Post-Game Talk: Leafs Eliminated.

[Dragao6]

Anyone else still watches hockey?

 

[ToneDog]

The self-inflicted wounds are the hardest to overcome. With a clean sheet and some cap relief, I don’t think he does things the same way. I think he can build a competitive team that could consistently win 2 or 3 rounds.

Does he do it with Toronto or elsewhere?

How can you bring Dubas back after he pays to dump Mrazek (Hawks thank you for Petr helping with their tank) and his answer is Matt Murray ?? Ritchie, Foligno, Rittich, Kerfoot, Barrie, Jumbo, Vesey, Malgin x2, Kubel, Simmonds for 3 years over Perry, Jarnkrok for 4 years over Acciari, 1st to dump Marleau, the overpays to the petit 4, Hutch, Soup, Hyman, Mikheyev, Sandy, Clifford.

We have #28 pick and a couple of late picks. Our GM will be picking his nose draft weekend.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

 

[Nineteen67]

How can you bring Dubas back after he pays to dump Mrazek (Hawks thank you for Petr helping with their tank) and his answer is Matt Murray ?? Ritchie, Foligno, Rittich, Kerfoot, Barrie, Jumbo, Vesey, Malgin x2, Kubel, Simmonds for 3 years over Perry, Jarnkrok for 4 years over Acciari, 1st to dump Marleau, the overpays to the petit 4, Hutch, Soup, Hyman, Mikheyev, Sandy, Clifford.

We have #28 pick and a couple of late picks. Our GM will be picking his nose draft weekend.

Lots of self-inflicted wounds, no doubt, but they‘ve spent $25+ million training him and maybe he already has some irons in the fire in terms of trading the core and replacing the coach.

Doesn’t matter who the GM is, the task is to free up cap space, build a defence, draft resources and replace the dead weight and that will take a couple of years.

 

[ToneDog]

Lots of self-inflicted wounds, no doubt, but they‘ve spent $25+ million training him and maybe he already has some irons in the fire in terms of trading the core and replacing the coach.

Doesn’t matter who the GM is, the task is to free up cap space, build a defence, draft resources and replace the dead weight and that will take a couple of years.

Sorry, the guy is not the GM to make any major trades. You want to risk he makes another Kadri trade for 16, 34 or 88 ??

The guy gave in to the demands of a first plus a 4th for Foligno.
Conceded to taking Murray for 3/4 of his cap hit when Dorion would not budge on taking on more than 1/4.
Conceded to the Kings when they wanted Durzi over Lily.

This team needs a fresh set of eyes who can make objective decisions. I mean Dubas promised Nylander not to trade him while he was here. Sorry, Dubas has reached the end of the road here. Punt him.

 

[Nineteen67]

Sorry, the guy is not the GM to make any major trades. You want to risk he makes another Kadri trade for 16, 34 or 88 ??

The guy gave in to the demands of a first plus a 4th for Foligno.
Conceded to taking Murray for 3/4 of his cap hit when Dorion would not budge on taking on more than 1/4.
Conceded to the Kings when they wanted Durzi over Lily.

This team needs a fresh set of eyes who can make objective decisions. I mean Dubas promised Nylander not to trade him while he was here. Sorry, Dubas has reached the end of the road here. Punt him.

All depends on the other options. There are a lot worse than him.

 

[ToneDog]

All depends on the other options. There are a lot worse than him.

Odds are very good there are better.

 

[Mess]

The Leafs fighting all year for home ice and then going 1 - 5 in the playoffs at Scotiabank Arena was really bad and inexcusable.

Firstly, your own coach even with have coaching advantages and a home with a cheering crowd can't coach and win games.

Second, it shows how little regular season mattered in the standings to finish ahead of the Florida teams when they won 5 of the 6 games in your Arena.

Third, also this might factor into Ownership's decisions on what to do with Coach and GM because sending your own fans home disappointed hurts more when they attend in person with their hard earned money, then watching road games and with Ownership with season tickets also likely in the building attending the event and evaluating the team and the direction it is going will have a greater impact when viewed in person.

I past seasons the Leafs only offered 4 home game playoff receipts when losing in round #1 in 7 games and this year they offered up 6 total buy nearly getting swept in round #2.

