I'd say its regressing when you are losing on home-ice, and not even making the final 16 in 2019/20 absolutely was regression. We've lost two series in a row where we entered as the heavy favorite.
Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose 3-1; lose series
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Maplebeasts
I See Demons!!!!!
Did we though? Or did Lou leave before the bad contracts he was handing out and bad drafting under him started to impact the team? This is not a defense of Dubas because I think he should be fired, but I had ZERO faith that Lou was going to turn us into a winner. The team then didn't get any further than it does now.
Is the culture/chemistry due to MGT or players or fans or just the City(medias) or all of the above.
If it is the fans and the City, then there is no fixing it.
There is only two years in the Shannaplan where the team actually played like the had heart. The tank year with all the journey men and vets and AM first year. Maybe AM second year too.
I really think is the players and the MGT.
When AM first broke into the league, Kadri, Hyman, Brown, Leo, Martin all play solid while Bozak and JVR might coast here and there but they actually knew how to play in the playoffs.
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Man, I feel your frustration.
I think part of the power struggle between Lou and Dubas/Shanny was that Lou would not have touched Tavares on the open market -- so I agree with you -- although I have no proof of that. I don't think Lou touches Tavares, not because JT isn't a great player, but because committing $11+ million to an outside UFA destroys any chance of getting your young, homegrown core to agree to give you a "hometown discount."
I think Lou knew this and Shanny was in denial. I remember when the Leafs and Nylander were at a stalemate -- Shanny cracked and on TV said, "we signed Tavares, so some of our younger players are going to have to take a little less to play for the Toronto Maple Leafs." I couldn't believe it. It's like Shanny and Dubas completely overplayed their hand. In my gut, I think Lou knew the whole time how this was going to play out. Rule #1: you don't play on the open market until you have your own players locked up long-term. This is the way Pittsburgh, Chicago, Tampa, Boston, Washington and Colorado did it.
I 100% believe that Lou knew this. But Shanny and Dubas wanted to make the big splash, which had a trickle down effect.
Well, unfortunately, I think you are going to be waiting for a while. The Leafs ownership chose Shanny and Dubas over Lou, Babcock and Hunter. If they fire them now, the entire house of cards will collapse.
As for Dubas -- it's a double-edged sword. Because, quite honestly, I've never been a fan of his, but I thought this was the best season he had as a GM. He knew this team lacked grit, leadership and character, so he loaded up on it and spent very little money doing so. I thought his moves this year were calculated and wise. I thought the Foligno trade was a very good one too, it's just a shame he was injured and we didn't advance to reap the rewards from it.
This offseason is a make or break for Dubas in my book. I think he should replace the coach and make a blockbuster trade to upgrade the defense. If he does that, it's hard to argue with his actions. If he doesn't, I think it's clear he still doesn't get it.
Well, this thread is a shit show, with everyone thinking that their scapegoat is the reason this team fell apart. Not that I fault any of you for venting -- by all means, vent on.
I have my own theories about the problem -- namely, that we lost offensive depth in the off-season because of an unexpectedly flat cap and the TJ Brodie acquisition to (successfully) round out our defence. That left us as a one-line team when Tavares went down, which should have been fine, because that line had two elite scorers on it. Except those scorers didn't show, leaving us as a zero-line team with only a few individuals (Willie and Spezza) able to create offence individually.
Therefore the bulk of the blame has to fall on Matthews and Marner, IMHO. But there is plenty to go around. Dubas' trade for Foligno is going to go down as one of the worst in recent Leafs history. Keefe's inability to fix the PP, dropping Dermott for Sandin, and refusal to put Nylander in Marner's spot are just some of his questionable decisions. Engvall and Hyman didn't bring the jump they are capable of. Thornton was selfish to continue hogging a spot in the lineup despite being trash (if he was okay with sitting, he probably sits, no?). Simmonds disappeared after the first few games. Guys like Dermott, Sandin, and Galchenyuk made game-losing mistakes, although at least they seemed to put in an effort.
I honestly don't know what the solution is and I think emotions are too raw right now to make any sound judgment on what's next. Whatever trades are made actually need to make this team better -- a tall task if a player the calibre of Marner or Nylander are the ones heading out.
I have my own theories about the problem -- namely, that we lost offensive depth in the off-season because of an unexpectedly flat cap and the TJ Brodie acquisition to (successfully) round out our defence. That left us as a one-line team when Tavares went down, which should have been fine, because that line had two elite scorers on it. Except those scorers didn't show, leaving us as a zero-line team with only a few individuals (Willie and Spezza) able to create offence individually.
Therefore the bulk of the blame has to fall on Matthews and Marner, IMHO. But there is plenty to go around. Dubas' trade for Foligno is going to go down as one of the worst in recent Leafs history. Keefe's inability to fix the PP, dropping Dermott for Sandin, and refusal to put Nylander in Marner's spot are just some of his questionable decisions. Engvall and Hyman didn't bring the jump they are capable of. Thornton was selfish to continue hogging a spot in the lineup despite being trash (if he was okay with sitting, he probably sits, no?). Simmonds disappeared after the first few games. Guys like Dermott, Sandin, and Galchenyuk made game-losing mistakes, although at least they seemed to put in an effort.
