Eklund Rumor: Leafs in on Cam Fowler

[ACC1224]

Based on what exactly? Not saying Fowler's not a great d-man, but your anti-Leaf bias is usually extremely strong on here so just curious as to what you're basing this claim on. According to this poll going on right now, fans don't think he would "instantly" be our best d-man:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2114367

Based on the hive thinking that all things Leaf suck.

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

Fowler for JVR straight up is fair value

No one said that a deal with the Leafs will be fair...it won't be.
Anaheim has pressure to make a deal that Toronto doesn't have.
Any deal between these two will be won by the Leafs on paper because another year of Anaheim being good but not good enough is not going to be acceptable by the fan base.
Gibson hasn't been great in the playoffs and Andersen won't be there to save the day.
They may really need the extra scoring of a JVR or a Bozak.

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

Lmaoo it's not that serious. People kept saying the same thing about vatanen and he already re-signed. Lindholm, fowler and vatanen combined can make less than 15 million. If the ducks had to make a trade, Toronto wouldn't be the only team Calling. You see how much young defensemen are going for? The ducks were suppose to get lesser value for Freddy because they had to trade one of him and Gibson yet he returned way more than some Toronto fans thought.

Toronto really needed a starter and Calgary forced them to give Anaheim a good return.
Anaheim will either need to shed salary (Fowler) or trade Lindholm because they can't afford him.
Because of Toronto's LTIR situation they can take on extra salary very few other teams could.
The thought that Tatar is an option, although not as good as JVR, is wrong because Detroit is way over the cap already (even taking into account their own LTIR situation) and would want Anaheim to take back more salary than Detroit takes on.

I think if the Ducks want to make a move for a top six forward they will be dealing with the Leafs.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

How many PMD? A whole team of them? You need balance. Look at Pitt. You put 5 guys on the ice. Not 5 PMD -- two wingers. With Reilly and Gardiner he's not a need in Toronto and none of those guys are playing RD or bottom pairing. Pretty logical if you allow it to be.

Straw man argument isn't going to get you anywhere. You ice six d-men. You need at least three of them to be good PMD's. You need four of them that are reliable in a top four role. The Leafs have two proven guys that hit the mark for those two areas. You say that none of those guys are playing RD yet you're absolutely incorrect because Rielly has done it and likely will do it again next year. Who is their RD options right now? Polak, Zaitsev, and Carrick? None of those guys are going to be on the 1st pair unless you're not interested in winning nor interested in proper development of players.

If Fowler can play 1st line left wing...then i agree. But if not, then i pass....we don't have a JVR replacement.

You don't need a JVR replacement. JVR's impact on winning games isn't that great. Productive player sure but blue line depth is more important than a top winger that isn't a high end playmaker.

 

[aufheben]

I'm very happy that Gardiner's advanced stats are so great. It really contributed to winning a lot of games last season.

One skater isn't the difference between a team being at the top or the bottom. Definitely not in the Gardiner/Fowler tier. Chris Tanev: one of the best defensive-defensemen in the NHL; plays on a terrible defensive team.

 

[Liferleafer]

Straw man argument isn't going to get you anywhere. You ice six d-men. You need at least three of them to be good PMD's. You need four of them that are reliable in a top four role. The Leafs have two proven guys that hit the mark for those two areas. You say that none of those guys are playing RD yet you're absolutely incorrect because Rielly has done it and likely will do it again next year. Who is their RD options right now? Polak, Zaitsev, and Carrick? None of those guys are going to be on the 1st pair unless you're not interested in winning nor interested in proper development of players.



You don't need a JVR replacement. JVR's impact on winning games isn't that great. Productive player sure but blue line depth is more important than a top winger that isn't a high end playmaker.

Really? Take a look at the team that just won the cup....did that D group scream high end defense when you looked on paper? They were playing cast off Schultz...guys like Cole...Lovejoy....i mean after Letang, you have Maata and ??? But you know what they do have? One Hell of a forward group.

Furthermore, as far as impact, lets say JVR scores 25-30 goals....and assists and assists on 25-30 more (pretty much what he has done), that means that he has a positive impact on 50-60 goals. Now, unless Fowler is guaranteed to prevent 50-60 goals that the Leafs would allow without him, how can you say he has more impact than JVR?

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Really? Take a look at the team that just won the cup....did that D group scream high end defense when you looked on paper? They were playing cast off Schultz...guys like Cole...Lovejoy....i mean after Letang, you have Maata and ??? But you know what they do have? One Hell of a forward group.

Furthermore, as far as impact, lets say JVR scores 25-30 goals....and assists and assists on 25-30 more (pretty much what he has done), that means that he has a positive impact on 50-60 goals. Now, unless Fowler is guaranteed to prevent 50-60 goals that the Leafs would allow without him, how can you say he has more impact than JVR?

