Confirmed with Link: Leafs fire goaltending coach Steve Briere

[Kaladin]

If we all continually judge everyone's performance by PO results only, then everyone has to go. It's a short discussion. It's a Harold Ballard mentality. He continually belittled everyone in the organization by a simple "what have you won" metric. I hope we as an organization and fanbase, have advanced beyond Harold Ballard. Can we jettison this Neanderthal mentality already.

This just proves my initial point. This goalie coach firing is the first time Dubas has fired anyone based on lack of performance (something I didn't think he had the heart to do tbh). The Babcock firing was based more on social stuff like this - Dubas wasn't a fan of that mentality so he got rid of it. Had nothing to do with lack of performance.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

This just proves my initial point. This goalie coach firing is the first time Dubas has fired anyone based on lack of performance (something I didn't think he had the heart to do tbh). The Babcock firing was based more on social stuff like this - Dubas wasn't a fan of that mentality so he got rid of it. Had nothing to do with lack of performance.

Well he was sucking at the beginning of the season he was fired. He also made decisions which were far more questionable than what Keefe has generally made.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Babcock performance was pretty bad. It wasn't just his stupid tactics that got him fired. He was making a lot of bad decisions. Like playing a washed up Marleau more minutes in game 7 than a 40 goal superstar for example.

This just proves my initial point. This goalie coach firing is the first time Dubas has fired anyone based on lack of performance (something I didn't think he had the heart to do tbh). The Babcock firing was based more on social stuff like this - Dubas wasn't a fan of that mentality so he got rid of it. Had nothing to do with lack of performance.

 

[Nylanderthal]

He's gotten results in the regular season

He has made errors and gotten worked in the playoffs

He's 8-11 in the playoffs with 7 of those losses coming in series where his team was thr heavy favorite

He's failed to get the leafs prepared to close out the Habs 3 straight times and vs the Bolts didn't have us ready for game 4 where we could have taken a strangle hold on the series

He has a fetish for Holl whose been involved in numerous bad reads and pinches which have cost the team repeatedly

The special teams generally fall off heavily in the playoffs as compared to the regular season

Offense as the series drags on slows down with little adjustments to our lines

Dubas has had a B/B+ tenure so far

Keefe is a C+ and benefits from a really solid team which Dubas and parts by past management, have built.

There are upgrades available right now and we could use a different voice yet were sticking with Keefe.

Dubas will likely lose his job due to sticking with Keefe

Couldn’t even get 40 words in before spewing bs eh? They were not “heavy favourites” against Columbus. They were statistically tied in pts% after 70/82 games.
YOU might’ve considered them heavy favourites, and Vegas always leans towards the big draw (just look at nba and nhl championship futures, it skews to big markets to get dollars in) so they were the betting favourite but not by a “big” margin and most of the hockey pundits I remember were pretty split in their picks.

 

[Nylanderthal]

This just proves my initial point. This goalie coach firing is the first time Dubas has fired anyone based on lack of performance (something I didn't think he had the heart to do tbh). The Babcock firing was based more on social stuff like this - Dubas wasn't a fan of that mentality so he got rid of it. Had nothing to do with lack of performance.

80 point pace through a quarter of the season (USA thanksgiving is the marker teams go by to see if they’re good or not). His firing was completely because of performance.
He was the same onerous dickhead he has always been, he just stopped producing results for the group, and then he was gone.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Yup that was me



Yup that's me

I went back through that thread and copied what you said so others can save some time digging. What you say aligns with what either Bernier or Reimer said in private to a friend of mine who pseudo works at MLSE. He said that Briere wanted to tinker with EVERYTHING about a goalie to make him like he thought they should be without giving a thought to the fact they are all slightly different. He said Briere kept telling him to "unlearn" some of the stuff he had been taught. He also said Briere is an idiot and he was thrilled to get away from him. Anyways...here is what you wrote:

For sure. I had him as a goalie coach when I was in my early teens, and after a few sessions I knew he was a quack. He spent way too much time on the mental aspect and not enough on actual skills. Dumb shit like packing/unpacking your bag a certain way, visualize success and all those new age mental buzzwords. On the ice he was more concerned with turning guys into perfect little robot clones of his ideal goaltender. He didn't understand that different goalies have different styles/weaknesses.

