Proposal: leafs and bruins

[garyturner3]

I see a lot of Leaf fans LOL'ing in this thread about Bruin Prospects and Krug not being nearly as good as Gardiner, when in reality the only thing that's really funny is the Leafs as a franchise the last 15 years.

And before I hear anything about Babcock and the Shannaplan being the saviour, the same thing was said when Burke and company were brought in.

And yes, Senyshyn on last year's London Knights would have scored 50 easily. Marner is obviously the better prospect but let's wait until they play in the NHL to decide which of the two have more of an impact.

Great contribution.....

 

[kdog82]

Great contribution.....

Thanks.

 

[pierre gagnon*]

Gardiner would've been the #1 when Orr was playing.

This is the kind of mentality that is typical of HFBoards fanatical ignorance at its best, possibly the worst post ever.

 

[BWDude]

Only 4 people scored more goals than Senyshyn in the OHL last year.

He's truly a fantastic goal scorer, but Marner is clearly the better overall player. His draft slot echoes that sentiment.

Actually if you extrapolate: 39 goals in 57 games = 0.68 gpg * 66 games (the amount Senyshyn played) = 45 goals.

So while not taking anything away from him being a fantastic goal scorer- in the area of game that Marner is not really known for and can definitely improve, he is even then about equal. Not even going to mention everything else.

Of course no-one said they are equal prospects, but it just goes to show the sheer separation between the two. In the best area of Senyshyn is about equal to one of the weaker areas of Marner.

 

[Tim Vezina Thomas]

Actually if you extrapolate: 39 goals in 57 games = 0.68 gpg * 66 games (the amount Senyshyn played) = 45 goals.

So while not taking anything away from him being a fantastic goal scorer- in the area of game that Marner is not really known for and can definitely improve, he is even then about equal. Not even going to mention everything else.

Of course no-one said they are equal prospects, but it just goes to show the sheer separation between the two. In the best area of Senyshyn is about equal to one of the weaker areas of Marner.

Congrats? I said Senyshyn was a fantastic goal scorer (and he is), none of your post changes that and is completely irrelevant.

 

[Tim Vezina Thomas]

I see a lot of Leaf fans LOL'ing in this thread about Bruin Prospects and Krug not being nearly as good as Gardiner, when in reality the only thing that's really funny is the Leafs as a franchise the last 15 years.

And before I hear anything about Babcock and the Shannaplan being the saviour, the same thing was said when Burke and company were brought in.

And yes, Senyshyn on last year's London Knights would have scored 50 easily. Marner is obviously the better prospect but let's wait until they play in the NHL to decide which of the two have more of an impact.

What purpose does this post serve?

This thread needed to die yesterday.

 

[BruinDust]

Lmfao. Gardiner would instantly be your best defensman.
Gardiner is so underrated its ridiculous. Babcock has transformed the kid

Gardiner is so over-rated it's ridiculous.

He's not a good D-man, he skates very well, that's about it. His hockey sense and IQ are severely lacking. If he had any, he could be a top end guy, but he doesn't. He'll give you decent puck-moving, about 30 pts, and lousy defense.

Leafs fans are still buying the Brian Burke hype about Gardiner from 2012.

 

[pierre gagnon*]

Actually if you extrapolate: 39 goals in 57 games = 0.68 gpg * 66 games (the amount Senyshyn played) = 45 goals.

So while not taking anything away from him being a fantastic goal scorer- in the area of game that Marner is not really known for and can definitely improve, he is even then about equal. Not even going to mention everything else.

Of course no-one said they are equal prospects, but it just goes to show the sheer separation between the two. In the best area of Senyshyn is about equal to one of the weaker areas of Marner.

You also have to take into account who Marners played with on a stacked team. Senyshyn's team was no where near the level the London knights had. There 3rd line checking cente Cliff Pu could have been SSM top line center. Having a bunch of rookies on your team is different then the all star players Marner was surrounded by. Look at the 3 top point getters for each team, London 121, 116, 107 vs SSM 74, 68, 65, Kinda of the same argument leaf fans are using with Gardner playing on a weaker team.

Put Senyshyn with an elite playmaker like Marner and he easily scores over 50, thats only 5 more, possible he scores more. Still Marner is the better player right now, Senyshyn's game will translate to the NHL very well I think. He is already 6'2" and over 200 lbs and one of the fastest from that draft year. Like I said before Leafs need a dee back as Gardiner is a valued #3, Bruins have Krug its a wash. Senyshyn is projected to be a scoring winger and does not need to provide assists. With Pastrnak and Heinen that is going be a very good RW core for the next decade. Bruins only deal prospects for a top 2 deeman, Sweeney has a plan and moving the new youth is not it. I would like Gardiner and think he is good but this is not going work. Teams are better keeping each of there guys in this.