I honestly don't know what the solution is and I think emotions are too raw right now to make any sound judgment on what's next. Whatever trades are made actually need to make this team better -- a tall task if a player the calibre of Marner or Nylander are the ones heading out.
Martin Skoula
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I don't know that the facial hair rule really did that much, we were still soft and selfish under his culture. The team didn't finish their checks or sacrifice the body any more than they do now.
In 2 and a half off seasons he managed to give Zaitsev and Marleau almost 55 million dollars with full NMCs, his trades and FA signings were a net negative in his time here. Say what you want about Dubas and the RFA negotiations, but he brought in more quality top-4 D-men every single season than Lou did in his entire tenure despite having way more cap space and way more futures to trade.
How were we the heavy favourite last year? Weren't we separated by like 1 point in the standings?
Lou's teams have historically played better than the sum of their parts. Is that his eye for how players fit? Him knowing who the right coach is? Was he good in the UFA market? No. But, I think if he stayed even if his deals eventually crippled us from winning the cup, I think we'd have at least a series or two win to our name.
My moment from this one is going to be the challenge in game 6. That was dumb
Maplebeasts
I See Demons!!!!!
He gets credit for luring Trotz over. That's all in my book though. As far as constructing a roster though he hasn't done anything noteworthy with the Isles. All the pieces they have were already in place when he got there minus Trotz. The only difference is he lost JT.
GoodNewfieBoy
We got a guy
keonsbitterness
Registered User
I don't buy that. Every city has media, and some are just as tough media markets as Toronto.
The players are so insulated these days that they are in contact with the media less than the old days, and hardly at all this season due to Covid.
but we're not though!
If the Leafs had TRIED to win the series, they would have. But they didn't try. They toyed with the franchise, the fans, and the media. Players like Marner and Matthews don't just float around like that in these playoff series, they INTENTIONALLY float around because of some gripe they have with some aspect of playing for this team. Lots of players do the exact same in other cities, all the time. They're collecting the rest of their millions tomorrow and getting together for a huge summer party while the fans are still drying their tears lol... everyone needs to see this for what it is- that players will never like playing for this city for whatever reason only they know
Bomber0104
Registered User
We've won zero playoff rounds.
The Islanders have won many, against much better opponents over the same timeline.
tmlfan98
No More Excuses #MarnerOut
This core is cooked. Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Tavares aren't winning a thing here. I won't be watching a Leafs game until the Overpaid 4 is gone. Way worse than the Muskoka 5. From an entertainment standpoint there is no reason to continue consuming this product, these guys haven't entertained me in years.
We were -160, so not heavy, but were expected to win that series since most believed we underachieved and turned the corner after replacing Babs.
Muston Atthews
Bunch of Bangerz
Le Cobra
Rent A Goalie
good point. or we are simply cursed just like the Cubs and Red Sox were except possibly worse. If Vegas were to make odds what would happen first:
A. The Second Coming of Christ or
B. The Leafs winning the Stanley Cup
my bets are on the former.
His teams seem to play better than the sum of their parts when you look at results.
And, maybe if he was the one to choose Babs replacement, he'd have hired us a great coach too.
Maplebeasts
I See Demons!!!!!
Yeah Barry Trotz is a great coach eh? Outside of that one hiring Lou hasn't done shit.
Players need to be mentally tougher to play in Toronto but at the same time they also enjoy great perks as a Leafs. Someone like Mik will never have endorsement in any other markets unless he looks like David Beckham. Not to mention LV sponsoring them with clothes and bags.
Top to bottom, blow it up.
Keep Matthews one more go.
Marner out.
Keefe, liked him. But out.
Jack is not starting next year. As a tandem sure, but he'll be #2. Didn't get it done ether.
Rielly, questionable. They love him there.
Let's allow the new GM and President to have their say as well.
Its time for a change from "We can and we will"
Keep Matthews one more go.
Marner out.
Keefe, liked him. But out.
Jack is not starting next year. As a tandem sure, but he'll be #2. Didn't get it done ether.
Rielly, questionable. They love him there.
Let's allow the new GM and President to have their say as well.
Its time for a change from "We can and we will"
I thought loading up on leadership was a good call. But what they really need to do this offseason is try to figure out what kind of leadership this team needs from the veterans, because despite loading up on it, it didn't help. Thornton was a liability too often, Simmonds didn't play the game everyone expected. From that group, I'd probably keep Spezza and see if you can find a few more like him.
Hyman... Do you want to hang onto him or dump him? For all the talking up people did of him during the season, he wasn't very good in the playoffs either (though that might be because the whole line was shit); regardless, is he worth the money he's going to want, or do you maybe try to find someone who digs like he does with more of a scoring touch?
Kerfoot's probably gone to Seattle, and that might be a good thing (that's another $3.5 million).
He won 3 cups with I believe 3 different coaches in New Jersey. His teams have historically played significantly better than the sum of their parts, and maybe he is instrumental in creating a culture that allows for this to continually happen.
Maplebeasts
I See Demons!!!!!
The Islanders do. Us and the Devils certainly did not though when he was at the helm.
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