 

[PromisedLand]

Anyone else still watches hockey?

I used to but

1) I don't really want to give this league any of my time or money for all the WWE crap that is allowed (the 2nd goal was in for teh leafs, Jankrok's stick held nothing called on the OT goal, etc...)

2) yes the point above makes me mad but things that really and absolutely piss me off are dubas, keefe, shanahan, marner, tavares, matthews, holl, giordano etc. so am absolutely disgusted by these clowns

so i haven't watched any games yet since these morons got eliminated.

historically, i've continues to watch hockey whehther leafs are playing or not; this season am not sure i want to because of both 1 and 2 above.

TBD if i'd get to watching any this season

 

[Darcy Tucker]

My usual routine is take a hockey break for a bit and watch the Stanley Cup finals just because I love hockey that much.

This year it's going to hurt more knowing how easily it could have been the Leafs making it that far. Not sure what I'll do now.

For some reason being eliminated in the 2nd round feels way different than a 1st round exit. I don't feel like following along the entire season was a complete waste.

The optics of losing to Tampa would have been way worse. They eliminated a team that had been to the finals 3 seasons in a row. The Leafs did something.

 

[LeafLoyalist]

I don't think that is what people should get pissed off about. That was kind of at the end of the play.

View attachment 708305

That stick you see there belonging to a Leaf? Rielly's. That play is still very much alive and that is more of a goal than the Perry one in the first series.

That stick by Reilly is also the cause of the goalies pad being inside the net, Florida challenges and NO Goal due to GI, still don’t win. Heck this is why Leafs couldn’t win 4 games in a row to beat the 8th playoff team. Damn league damn bettman damn refs damn parros damn the ice is too slippery damn it all

 

[LeafLoyalist]

No idea what a defensemen is supposed to do here. If Gudas isn't holding the stuck, he doesn't get off the shot or has to at least go around him.

Yes let’s blame the refs for given the Panthers a 3v2 with a forward covering, where is the other defenceman going deep into the zone in OT in a do or die game? No discipline, Toronto was actually on a 3v2 and puck carrier got smothered on the boards losing the puck, 2 leafs collide in front of the net, oreilly lilighren and acciari was the one who lost the puck, not sure I want my d jumping in with that forward group on the ice, poor decisions poor coaching, the 1 sec tug on the stick hardly prevents that shot from cousins. We keep trying to shed blame from this group for our own therapy, they need to stop putting themselves in this position, need stability behind the bench and management, a seriousness that this group doesn’t have, Tavares is great but not a leader, you need a leader who is going to hold players accountable, Tavares can’t because he doesn’t have the fight in him.

After game 2 Tavares should have laid out, go to the media and call everyone out including himself, game 3 was the true Toronto maple leafs, game 4 was a no consequence game so what they won 1 game, they weren’t going to get 4 wins, Florida wouldn’t let that happen, their coach ripped them 5 weeks ago in this very arena, didn’t care about the media. What happened in October when a certain coach called out certain stars

 

[IPS]

The refs being bad and Toronto being a bad team can be treated as two different debates.

Holy f*** does logic just completely evade some people.

 

[LeafLoyalist]

The refs being bad and Toronto being a bad team can be treated as two different debates.

Holy f*** does logic just completely evade some people.

Very true but if you only bring up bad reffing examples when it’s against your team it can be interpreted as excuses and blame as to why your team loses. There are plenty of bad calls every game on both sides of the puck, Leaf fans use it as excuses as league and bettman is against them, only see it one way… it’s immature

 

[leafsfan5]

The leafs 100% deserved to lose this series, but man it really pisses me off that we lost that game directly due to a penalty that wasn't called

Jarnkrok's stick being held fundamentally changed the play and allowed Cousins to score

 

[IPS]

Very true but if you only bring up bad reffing examples when it’s against your team it can be interpreted as excuses and blame as to why your team loses. There are plenty of bad calls every game on both sides of the puck, Leaf fans use it as excuses as league and bettman is against them, only see it one way… it’s immature

And there comes logical fallacy #2 - poisoning the well.

Logic evades the weak once again.

 

[LeafLoyalist]

And there comes logical fallacy #2 - poisoning the well.