That hell of a forward group didn't really include anyone that is a JVR type of winger either. It was mostly plugs surrounding the likes of Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel. But the guys you're missing that are pretty good at moving the puck back there are Dumoulin, Maatta, and Schultz.

 

[Liferleafer]

That hell of a forward group didn't really include anyone that is a JVR type of winger either. It was mostly plugs surrounding the likes of Crosby, Malkin, and Kessel. But the guys you're missing that are pretty good at moving the puck back there are Dumoulin, Maatta, and Schultz.

Dumoulin was a question mark (played great though)....Schultz was let go by the Oilers...one of the worst defensive groups in the league, so to say we are missing those guys may be incorrect. We have Rielly/Gardiner...2 proven puck movers. We have a wild card in Zaitsev, who at 24, has proven he can play with men. Then we have Marincin, who really stepped up in the second half...we have Carrick, another wild card, but maybe he's our Dumoulin. So ya, we may be terrible...or maybe our management knows something and we aren't.

 

[4thline]

I'd rather Ellis or especially Spurgeon if we were going after a 2/3 type. I have hope but not expectation that Zaitsev can become a strong 3, if so that's a big piece in place for a "strength through balanced depth" rather than "rely on two work horses" top 4

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Dumoulin was a question mark (played great though)....Schultz was let go by the Oilers...one of the worst defensive groups in the league, so to say we are missing those guys may be incorrect. We have Rielly/Gardiner...2 proven puck movers. We have a wild card in Zaitsev, who at 24, has proven he can play with men. Then we have Marincin, who really stepped up in the second half...we have Carrick, another wild card, but maybe he's our Dumoulin. So ya, we may be terrible...or maybe our management knows something and we aren't.

Dumoulin was a question mark to start the season but they weren't asking him to step into the top four immediately w/o any sort of backup plan. Schultz was let go but he was good at one thing and it was moving the puck...then they sheltered him. The 3rd pairing for the Leafs at this point doesn't have someone with that kind of puck-movement skills and probably won't. So to try and compare your blue line now to what the Pens have is quite a stretch.

It also still doesn't acknowledge the reality that your top line LW is not a real difference between winning and losing.

 

[JetsHomer]

I don't see how the Ducks will get good value for Fowler. They are pretty much forced to move him + someone else if they want to have any hope of signing Lindholm and Rakell

 

[WTFMAN99]

I don't see how this is still going. Eklund released Fowler to TOR and Shattenkirk to MTL on the same day. Clearly looking for hits from huge fan bases.

These have no merit.

 

[Liferleafer]

Dumoulin was a question mark to start the season but they weren't asking him to step into the top four immediately w/o any sort of backup plan. Schultz was let go but he was good at one thing and it was moving the puck...then they sheltered him. The 3rd pairing for the Leafs at this point doesn't have someone with that kind of puck-movement skills and probably won't. So to try and compare your blue line now to what the Pens have is quite a stretch.

Why can't Carrick be sheltered like Schultz? Why can't Corrado be sheltered like Schultz? Why can't Marincin continue his good play and be a solid top 4? Why can't Zaitsev step in as a capable top 4?

And i wasn't comparing, i was pointing out that the Pens won the cup with a less than stellar (on paper) defense. They played great, my question is why it's assumed that the Leafs D won't?

 

[Kiwi]

I don't see how this is still going. Eklund released Fowler to TOR and Shattenkirk to MTL on the same day. Clearly looking for hits from huge fan bases.

These have no merit.

Eklund is awful I'll admit but I would do this deal and it does make some scense

 

[Kiwi]

Why can't Carrick be sheltered like Schultz? Why can't Corrado be sheltered like Schultz? Why can't Marincin continue his good play and be a solid top 4? Why can't Zaitsev step in as a capable top 4?

And i wasn't comparing, i was pointing out that the Pens won the cup with a less than stellar (on paper) defense. They played great, my question is why it's assumed that the Leafs D won't?

How long do you see the rebuild lasting?
D takes longer to develop if we want to compete while Mathews Marner and Nylander are still cost controlled we need to sort out our D as soon as possible
Also if we are going to resign either of these players in the future I'd much rather spend that money on Fowler than JVR
D last longer so in all likely hood Fowler would give us MUCH better bang for our cap dollar in the future and 3 of our top 4 D would be sorted for a decade or so
This is a deal worth making

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Why can't Carrick be sheltered like Schultz? Why can't Corrado be sheltered like Schultz? Why can't Marincin continue his good play and be a solid top 4? Why can't Zaitsev step in as a capable top 4?

And i wasn't comparing, i was pointing out that the Pens won the cup with a less than stellar (on paper) defense. They played great, my question is why it's assumed that the Leafs D won't?

The honest answer to your questions comes down to their talent levels. If you want to hope they're talented enough to fill those roles and the team wins, you're more than welcome to do that. I have sincere doubts about that. The simple reality is that the Leafs will be facing very long odds that all those things work out to their benefit and a lot of that is likely due to a lack of talent and a lack of experience to compliment the youth that is there.