I moved on to GDI, now called Rink Hockey Academy. They're the best in the business here (They trained Chris Dreidger, as well as just about every goalie in the WHL and NCAA that's from Winnipeg and surrounding area). My coach there tailored my game based on my strengths/weaknesses and adapted his coaching to teach me a style that was best for me. He didn't have some cookie cutter coaching for every goalie. When I needed help on the mental side he fixed me up there too, again with a more personal approach. He told me how and why things work (or don't) for me, as opposed to Briere's "do this cause I said so" style.

Now if you don't believe me that's fine, I wouldn't blame you. I'm just some dickhead on a message board. But one thing I'll never understand is how Briere jumped from being a Jr. A goalie coach in the NAHL, with his own private coaching business on the side, straight to the NHL. Don't get me wrong, the NAHL is a great league if you're trying to go play NCAA. But they aren't known for producing NHLers. So how does this nobody move up from there to the Leafs of all teams? And even more so, how does he stay around this long when in his entire tenure in Toronto he hasn't actually produced a single NHL goalie? Literally all he's done is make Andersen worse, and churn out a revolving cast of backups. No prospect has turned out in his 5+ years. That to me is the most telling of all

 

[stickty111]

This just proves my initial point. This goalie coach firing is the first time Dubas has fired anyone based on lack of performance (something I didn't think he had the heart to do tbh). The Babcock firing was based more on social stuff like this - Dubas wasn't a fan of that mentality so he got rid of it. Had nothing to do with lack of performance.

If you think Babcock was fired for non performance reasons, you clearly didn't pay attention to his performance.

 

[Kaladin]

Babcock performance was pretty bad. It wasn't just his stupid tactics that got him fired. He was making a lot of bad decisions. Like playing a washed up Marleau more minutes in game 7 than a 40 goal superstar for example.

If you honestly think Dubas would fire Keefe if he had played Marleau more than Matthews in a Game 7 then I don't know what to tell you. Dubas was obviously just looking for excuses to bring his buddy Keefe up to the NHL since he got the GM job. Babcock has performed better in the playoffs for the leafs than Keefe has. Colombus and Montreal were way worse losses than anything Babcock did - with worse teams to boot.

If you think Babcock was fired for non performance reasons, you clearly didn't pay attention to his performance.

I did - it' was just as bad as Keefe's is now in the only thing that matters. The playoffs. If babcock was fired based on those performance reasons than Keefe should be too. If keefe isn't then the only assumption you can make is the Babcock was fired for non-performance reasons or Dubas has a lower bar for Keefe. Which is it?

 

[hamzarocks]

Couldn’t even get 40 words in before spewing bs eh? They were not “heavy favourites” against Columbus. They were statistically tied in pts% after 70/82 games.
YOU might’ve considered them heavy favourites, and Vegas always leans towards the big draw (just look at nba and nhl championship futures, it skews to big markets to get dollars in) so they were the betting favourite but not by a “big” margin and most of the hockey pundits I remember were pretty split in their picks.

And you start right off by being a grade A homer I see.

Only elite homerism can make one think the Leafs and Blue Jackets were entering into the playoffs as near equals.

Fans were going on how Keefe had transformed the team and how the 23 games under Babcock led to us being in a WC spot

Leafs were expected to win thst series pretty convincingly. The big 4, barrie/rielly, andersen etc we were on paper better at forward, defense and goaltending.

That loss was embarrassing due to us being shut down after we were going on how our offense is elite and would power through CBJs defense.

Spewing B.S would be counting the Bolts series as having us the favorites. It was even/slight advantage Tampa entering game 1

 

[ToneDog]

I went back through that thread and copied what you said so others can save some time digging. What you say aligns with what either Bernier or Reimer said in private to a friend of mine who pseudo works at MLSE. He said that Briere wanted to tinker with EVERYTHING about a goalie to make him like he thought they should be without giving a thought to the fact they are all slightly different. He said Briere kept telling him to "unlearn" some of the stuff he had been taught. He also said Briere is an idiot and he was thrilled to get away from him. Anyways...here is what you wrote:

For sure. I had him as a goalie coach when I was in my early teens, and after a few sessions I knew he was a quack. He spent way too much time on the mental aspect and not enough on actual skills. Dumb shit like packing/unpacking your bag a certain way, visualize success and all those new age mental buzzwords. On the ice he was more concerned with turning guys into perfect little robot clones of his ideal goaltender. He didn't understand that different goalies have different styles/weaknesses.

