Eklund Rumor: Leafs in on Cam Fowler

[Nithoniniel]

Possession metrics and such that you see on the HERO charts show us the impact a player has according to models for how things work as a general rule for a population.

Applying generic findings like that on an individual level is called ecological fallacy, as what is true for the group is not necessarily true for each individual.

In most cases, HERO charts and possession metrics show us a good at-a-glance evaluation of a player, but one should try and remember that the accuracy of these on an individual level varies. Weber is one of these cases, and Fowler seem like another.

 

[aufheben]

Weber puts up a million points at least that's something tangible.

 

[Duke Silver]

I am hoping that Fowler returns a forward that we can afford to keep for more than 2 years, and if JvR pots 30 here he is looking at 6M-ish which we cant afford.

Isn't that a good thing, though? Ducks' window is going to close at some point, two years of JVR could put you over the top while it's still open.

Plus if JVR pots 30-30-60 and you know you can't keep him (which may be a stretch), he could be dealt for a pretty return.

 

[iBELEAF]

Hope not

 

[WhatTheDuck]

I do wonder if Despres would be a better fit for Toronto, he plays both sides but looks his best on the right.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

So maybe coaches and managers aren't infallible? People seem to have no problem saying how much Bieksa sucks.

And it's fine that people have no problem saying how much Bieksa sucks because they're accurate. The problem is that people are saying that Fowler was carried by the team and considering it's accurate to say that Bieksa sucks, for Fowler to be carried by the team would mean that the forwards carried him almost entirely and the team succeeded despite a top pairing that sucked. I think that's an absurd claim to make and I don't think anyone actually has anything to support that. People just like to point to Fowler's advanced stats that aren't impressive and go with him sucking ignoring all other context. Teams don't win in this league, and certainly not like the Ducks did, with a top pairing where both players suck. You can get away with one on a pairing being weak and succeeding during the season. Not both.

But ignoring that, if we're going to point to coaches and their infallibility, how does one explain Boudreau's usage of Fowler the past four years with Fowler being one of the top two or three d-men with the team succeeding? I just find it hard to believe that Fowler was getting carried that entire time. I get a pretty good amount of Ducks games around here. In this situation, we're coming to the conclusion that not only does Fowler suck but Boudreau sucks as well and that that somehow didn't prevent the team from winning.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Weber puts up a million points at least that's something tangible.

If Weber was playing with the caliber of partners that Fowler has been playing with, I'm sure their point totals would be a lot closer.

I do wonder if Despres would be a better fit for Toronto, he plays both sides but looks his best on the right.

I think Despres makes some sense for Toronto. I think Fowler makes sense for them as well. They don't have much beyond Rielly and Gardiner.

 

[eviohh26*]

Can anyone please tell me 1 thing Eklund has said that has been true.

 

[Kiwi]

I do wonder if Despres would be a better fit for Toronto, he plays both sides but looks his best on the right.

This makes way more since to me

We have a ton of NHL ready forwards who are cost controlled and we can't play them all
Lievo Lipsig Rychel Froese Shoshnikov Hyman Holland (if you want him back)

The Ducks could take some of those guys and fill out there forward ranks cheap while we get a Dman who has some talent but has not been the same since the concussion

Win win

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

If Weber was playing with the caliber of partners that Fowler has been playing with, I'm sure their point totals would be a lot closer.



I think Despres makes some sense for Toronto. I think Fowler makes sense for them as well. They don't have much beyond Rielly and Gardiner.

We sure Don't that's why Fowler makes sense I mean you add Fowler to Rielly and Gardiner and suddenly it starts to look better.

 

[Hunter368]

I love that no one said that. You're trying to defend an argument that no one made, to defend your ridiculous assertion that Fowler would only be a top 4 defenseman on a solid team.

You're accusing us of saying something we haven't said. In fact, the entirety of your post is an accusation, and it's trying to accuse us of saying something we never did. If you're going to try to defend your insinuation that Fowler is only a top 4 defenseman on a solid team, you should start there. Don't try to create an entirely new argument that doesn't exist.

I not arguing anything or defending, your the one who quoted me multi times.

If you want to believe Fowler is top pairing good for you. I guess I just learnt Mark Stuart is top 4 b/c we played him there and he played in major role on a playoff team two years ago. Sweet Jets need to trade him for top 4 value.

Classic HFB fan logic

 

[go4hockey]

JVR and Kapanen

for

Fowler and Stoner


it kind of makes sense for both teams.

So many on here say JVR for Fowler is close. Why in the world would Toronto gift Kapanen to ANA while taking on a awful contract in Stoner. Very bad for the Leafs.

 

[Duck Off]

This makes way more since to me

We have a ton of NHL ready forwards who are cost controlled and we can't play them all
Lievo Lipsig Rychel Froese Shoshnikov Hyman Holland (if you want him back)

The Ducks could take some of those guys and fill out there forward ranks cheap while we get a Dman who has some talent but has not been the same since the concussion

Win win

The only way the Ducks are going to move Despres is if they've decided to not trade Fowler. Based on team needs, we almost have to trade him at this point. The Ducks need to clear salary, not cap. Trading Despres, who makes over 1 million less than his cap hit this year, doesn't seem very logical.

 

[Duck Off]

I not arguing anything or defending, your the one who quoted me multi times.

If you want to believe Fowler is top pairing good for you. I guess I just learnt Mark Stuart is top 4 b/c we played him there and he played in major role on a playoff team two years ago. Sweet Jets need to trade him for top 4 value.