 

[Morgs]

Gardiner is so underrated it's ridiculous.

He's a good D-man, he skates amazingly, and does so much more. His hockey sense is excellent, and his IQ is solid af. He is a top end guy, a great puck mover, and scores 30 points on a team that couldn't put up points, with great 5v5 defense. Elite advanced stats.

People are still thinking about how he was under Carlyle in 2012 and hearing about the Burke hype so they constantly just blow him off without a second thought. He's vastly improved over the years and would easily be the best defenseman on the bruins.

Weird how it makes sense when you literally say the opposite of what you said.

 

[Tim Vezina Thomas]

Gardiner is so underrated it's ridiculous.

He's a good D-man, he skates amazingly, and does so much more. His hockey sense is excellent, and his IQ is solid af. He is a top end guy, a great puck mover, and scores 30 points on a team that couldn't put up points, with great 5v5 defense. Elite advanced stats.

People are still thinking about how he was under Carlyle in 2012 and hearing about the Burke hype so they constantly just blow him off without a second thought. He's vastly improved over the years and would easily be the best defenseman on the bruins.

Weird how it makes sense when you literally say the opposite of what you said.

Oh come on. Easily is a stretch.

Chara is still a top four d man and Krug is as well. If you're protecting your lead and you could choose Gardiner or Chara to send out, I choose Chara 10 times out of 10 still.

I do agree that Gardiner is being underrated by the Bs fans in here.

 

[garyturner3]

Oh come on. Easily is a stretch.

Chara is still a top four d man and Krug is as well. If you're protecting your lead and you could choose Gardiner or Chara to send out, I choose Chara 10 times out of 10 still.

I do agree that Gardiner is being underrated by the Bs fans in here.

Agree with all of this. I think there's a lot of confusion here about people assuming Leaf fans are calling Gardiner elite when they're only saying he has elite advanced stats. Even at Chara's age, he's still Chara and a much more valuable overall d-man IMO. Not everything can be measured by advanced stats and I think most people would agree Gardiner is not in the same class as the truly elite d-man in the league. There's just certain things he does very well and the advanced stats reflect it. If he was elite, he'd be playing 25+ minutes a night and on the top pairing.

But having said that, advanced stats are very meaningful and he wouldn't put up the numbers he's putting up if he was just an average 2nd pairing d-man. My main point with the advanced stats here is to show that he's a well above average 2nd pairing guy and not only because he plays on the Leafs like a lot of people are suggesting. The responses like "Gardiner is not a good d-man" or "Gardiner lacks hockey IQ" or using +/- as your main argument are just sticking your head in the sand and ignoring all the evidence that clearly states Gardiner's true value without bias. These fancy stats aren't opinion, they're fact and in 10 years will be much more readily accepted than they are now. It's like arguing 40 points is better than 50 points when you completely disregard them. If the Leafs ever turn this ship around and become a regular playoff team, fans are quickly going to realize how good Gardiner has become.

 

[BruinDust]

Gardiner is so underrated it's ridiculous.

He's a good D-man, he skates amazingly, and does so much more. His hockey sense is excellent, and his IQ is solid af. He is a top end guy, a great puck mover, and scores 30 points on a team that couldn't put up points, with great 5v5 defense. Elite advanced stats.

People are still thinking about how he was under Carlyle in 2012 and hearing about the Burke hype so they constantly just blow him off without a second thought. He's vastly improved over the years and would easily be the best defenseman on the bruins.

Weird how it makes sense when you literally say the opposite of what you said.

Geez based on this assessment he should of been challenging Doughty for the Norris.

 

[BWDude]

You also have to take into account who Marners played with on a stacked team. Senyshyn's team was no where near the level the London knights had. There 3rd line checking cente Cliff Pu could have been SSM top line center. Having a bunch of rookies on your team is different then the all star players Marner was surrounded by. Look at the 3 top point getters for each team, London 121, 116, 107 vs SSM 74, 68, 65, Kinda of the same argument leaf fans are using with Gardner playing on a weaker team.