I moved on to GDI, now called Rink Hockey Academy. They're the best in the business here (They trained Chris Dreidger, as well as just about every goalie in the WHL and NCAA that's from Winnipeg and surrounding area). My coach there tailored my game based on my strengths/weaknesses and adapted his coaching to teach me a style that was best for me. He didn't have some cookie cutter coaching for every goalie. When I needed help on the mental side he fixed me up there too, again with a more personal approach. He told me how and why things work (or don't) for me, as opposed to Briere's "do this cause I said so" style.

Now if you don't believe me that's fine, I wouldn't blame you. I'm just some dickhead on a message board. But one thing I'll never understand is how Briere jumped from being a Jr. A goalie coach in the NAHL, with his own private coaching business on the side, straight to the NHL. Don't get me wrong, the NAHL is a great league if you're trying to go play NCAA. But they aren't known for producing NHLers. So how does this nobody move up from there to the Leafs of all teams? And even more so, how does he stay around this long when in his entire tenure in Toronto he hasn't actually produced a single NHL goalie? Literally all he's done is make Andersen worse, and churn out a revolving cast of backups. No prospect has turned out in his 5+ years. That to me is the most telling of all

It took them how many years to figure out this guy was a quack?

 

[TGB]

By winning you don't mean Cups, right!....because that is what describes winning.

https://cms.nhl.bamgrid.com/images/photos/299072340/1024x576/cut.jpg

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

I went back through that thread and copied what you said so others can save some time digging. What you say aligns with what either Bernier or Reimer said in private to a friend of mine who pseudo works at MLSE. He said that Briere wanted to tinker with EVERYTHING about a goalie to make him like he thought they should be without giving a thought to the fact they are all slightly different. He said Briere kept telling him to "unlearn" some of the stuff he had been taught. He also said Briere is an idiot and he was thrilled to get away from him. Anyways...here is what you wrote:

For sure. I had him as a goalie coach when I was in my early teens, and after a few sessions I knew he was a quack. He spent way too much time on the mental aspect and not enough on actual skills. Dumb shit like packing/unpacking your bag a certain way, visualize success and all those new age mental buzzwords. On the ice he was more concerned with turning guys into perfect little robot clones of his ideal goaltender. He didn't understand that different goalies have different styles/weaknesses.

I moved on to GDI, now called Rink Hockey Academy. They're the best in the business here (They trained Chris Dreidger, as well as just about every goalie in the WHL and NCAA that's from Winnipeg and surrounding area). My coach there tailored my game based on my strengths/weaknesses and adapted his coaching to teach me a style that was best for me. He didn't have some cookie cutter coaching for every goalie. When I needed help on the mental side he fixed me up there too, again with a more personal approach. He told me how and why things work (or don't) for me, as opposed to Briere's "do this cause I said so" style.

Now if you don't believe me that's fine, I wouldn't blame you. I'm just some dickhead on a message board. But one thing I'll never understand is how Briere jumped from being a Jr. A goalie coach in the NAHL, with his own private coaching business on the side, straight to the NHL. Don't get me wrong, the NAHL is a great league if you're trying to go play NCAA. But they aren't known for producing NHLers. So how does this nobody move up from there to the Leafs of all teams? And even more so, how does he stay around this long when in his entire tenure in Toronto he hasn't actually produced a single NHL goalie? Literally all he's done is make Andersen worse, and churn out a revolving cast of backups. No prospect has turned out in his 5+ years. That to me is the most telling of all

Allaire did the same thing too. He made Reimer and Gustavsson worse. Reimer was more succesfull when he played deeper. He had an aggressive athletic style that resulted in him giving up a lot of rebounds. By being deeper in his crease he had less ground to make up on rebounds. When Allaire started getting him to come out more, he was out of position more often than not and was getting exposed.

