Post-Game Talk: Leafs complete their annual October punking by LA

[JT AM da real deal]

Keefe, Marner discuss the top line's lack of production at 5-on-5​

Maple Leafs forwards Mitch Marner and Auston Matthews have just three combined 5v5 goals and seven combined 5v5 points so far this season. Matthews is ranked third among forwards in expected goals at 5-on-5, but Marner is near the bottom of the list, ranking 169th, well behind the likes of John Tavares, William Nylander, Calle Jarnkrok and even Matthew Knies.

Matthews has scored just one goal since his back-to-back hat tricks to start the season, and has not scored a 5-on-5 goal since game two against the Minnesota Wild and Marner has not been any better, recording just 2 goals on the season, with his only 5-on-5 goal coming against the Dallas Stars last week.

Last night against the LA Kings, the Leafs were dominated in all aspects of the game and struggled to generate any sustained offensive pressure or successive scoring chances leading to an eventual 4-1 loss on home ice. Following the loss, Marner was asked about the struggles he and Matthews are experiencing at 5-on-5 and admitted he isn't doing enough to help Matthews get open.

DD is da best .. when he says sometimes it is good to waste one here and there .. sometimes a slash, sometimes a board, sometimes an errant shot, sometimes blast one off tenders mask, sometimes rag doll someone .. DD is old school hockey luv it .. keeps everyone on their toes

 

[myleafs]

Trying isn’t probably the right word. Some guys just don’t have it in them. Marner is a great point producer, but doesn’t seem to have that extra gear when it’s needed. Willy seems to be able to turn it on when he wants to. Some are just regular season heroes that don’t have the strength to work through it when the game gets faster

An analogy a buddy of mine used which I thought was pretty good using a golf term....drive for show putt for dough. We are flashy and it can look pretty when it is working but when it isnt....we dont seem to have any other way of winning. Our team seems way too happy with themselves when its working and seemingly get caught up in their own awesomeness and inevitably it bites them in the ass.

I wouldnt say Ive been a Keefe supporter but I was more than ready to give him a chance without Dubas around. But what I am seeing is the same game plan along with a stubborn lack of creativity as always and the same lack of aggression from the team as always so Im souring on him pretty quickly. I dont know one person who doesnt see that M&M should be split up but he just refuses to try something different other than changing up the 3rd wheel for another 3rd wheel. This tells me he doesnt have any other ideas which isnt a slight on him but not the person I want driving the bus. I dont think he has what it takes to put this team over the top.

I want to be positive and I want to believe but so far this team looks like the same team as ever and we all know how that ends.

 

[Nineteen67]

Drew Doughty issues a warning to the Leafs before Tuesday's game; and it worked like a charm​

The Maple Leafs were absolutely embarrassed on home ice last night by the Los Angeles Kings, there's just no two ways about it. While the Leafs outshot the Kings 30-27 in the contest, it was the Kings who dictated the pace of play, forced more turnovers and capitalized on their chances. At one point, the fans in attendance were even booing the Leafs no home ice.

The Kings came into Toronto with the right mindset, to capitalize on a team who had their guard down upon returning home after a successful 5-game road trip. The Kings had their way with the Leafs and it may have all started with some pre-game comments made by London, Ontario native Drew Doughty.

Prior to the start of last night's game, Doughty had met with the media in Toronto to discuss the game. Among the questions he was asked was about the Leafs' top players adapting to new penalty killing roles. He was probed for comments about Matthews and Nylander being added to the PK in hopes of creating some scoring chances while down a man. Doughty, completely unphased, took the opportunity to send a message to the Leafs, rather than answering the question.

"You gotta be aware... but my job doesn't change. If they're in the lane I'm going to shoot just as hard. Sometimes it's good to waste a puck off someone's shin pad. It's part of the game."

View attachment 761197

That’s a hockey player mentality.

 

[myleafs]

I'd rather have Marner at 15M than Reaves at 700k. I wouldn't even play Reaves if his cap hit was 0.

Marner has his personal performance issues but he's a world class player and the thought that you'd rather have Reaves than Marner is just... ok dude.

Marner at 15 milly over Reaves at 700k? jesus.....like I get what your saying but holy moly.