Logic evades the weak once again.

it’s not complicated, it’s as simple as can be. I can bring up 10 examples of bad reffing in favour of Toronto but I would look like a traitor a fool. Tell me I’m wrong

 

[theTTC]

Why are you listing a cupless playoff dud like Clark on there? Is a 60 point pace in the playoffs stepping up as long as you hit someone?

This take is so vapid and simplistic it actually hurts to have read it.

 

[IPS]

it’s not complicated, it’s as simple as can be. I can bring up 10 examples of bad reffing in favour of Toronto but I would look like a traitor a fool. Tell me I’m wrong

You can do what you want.

Someone bringing up bad reffing does not mean they're some angry Leafs fan being a victim about the league allegedly f***ing them over. Some of us are just interested in the debate itself but always get swarmed with posters like you "Weak Leaf fan just making excuses for the team!" I criticize the team 100x more than I criticize the refs.

And why can't bad reffing just be one of the reasons they lost? Somehow it always gets misrepresented as you just blaming the refs entirely and excusing the team.

 

[Stephen]

The Leafs fighting all year for home ice and then going 1 - 5 in the playoffs at Scotiabank Arena was really bad and inexcusable.

Firstly, your own coach even with have coaching advantages and a home with a cheering crowd can't coach and win games.

Second, it shows how little regular season mattered in the standings to finish ahead of the Florida teams when they won 5 of the 6 games in your Arena.

Third, also this might factor into Ownership's decisions on what to do with Coach and GM because sending your own fans home disappointed hurts more when they attend in person with their hard earned money, then watching road games and with Ownership with season tickets also likely in the building attending the event and evaluating the team and the direction it is going will have a greater impact when viewed in person.

I past seasons the Leafs only offered 4 home game playoff receipts when losing in round #1 in 7 games and this year they offered up 6 total buy nearly getting swept in round #2.

Whatever motivational and psychological buttons Keefe needed to press, it was clear he wasn't capable of pressing the right ones, and the home record was just shameful. Though you can also make the cliched argument that the great teams coach themselves via leadership core come playoff time, so there's a self-starting element to the team that needed to be there, that wasn't always there.

On the other, other hand, you can really get a sense of Keefe's mistiming and arbitrariness when it comes to trust in players.

Game 1 Tampa, he's line matching the first shifts of the series en route to a blowout loss. What are you saying to your star players that they can't go out vs a checking line before anything has gone wrong?

Game 2 Florida, his big lines have a complete meltdown in 66 seconds of play to blow a 2-1 lead. Did we need to be rolling out the big guns or did we need to manage a push?

Game 3 Florida, why is the checking line out to start OT? Is it not a message to your Big Guns that you don't trust them to make a center ice FO win and create a scoring chance?

A guy like Justin Holl can go from a health scratch to playing 2nd or 3rd highest minutes in an elimination game shows me that lack of hierarchical organization.

A guy like Gustafsson can score a goal in a series where you're getting no production whatsoever and be a healthy scratch again playing 11F 7D.

Not to nitpick, but while I agree with the decision to play Woll ahead of Murray as a 50/50 decision, you could argue that from a process POV they threw the book out the window and we're just run by a couple of cowboys.

I'm not a Matt Murray fan, never understood why he was acquired in the first place. But if the notion was he would be our veteran playoff goalie wild card, why exactly was Woll the backup when Sammy was hurt? If the organization saw something worth acquiring in Murray, would they not have had the faith to have him on standby for this exact scenario? You have a $4.7 million contingency you went out and got, and didn't have the confidence in process to let him into the series. That just shows me anxious, back and forth thinking that's appropriate for internet chatter, but not coaching/managing a team.

 

[JKG33]

I'm not part of the fan club but I can see the good he's done along with acknowledging the mistakes and in part, the explanation behind them.

You know, one crow thread is as bad as another and really exemplifies the point I made in another post that there's a faction of fans whose approach undermines the culture of the club; Primes it for our opportunistic and insane media.

I don't know if the team is "shitty" so much as Dubas' myopia when it comes to his friend deploying the good assets into his baffling systems at nonsensical points in the game.

But lay off the fans...Good night: They just lost too you know.