Classic HFB fan logic

That's a terrible comparison and terrible logic.

Most Duck fans who watched nearly every game will tell you that Fowler was easily our best defenseman for most of last season. Lindholm took that claim about the 3 quarters mark of the season and it carried into the playoffs. Fowler is easily a #2 defenseman. People should try watching him play rather than stare at some spreadsheet.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Can anyone please tell me 1 thing Eklund has said that has been true.

Hossa for heatley

Mike Richards to LA

Carter to Columbus

Franson and Lombardi to Toronto although in that instance he didn't have the names but did say a Leaf trade would be announced in the morning and it was

 

[lindholmie]

Weber puts up a million points at least that's something tangible.

and fowler averages around 35 points per season(.5PPG in the playoffs). Which is good since he plays against the toughest competition. Vatenen is sheltered by Fowler and Lindholm and he averages around the same amount and people love him. Idk why so many people hate Fowler.

 

[Sojourn]

I not arguing anything or defending, your the one who quoted me multi times.

If you want to believe Fowler is top pairing good for you. I guess I just learnt Mark Stuart is top 4 b/c we played him there and he played in major role on a playoff team two years ago. Sweet Jets need to trade him for top 4 value.

Classic HFB fan logic

So, I take it you didn't read the rest of the thread discussing Fowler's D partner? Good to know. Now there's classic fan logic: Trying to manipulate the facts, because you have nothing else to support your point.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Hossa for heatley: 11 years ago

Mike Richards to LA: 5 years ago

Carter to Columbus: 5 years ago

Franson and Lombardi to Toronto although in that instance he didn't have the names but did say a Leaf trade would be announced in the morning and it was: 5 years ago

For those that recall, there was this insider (not Eklund) on one of the Flyers forums (not HF) that spelled out long before the trade that Carter and Richards were being traded. I can't recall if he said where they'd go, but people thought he was nuts and he absolutely nailed it.

 

[The Shrike]

No one has ever said that buddy. We're just not giving up a guy like Lindholm for him like many leafs fans have proposed.

Fowler for JVR would be pretty good for us, not so much for the Leafs though imo.

JVR and Valiev for Vatanen.

 

[Hunter368]

So, I take it you didn't read the rest of the thread discussing Fowler's D partner? Good to know. Now there's classic fan logic: Trying to manipulate the facts, because you have nothing else to support your point.

I seen it, doesn't change all the facts.....but good of you to finally acknowledge he didn't play like a true top pairing guy. He's a top 4 guy, nothing wrong with that, still a valuable piece.....he's just to a true top pairing IMO and others opinion.

I don't need anymore facts, the facts agree with me, your the one who needs to prove the stats wrong not me. When he starts producing analytically like a top pairing in most areas I'll agree he's top pairing. Currently most of the stats indicate he's only top 4.

 

[Sojourn]

I seen it, doesn't change all the facts.....but good of you to finally acknowledge he didn't play like a true top pairing guy. He's a top 4 guy, nothing wrong with that, still a valuable piece.....he's just to a true top pairing IMO and others opinion.

I don't need anymore facts, the facts agree with me, your the one who needs to prove the stats wrong not me. When he starts producing analytically like a top pairing in most areas I'll agree he's top pairing. Currently most of the stats indicate he's only top 4.

Now you're putting words into my mouth, just as you did trying to create an argument about Anaheim fans saying they had a #1 at every position.

The fact is you've put your foot in your mouth no less than three times so far. First, in saying that he's just a top 4 guy on a solid team(see: Anaheim), after that you followed it up by accusing Anaheim fans of saying something they didn't, and finally, you're accusing me of saying something I didn't.

All you've done is try to deflect the counter arguments, instead of actually addressing them.

 

[Kiwi]

The only way the Ducks are going to move Despres is if they've decided to not trade Fowler. Based on team needs, we almost have to trade him at this point. The Ducks need to clear salary, not cap. Trading Despres, who makes over 1 million less than his cap hit this year, doesn't seem very logical.

If you work on a couple of young guys on ELCs and deduct Despres salary your looking at saving a couple of million dollars
You keep Fowler who is better and clear some salary while filling out your forward ranks
How does this not make sense for a team in win now mode?

 

[Hunter368]

That's a terrible comparison and terrible logic.

Most Duck fans who watched nearly every game will tell you that Fowler was easily our best defenseman for most of last season. Lindholm took that claim about the 3 quarters mark of the season and it carried into the playoffs. Fowler is easily a #2 defenseman. People should try watching him play rather than stare at some spreadsheet.

Never compared the two directly, I compared the logic used to call Fowler top pairing is similar a Jets fan calling Stuart top 4 just b/c we played him there. Just b/c a team plays a player in a certain position doesn't make him any better player. Fowler is top 4, Stuart is bottom pairing....regardless where their respective teams play them.

 

[dracom]

JVR and Valiev for Vatanen.

Why would we give up Vats who's signed for 4 more years for JVR who's signed for 2 years and a prospect we don't need? Terrible offer.

 

[Sojourn]

If you work on a couple of young guys on ELCs and deduct Despres salary your looking at saving a couple of million dollars
You keep Fowler who is better and clear some salary while filling out your forward ranks
How does this not make sense for a team in win now mode?

It does, but you also need to consider other needs.

I think there are a number of Anaheim fans who agree with you that this wouldn't be a bad approach. The issue is that the team is also trying to improve themselves up front. Moving someone like Fowler could help that. The question is whether it's an overall gain for the Ducks. I'm skeptical of that.