If you weren't comparing then your point is utter garbage. You can't just say that their D was less than stellar and try to make some vague general statement like it can apply to other teams. The fact is that it doesn't. There are particular reasons why that D worked and when you look at those reasons then look at the Leafs, they won't be able to replicate it because the pieces simply aren't there. That's why it's likely correct to assume that the Leafs won't play great on D.

 

[lindholmie]

I don't see how the Ducks will get good value for Fowler. They are pretty much forced to move him + someone else if they want to have any hope of signing Lindholm and Rakell

yeah fowlers a cap dump. i mean 24 year olds who average 35 points while plying toughest competition go for cheap. I mean he just averaged 26+ mins a game in the playoffs while also having a .5PPG . Those players are dime a dozen. Plus hes overpaid. He makes a whole 4 million

 

[4thline]

yeah fowlers a cap dump. i mean 24 year olds who average 35 points while plying toughest competition go for cheap. I mean he just averaged 26+ mins a game in the playoffs while also having a .5PPG . Those players are dime a dozen. Plus hes overpaid. He makes a whole 4 million

Low leverage situation with cap pressure to make a deal does not equal cap dump.
It's dumb to hyperbolize to make it seem like the situation doesn't exist, however I think the impact will be less than many suggest. It may nibble on the margins somewhat but won't slash asking price in half. Too much goodwill involved in gm relations, and too high profile a player.

 

[Liferleafer]

The honest answer to your questions comes down to their talent levels. If you want to hope they're talented enough to fill those roles and the team wins, you're more than welcome to do that. I have sincere doubts about that. The simple reality is that the Leafs will be facing very long odds that all those things work out to their benefit and a lot of that is likely due to a lack of talent and a lack of experience to compliment the youth that is there.

If you weren't comparing then your point is utter garbage. You can't just say that their D was less than stellar and try to make some vague general statement like it can apply to other teams. The fact is that it doesn't. There are particular reasons why that D worked and when you look at those reasons then look at the Leafs, they won't be able to replicate it because the pieces simply aren't there. That's why it's likely correct to assume that the Leafs won't play great on D.

I wasn't comparing...i was giving an example to your "you can't win without great defense" opinion. AGAIN..would love to add Fowler....just not for JVR.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I wasn't comparing...i was giving an example to your "you can't win without great defense" opinion. AGAIN..would love to add Fowler....just not for JVR.

So you're making a contradictory statement because you say it's an example of you can't win without a great defense then admit that they played great so again your point is utter garbage. lol

 

[TNCHL]

What would a deal look like without JvR in it

 

[Liferleafer]

How long do you see the rebuild lasting?
D takes longer to develop if we want to compete while Mathews Marner and Nylander are still cost controlled we need to sort out our D as soon as possible
Also if we are going to resign either of these players in the future I'd much rather spend that money on Fowler than JVR
D last longer so in all likely hood Fowler would give us MUCH better bang for our cap dollar in the future and 3 of our top 4 D would be sorted for a decade or so
This is a deal worth making

At least 1-2 more years. And not once, in any of my posts, have i bashed Fowler. I just don't want to create a big hole to fill a small hole. If we were talking JVR+ for Lindholm (obviously not happening) or JVR for Vataenen (RHD is a bigger need...plus i like his defense better than Fowler's) then sure, but LHD who are puck movers we have.

 

[4thline]

So you're making a contradictory statement because you say it's an example of you can't win without a great defense then admit that they played great so again your point is utter garbage. lol

Or you know, he was just pointing out (using the most recent cup champions as an example) that the defence doesn't have to be the strength of a team in terms of name recognition and asset allocation for a team to be successful, and that while certainly not world beaters the Leafs current group should be quite fine for a development year, and be good enough for the team to show large improvement.

Or

Lol dumbdumb made man for man direct comparison which is garbage

 

[Holymakinaw]

What would a deal look like without JvR in it

Fowler to Toronto for...........free?

(it's a good deal for the Leafs..)

 

[Liferleafer]

So you're making a contradictory statement because you say it's an example of you can't win without a great defense then admit that they played great so again your point is utter garbage. lol

Um no...you said you can't win without great defense (which was the basis of your reasoning behind trading our only !LW for Fowler)....i showed an example that you actually can. That's why i kept using the term "on paper".

Letang/Maata/Dumoulin/Lovejoy/Cole/Schultz/Pouliot....that's on paper. So, if you looked at that prior to the playoffs, would you have called that a cup winning D? Does that look like something that should beat the Hawks D? The Ducks D? Nashville? LA? They played great...yes, not sure how that makes my point utter garbage...because my exact point was maybe the Leafs D can play well as well. At no point did i say the Leafs D was better....comparable...the same....