ITM, I want to preface by saying this rant isn't directed at you, but simply the points you brought up and why I am the way that I am:



The thing is, I called all of this happening the moment Dubas was hired. 5 years ago I knew this nerd would come in, instill an entitlement culture, and bring in the wrong type of players. I knew Matthews, Marner, and Nylander didn't have the it factor for the playoffs. For Tavares he'd already proven that during his career with the Isles.

Instead of bringing in proven winners to correct their ways, they brought in career losers like Marleau (pre-Dubas), Thornton, Spezza, and Giordano. Those guys have a combined 0 Stanley Cups despite their long careers. Don't get me wrong, I think those guys did teach the kids about life in the national league, but they did nothing to help them realize the mentality it takes to win.

Dubas was incapable of bringing in proper bottom 6ers. Instead focusing on more of the same cookie cutter AAAA players - those too skilled for the AHL, yet not gritty enough for an NHL bottom 6. Yet look at some of the cast-offs like Verhaeghe and Marchment. Not good enough for Dubas' bottom 6, but good enough to be important players on teams still in the playoffs. Funny how that worked out.

This also shows in his draft. Hindsight aside, there was literally 0 reason to draft Amirov, a small skill winger, over Schenider who was exactly what this team needed. A strong, physical, responsible, potential top 2 RD. No excuses for that massive miss.

Despite what everyone says about the defence, he failed to bring in a top pairing guy. Only more of the same #3-4 types like Muzzin, Brodie, McCabe, Schenn. Great players on their own, but none of them should be a teams #2. Pietrangelo allegedly wanred to come here, but Dubas mismanaged the cap so poorly he couldnt even make that work.

After all this you'd think he'd be able to identify goaltending, but nope. He walked away from the best goalie this team's had in 15ish years - Andersen. He acquired SOO alumn Campbell, who I will admit I thought would be the starter eventually, unfortunately I was right. He continued to dumpster dive, bringing in Mrazek (paid to get rid of), Murray (will need to pay to get rid of) and Samsonov (A would be RFA discarded by his former team for immaturity and playoff failure). 5 years later as the dust settles, Joseph Woll (a Lou draft pick), appears to be the king of shit mountain.

Yet failure after failure, Dubas continued to double and even triple down, building things his way. A good chunk of the fanbase was brainwashed by regular season "success" (I use the term success loosely) that included only 1 division banner... in the worst division this league has seen since the late 60's expansion.

Sure, Dubas finally brought in some proven winners in ROR and Schenn. But it was too little too late. The Bieber 3 are all in their mid 20's having been coddled the last 5 years, they're not about to change their ways when they know they can cry and Dubas bends over backwards to.please them. Two late season pending UFAs aren't going to change the entitlement culture in a couple months, that's an unreasonable ask.

So where am I going with all of this? For 5 years I predicted almost every single one of these points with nearly 100% accuracy (right down to Schenn being one of the best d-men on the team). And every single time I was met with hatred and disdain. My allegiance was questioned. Oh well I can't possibly be a real fan if I disagree with management. Oh no that just can't be so. Well guess what, I can, and unlike Dubas, I did.

Then when this group finally won a round against a battered and broken Tampa Bay Lightning, the parade was planned. Suddenly these last 4 years of me being right were out the window. Dubas did it, he won the Stanley Cup. The one time I was wrong, a crow eating thread was made. And guess what? It expired faster than a glass of milk on a hot summer day. This team proved me right yet again vs Florida. After years of being treated with disdain, you bet I'm throwing that back in their faces. The only high road I'll take is saying that what I truly think would be against forum rules. I'll let the limited imaginations of the Kyle Dubas Fan Club take over there.

 

[ITM]

ITM, I want to preface by saying this rant isn't directed at you, but simply the points you brought up and why I am the way that I am:



The thing is, I called all of this happening the moment Dubas was hired. 5 years ago I knew this nerd would come in, instill an entitlement culture, and bring in the wrong type of players. I knew Matthews, Marner, and Nylander didn't have the it factor for the playoffs. For Tavares he'd already proven that during his career with the Isles.

Instead of bringing in proven winners to correct their ways, they brought in career losers like Marleau, Thornton, Spezza, and Giordano. Those guys have a combined 0 Stanley Cups despite their long careers. Don't get me wrong, I think those guys did teach the kids about life in the national league, but they did nothing to help them realize the mentality it takes to win.