These coaches need to realize that these goalie have gotten where they are for a reason and just need fine tuning. Trying to change everything they've known is counter productive.

 

[keonsbitterness]

And you start right off by being a grade A homer I see.

Only elite homerism can make one think the Leafs and Blue Jackets were entering into the playoffs as near equals.

Fans were going on how Keefe had transformed the team and how the 23 games under Babcock led to us being in a WC spot

Leafs were expected to win thst series pretty convincingly. The big 4, barrie/rielly, andersen etc we were on paper better at forward, defense and goaltending.

That loss was embarrassing due to us being shut down after we were going on how our offense is elite and would power through CBJs defense.

Spewing B.S would be counting the Bolts series as having us the favorites. It was even/slight advantage Tampa entering game 1

Disagree with you both. We were neither convincing favourites nor near equals, but somewhere in between.

 

[kevsh]

Whatever the Leafs were considered versus the Jackets, they were awful. They made Columbus look like they had a Norris-trophy laden defence and Hasek 2.0 in net.

The Leafs played one good game out of five and it took nearly 100 minutes into the series to score their first goal. The series of course only went the distance because of a 3 minute miracle with the goalie pulled in game 4. There was no excuse for them to be dominated so thoroughly by that Columbus roster, regardless of where each team was in the standings.

 

[BackPassChampions]

This just proves my initial point. This goalie coach firing is the first time Dubas has fired anyone based on lack of performance (something I didn't think he had the heart to do tbh). The Babcock firing was based more on social stuff like this - Dubas wasn't a fan of that mentality so he got rid of it. Had nothing to do with lack of performance.

To say it had “nothing” to do with lack of performance is just not true.

 

[Stephen]

Whatever the Leafs were considered versus the Jackets, they were awful. They made Columbus look like they had a Norris-trophy laden defence and Hasek 2.0 in net.

The Leafs played one good game out of five and it took nearly 100 minutes into the series to score their first goal. The series of course only went the distance because of a 3 minute miracle with the goalie pulled in game 4. There was no excuse for them to be dominated so thoroughly by that Columbus roster, regardless of where each team was in the standings.

Start to finish that 2019-20 Toronto Maple Leafs team was rotten and really blemished the reputation of the core group, setting the table for 2x incomplete redemption tours in 2020-21 and 2021-22. Difficult to fathom the amount of humiliating hockey that group was responsible for in that season from the start of the season that got Babcock fired to the EBUG game to the Columbus series.

 

[zeke]

This just proves my initial point. This goalie coach firing is the first time Dubas has fired anyone based on lack of performance (something I didn't think he had the heart to do tbh). The Babcock firing was based more on social stuff like this - Dubas wasn't a fan of that mentality so he got rid of it. Had nothing to do with lack of performance.

It had everything to do with performance.

Defense (xGA/60)

16-17: #28
17-18: #24
18-19: #25
19-20: #28

Fired. Then immediately...

19-20: #15
20-21: #10
21-22: #4

 

[Bomber0104]

It had everything to do with performance.

Defense (xGA/60)

16-17: #28
17-18: #24
18-19: #25
19-20: #28

Fired. Then immediately...

19-20: #15
20-21: #10
21-22: #4

And yet they're still the same 1st round losers in the playoffs each and every year...

At least Babcock's didn't choke 3-1 and 3-2 series leads in back-to-back years and still had the young/developing label to fall back on.

This is literally the best we're ever going to get and they still can't win a single round

Oh, and Leafs in four..

 

[Kaladin]

It had everything to do with performance.

Defense (xGA/60)

16-17: #28
17-18: #24
18-19: #25
19-20: #28

Fired. Then immediately...

19-20: #15
20-21: #10
21-22: #4

Is that the 19-20 season they didn't even make the playoffs? Doesn't seem like xGA mattered much. Or the 20-21 season they lost in the first round to heavy underdogs Montreal blowing a 3-1 series lead?

Keefe's performance is just as bad when it matters. If Babcock was fired for performance so should Keefe, since he looks like he might stay in the job another 10 years I think we're forced to conclude there were other factors at play.