 

[Nineteen67]

DD is da best .. when he says sometimes it is good to waste one here and there .. sometimes a slash, sometimes a board, sometimes an errant shot, sometimes blast one off tenders mask, sometimes rag doll someone .. DD is old school hockey luv it .. keeps everyone on their toes

Me too.

 

[Nineteen67]

The issue is not with the core (minority opinion) more so what is built around them.

They haven’t been perfect but outside of the habs series M&M have been good - are they also supposed to do 3rd and 4th liners job?

The problem is the coaching. Anyone think this core/team would yield the same results with Jon Cooper as the hc?

I don’t know if Cooper is responsible for TB playing like a pack, or the leadership decided and he just keeps them accountable. However it happened, it was key component to their success.

 

[Apex Predator]

Are we really blaming Reaves for the teams struggle?

 

[Aloysius]

The game demonstrates what this squad has already demonstrated - give them an excuse to fail and they will take advantage of it. Goalied, 3 in 5 or 5 in 7, b2b, return home from trip, injury, etc. In other words, they don't rise to challenges - be it adversity or higher intensity play. I blame bad coaching for this because the system is too constrictive. Everyone has to morph their game into the role required by the system. Reaves can't do the things Reaves does because there is no role in Keefe's system for it. Same for Bert, Domi. Good coaches get the best out of each player. Keefe is not a good coach because he requires his role players to play roles they are not able to play.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marner 4 points in the last 7 games.
Matthews 5 points in the last 7 games.

These two in particular, just haven't been good enough. Marner... I don't know, he's just not playing like Marner of the past... no idea why. The passing isn't good, the drive isn't good.

If you pay this collection that much, they have to become clutch players, and they simply aren't so far.

I get it, just one game.. on the end of a long road trip, but these two in particular, we need more from them, on a consistent basis.

Reaves just isn't a hockey player. Bertuzzi hasn't been near good enough...

That Boston game is pretty important... Boston will be without two of the top four D... so we better show up for that one.

Even worse if you remove the PP - Mitch has 1 goal and Matty has 2 assists, and they're both -4.

 

[Fogelhund]

Even worse if you remove the PP - Mitch has 1 goal and Matty has 2 assists, and they're both -4.

For sure, their 5v5 play has been atrocious.

 

[rumman]

And it ain't Marner either, Mitch for all of his faults has historically been a name on the front kind of guy, as long as the other guys are too.

Problem is of course, and believe me I'd tell you, but it can't be said aloud.

come on, say it out loud, some might even agree..........

 

[myleafs]

The game demonstrates what this squad has already demonstrated - give them an excuse to fail and they will take advantage of it. Goalied, 3 in 5 or 5 in 7, b2b, return home from trip, injury, etc. In other words, they don't rise to challenges - be it adversity or higher intensity play. I blame over-coaching for this because the system is too constrictive. Everyone has to morph their game into the role required by the system. Reaves can't do the things Reaves does because there is no role in Keefe's system for it. Same for Bert, Domi. Good coaches get the best out of each role player. Keefe is not a good coach.

Rare that I say this but I think I agree with everything you said here especially about Keefes systems and how players fit or dont fit into it. Reminds of Babs when Barrie was brought in and told to abandon what had made him successful. Or when Keefe told Foligno not to stick up for his teammate and fight and my guess is that Reaves has been told to tone down his heavy hits etc. Cookie cutter coaching....stack the top line when you dont know what to do...overplay the top guys when you dont know what to do etc.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The way 88 is going Im assuming we will have 4x 11mil players soon enough.

No, no, no - Mitch is only at 10.9.

DD is da best .. when he says sometimes it is good to waste one here and there .. sometimes a slash, sometimes a board, sometimes an errant shot, sometimes blast one off tenders mask, sometimes rag doll someone .. DD is old school hockey luv it .. keeps everyone on their toes

Paul Henderson's dad told him to always fire the first shot at the goalie's head.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

I don't understand how anyone thinks it's a good idea or how they can't see how bad he is. I'm sure he's a great guy and fun to be around but it's embarrassing to think they need to troll around a terrible player that isn't doing anything because he might be able to throw a punch once every 20 games. He can't even f***ing skate...

