubas and his "playoff ready" moves -- and yes, we fell short again.

I want changes too but I don't want scorched earth. Ultimately, Shanny is the most accountable. But so is Dubas and the young core.

 

[Boxscore]

I think this article explains exactly why Lou's management style does not work anymore and should not be heralded as a "solid top down organizational structure".

Council Post: Why Authoritarian Leadership Simply Doesn't Work Anymore

You do realize that Lou's management style has resulted in the Islanders going deeper in the playoff than they have in decades since he's been there right? lol

And Lou is far from an Authoritarian. Listen to what Burke has said about him. Listen to what his players in NJ said about him. Lou is beloved by many, and it's not because he's some power-hungry tyrant.

 

[Nylanderthal]

 

[Donnie740]

Even going back to the beloved 1992-93 season, we just haven't been good enough. To their credit, the Gilmour-Clark teams overachieved by a large margin.

Did you actually watch the 92/93 team?

That's the exact blueprint for what wins in the playoffs - - a great coach, very good goaltender, a physical lockdown defense pair, a shutdown checking line, a dynamic scoring tandem and two of the toughest leaders you'll ever find.

This year's version of the Leafs had very few of those characteristics.