 

[Enga Olly]

No....1967 is the only standard....even Yolanda wanted cups.
Likely Harold, was a problem for execs...but that does not mean the goal is less than a Cup.
I am sick of watching cup finals with Sunbelt teams.
You either have a tradition of winning or you are a sorry loser. What are we? Losers!
Joni Mitchell told us that.
As a Leaf fan we should be embarrassed that since 6 teams played, hockey hotbeds like Tampa, San Jose, LA, win championships. Toronto Maple Leafs, 0 for 55.

I was embarrassed by those eighties teams, I was embarrassed by the Ferguson/Burke/Nonis years with Dion f***in' Phanuef as a captain. Not embarrassed by 60 goal scorers and 115 point seasons - although losing to Montreal was embarrassing or soul crushing. So we're embarrassed by different things, that's fine. I hated not making the playoffs 10 out of 11 years - that was embarrassing. Give me 100+ points per season years anytime over Ferguson/Burke/Nonis ineptitude.

 

[BigBlu]

If only Mrazek had a better coach!!

 

[ACC1224]

And you start right off by being a grade A homer I see.

Only elite homerism can make one think the Leafs and Blue Jackets were entering into the playoffs as near equals.

Fans were going on how Keefe had transformed the team and how the 23 games under Babcock led to us being in a WC spot

Leafs were expected to win thst series pretty convincingly. The big 4, barrie/rielly, andersen etc we were on paper better at forward, defense and goaltending.

That loss was embarrassing due to us being shut down after we were going on how our offense is elite and would power through CBJs defense.

Spewing B.S would be counting the Bolts series as having us the favorites. It was even/slight advantage Tampa entering game 1

This is the truth.

 

[Niagara Bill]

I was embarrassed by those eighties teams, I was embarrassed by the Ferguson/Burke/Nonis years with Dion f***in' Phanuef as a captain. Not embarrassed by 60 goal scorers and 115 point seasons - although losing to Montreal was embarrassing or soul crushing. So we're embarrassed by different things, that's fine. I hated not making the playoffs 10 out of 11 years - that was embarrassing. Give me 100+ points per season years anytime over Ferguson/Burke/Nonis ineptitude.

So what you are saying is, this is better than Burke, Nonis, but we are 0-55.
When we had great players like Salming, Turnbull, Sittler, Williams, the problem was management and coaching.
So now AM, MM, WN, MR, and we keep our coach and GM. Sounds like you should hate Dubis and Keefe in a few years when we are 0-60.

 

[ACC1224]

Is that the 19-20 season they didn't even make the playoffs? Doesn't seem like xGA mattered much. Or the 20-21 season they lost in the first round to heavy underdogs Montreal blowing a 3-1 series lead?

Keefe's performance is just as bad when it matters. If Babcock was fired for performance so should Keefe, since he looks like he might stay in the job another 10 years I think we're forced to conclude there were other factors at play.

Team quit on Babcock obviously a different voice and a maturing team is going to improve.
Pretty funny the constant bashing of Babcock and Lou Lam to pump Keefe and Dubas. They’ve all had just as much success.

 

[Mess]

Team quit on Babcock obviously a different voice and a maturing team is going to improve.
Pretty funny the constant bashing of Babcock and Lou Lam to pump Keefe and Dubas. They’ve all had just as much success.

Difference in management styles.

Lou Lam and Babcock brought discipline and structure to a young group and the players revolted wanting more freedom. A parent and child relationship where its expected leadership/guidance to come from above,

Dubas and Keefe manage as if they're the players best friends, their equals, and age wise there isn't much difference, giving them the freedom without rules and guidelines, allowing the inmates to run the asylum. A best friend relationship, but unable to direct and guide and put a team over the top because their voice has no impact.

Clearly when Lou Lam drafted Matthews a 19 year old kid scoring 34 goals and winning the Calder vs Washington in playoffs, vs a now 23 year old mature 60 goal Rocket Richard and Hart finalist is going to provide a bigger impact on the team results.

That maturation of the 3 Amigo's from 19/20 year old not now 6 years in the league, entering their primes should increase team expectations beyond what was already achieved when they were still young and inexperienced.