We have to be one of the few teams carrying a useless player and handicapping our lineup for that useless player when there are multiple players ten times the player he is to help.

He doesn’t need to be good, “it’s not his role”

 

[puckie]

The game demonstrates what this squad has already demonstrated - give them an excuse to fail and they will take advantage of it. Goalied, 3 in 5 or 5 in 7, b2b, return home from trip, injury, etc. In other words, they don't rise to challenges - be it adversity or higher intensity play. I blame bad coaching for this because the system is too constrictive. Everyone has to morph their game into the role required by the system. Reaves can't do the things Reaves does because there is no role in Keefe's system for it. Same for Bert, Domi. Good coaches get the best out of each player. Keefe is not a good coach because he requires his role players to play roles they are not able to play.

It is so true. Great coaches create a system based upon the strengths and weaknesses of their players. Mediocre and bad coaches force players into their system.

 

[egd27]

This isn't a coaching issue. The additions just haven't worked and thats on the GM for bringing them in. Keefe also has limited options on the PK. Another coach isn't going to make Reaves into an NHL player

We've had something like 30 "additions that just haven't worked" since this coach has been in place. I suppose that could just be a coincidence, but I have my doubts that's all it is,

 

[Machinae]

Wrong thread. They stunk.

 

[ACC1224]

We've had something like 30 "additions that just haven't worked" since this coach has been in place. I suppose that could just be a coincidence, but I have my doubts that's all it is,

It may be time to see if the Coach has 'passed all the tests'.

 

[80shockeywasbuns]

Maybe, but who can tell?

Just because they play a rougher style doesn't mean they have more "will".

This is my annoyance with this argument. The players clearly care, they clearly try, but people think they don't try enough... but how does anyone know how much they are trying?

fans will usually grasp at abstract shit to explain over/under performance that can just be explained by natural variance

 

[CapspaceKiller]

They did stink, nobody was good in this.

Typical and predictable mediocre October is done and of course the predictable "fans" are out to scream the sky is falling.

 

[Stephen]

I'd rather have Marner at 15M than Reaves at 700k. I wouldn't even play Reaves if his cap hit was 0.

Marner has his personal performance issues but he's a world class player and the thought that you'd rather have Reaves than Marner is just... ok dude.

I would rather have neither, come to think of it. Marner’s game is frustrating and there are flaws where you don’t want to see the Leafs overpay.

I think this sums it up well.

"If our core 4 doesn't dominate and score, our bottom six forwards are NOT GOOD ENOUGH because we lack the cap room to hire better players....Our D-group is not nearly good enough either."

I have low expectations for this season. Life is easier that way.

Leaf cultural issues may go deeper than that. The team has cycled a lot of guys in and out of support roles over the past five seasons in the middle 6, top 9, bottom 6 however you slice it. And it always feels like they have some version of the bystander effect where these one year wonders hesitate to really take ownership of being a Leaf because the Big 4 takes up so much oxygen.

Guys like Bertuzzi, Domi, Reaves, Klingberg all look like they’re tiptoeing around someone else’s room. Just here for a quiet cameo. When the big guns are firing no problem. When they’re not interested no one else can assert themselves.

 

[Stephen]

Maybe, but who can tell?

Just because they play a rougher style doesn't mean they have more "will".

This is my annoyance with this argument. The players clearly care, they clearly try, but people think they don't try enough... but how does anyone know how much they are trying?

They likely have more will because they play at a higher pace with disregard for their own physical well-being and have a track record of real success. That’s how you can tell a group has will vs one that has a questionable reputation. Actions.

 

[Stephen]

Kings are are big strong team that use their size to effectively reduce the impact of smaller skilled teams like the Leafs.

I was watching the Dallas broadcast a little bit the other night and the Stars colour commentary made the observation the Leafs spend most of their energy trying to get out of their own zone and have nothing left to transition or create offense second period onwards. Pretty damming words from the opposition. They won on the strength of Woll that night along with some split second bang bang offense from the big guns. That blueline is a mushy foundation.

 

[saffronleaf]

Call up Dubas and offer to swap coaches.

And GMs

 

[Canadian Finn]

i see the dubites are no less delusional.