Dubas was incapable of bringing in proper bottom 6ers. Instead focusing on more of the same cookie cutter AAAA players - those too skilled for the AHL, yet not gritty enough for an NHL bottom 6. Yet look at some of the cast-offs like Verhaeghe and Marchment. Not good enough for Dubas' bottom 6, but good enough to be important players on teams still in the playoffs. Funny how that worked out.

This also shows in his draft. Hindsight aside, there was literally 0 reason to draft Amirov, a small skill winger, over Schenider who was exactly what this team needed. A strong, physical, responsible, potential top 2 RD. No excuses for that massive miss.

Despite what everyone says about the defence, he failed to bring in a top pairing guy. Only more of the same #3-4 types like Muzzin, Brodie, McCabe, Schenn. Great players on their own, but none of them should be a teams #2. Pietrangelo allegedly wanred to come here, but Dubas mismanaged the cap so poorly he couldnt even make that work.

After all this you'd think he'd be able to identify goaltending, but nope. He walked away from the best goalie this team's had in 15ish years - Andersen. He acquired SOO alumn Campbell, who I will admit I thought would be the starter eventually, unfortunately I was right. He continued to dumpster dive, bringing in Mrazek (paid to get rid of), Murray (will need to pay to get rid of) and Samsonov (A would be RFA discarded by his former team for immaturity and playoff failure). 5 years later as the dust settles, Joseph Woll (a Lou draft pick), appears to be the king of shit mountain.

Yet failure after failure, Dubas continued to double and even triple down, building things his way. A good chunk of the fanbase was brainwashed by regular season "success" (I use the term success loosely) that included only 1 division banner... in the worst division this league has seen since the late 60's expansion.

Sure, Dubas finally brought in some proven winners in ROR and Schenn. But it was too little too late. The Bieber 3 are all in their mid 20's having been coddled the last 5 years, they're not about to change their ways when they know they can cry and Dubas bends over backwards to.please them. Two late season pending UFAs aren't going to change the entitlement culture in a couple months, that's an unreasonable ask.

So where am I going with all of this? For 5 years I predicted almost every single one of these points with nearly 100% accuracy (right down to Schenn being one of the best d-men on the team). And every single time I was met with hatred and disdain. My allegiance was questioned. Oh well I can't possibly be a real fan if I disagree with management. Oh no that just can't be so. Well guess what, I can, and unlike Dubas, I did.

Then when this group finally won a round against a battered and broken Tampa Bay Lightning, the parade was planned. Suddenly these last 4 years of me being right were out the window. Dubas did it, he won the Stanley Cup. The one time I was wrong, a crow eating thread was made. And guess what? It expired faster than a glass of milk on a hot summer day. This team proved me right yet again vs Florida. After years of being treated with disdain, you bet I'm throwing that back in their faces. The only high road I'll take is saying that what I truly think would be against forum rules. I'll let the limited imaginations of the Kyle Dubas Fan Club take over there.

You certainly highlight a number of sound observations.

 

[IPS]

The thing is, I called all of this happening the moment Dubas was hired. 5 years ago I knew this nerd would come in, instill an entitlement culture, and bring in the wrong type of players. I knew Matthews, Marner, and Nylander didn't have the it factor for the playoffs. For Tavares he'd already proven that during his career with the Isles.

Instead of bringing in proven winners to correct their ways, they brought in career losers like Marleau, Thornton, Spezza, and Giordano.

Already have to stop you right there.

It was Lou who brought in Marleau and Babcock who overplayed him to all f***. And this was all before the big 3 were "coddled" their entire careers by Dubas.

 

[JKG33]

Already have to stop you right there.

It was Lou who brought in Marleau and Babcock who overplayed him to all f***. And this was all before the big 3 were "coddled" their entire careers by Dubas.

Ok great. So Dubas still brought in 3/4 of them, I'll edit for accuracy.

 

[IPS]

Ok great. So Dubas still brought in 3/4 of them, I'll edit for accuracy.

Still kind of puts a hole in your idea of Dubas being the inexperienced dope bringing in a loser to teach the core 4 their "loser ways".

I'm guessing there's a lot of these slight errors in your opinions over the years which makes your all-knowing prophecy of Dubas' failures look less impressive. But don't let me get in the way of that, continue on.