Put Senyshyn with an elite playmaker like Marner and he easily scores over 50, thats only 5 more, possible he scores more. Still Marner is the better player right now, Senyshyn's game will translate to the NHL very well I think. He is already 6'2" and over 200 lbs and one of the fastest from that draft year. Like I said before Leafs need a dee back as Gardiner is a valued #3, Bruins have Krug its a wash. Senyshyn is projected to be a scoring winger and does not need to provide assists. With Pastrnak and Heinen that is going be a very good RW core for the next decade. Bruins only deal prospects for a top 2 deeman, Sweeney has a plan and moving the new youth is not it. I would like Gardiner and think he is good but this is not going work. Teams are better keeping each of there guys in this.

It just seems like Bruins fans are trying to downplay the sizable difference between the two. Of course Senyshyn could translate well, and no doubt he's a good goal scorer and prospect but no amount of team difference or otherwise can make up the huge difference in accomplishments and totals.

I also say I would keep Gardiner as we have no use for a winger prospect at this time. Thank you.

 

[Tim Vezina Thomas]

It just seems like Bruins fans are trying to downplay the sizable difference between the two. Of course Senyshyn could translate well, and no doubt he's a good goal scorer and prospect but no amount of team difference or otherwise can make up the huge difference in accomplishments and totals.

I also say I would keep Gardiner as we have no use for a winger prospect at this time. Thank you.

Marner is a double super duper totally awesome prospect, and Senyshyn is only super. Does that make you feel better now? Marner isnt even part of this thread.

 

[Gavy]

I like the way nobody actually said any of those things in this thread.

Saying Senyshen scored more goals than Marner last season is true, I don't get why people have a hard time with that but apparently they do.

Pretty sure no one said any of this.

Although you're right about the prospects, I think a couple could definitely be top pairing d men (not franchise d men though, or even #1s).

Someone said if Sensyshyn was on the Knights, he would score 60 goals which is more than Marner.

People have definitely been saying Gardiner is a bad defenseman (just read the thrrad) and I jokingly said Gardiner was better than Orr.

I also said Krug was #4 and the Bruins just need a #1, 2 and 3 to which someone replied say gb they had all of that in their prospect pool.

Maybe try reading the whole thread before saying no one said these things?

This is the kind of mentality that is typical of HFBoards fanatical ignorance at its best, possibly the worst post ever.

You can't be THAT dense. That was obvious sarcasm

Gardiner is so over-rated it's ridiculous.

He's not a good D-man, he skates very well, that's about it. His hockey sense and IQ are severely lacking. If he had any, he could be a top end guy, but he doesn't. He'll give you decent puck-moving, about 30 pts, and lousy defense.

Leafs fans are still buying the Brian Burke hype about Gardiner from 2012.

Lol ok.

 

[Tim Vezina Thomas]

Someone said if Sensyshyn was on the Knights, he would score 60 goals which is more than Marner.

People have definitely been saying Gardiner is a bad defenseman (just read the thrrad) and I jokingly said Gardiner was better than Orr.

I also said Krug was #4 and the Bruins just need a #1, 2 and 3 to which someone replied say gb they had all of that in their prospect pool.

Maybe try reading the whole thread before saying no one said these things?



You can't be THAT dense. That was obvious sarcasm


Lol ok.

The Bruins have two top four d men, suggesting Chara isnt one is ludicrous, and suggesting Gardiner is better is ludicrous as well. You havent seen Chara play recently if you dont think he is.

The Bruins have plenty of D prospects that could be top four d men, which you likely know nothing about, so why even bring it up? You're opinion is all conjecture.

Senyshyn scored 45 goals on an average team, suggesting he'd score more on a stacked team isnt ridiculous. 60 might be too many, but his statement seemed like obvious hyperbole.

You also said Gardiner is better than Bobby Orr. I mean come on, you've clearly had an agenda this entire thread. Read your responses.

 

[Gavy]

The Bruins have two top four d men, suggesting Chara isnt one is ludicrous, and suggesting Gardiner is better is ludicrous as well. You havent seen Chara play recently if you dont think he is.

The Bruins have plenty of D prospects that could be top four d men, which you likely know nothing about, so why even bring it up? You're opinion is all conjecture.

Senyshyn scored 45 goals on an average team, suggesting he'd score more on a stacked team isnt ridiculous. 60 might be too many, but his statement seemed like obvious hyperbole.

You also said Gardiner is better than Bobby Orr. I mean come on, you've clearly had an agenda this entire thread. Read your responses.

Ive literally said I was being sarcastic with the Orr comment.

Why is it ok for Bruins fans to comment on a player they know nothing about but Leaf fans who supposedly don't know anything can't?

 

[Tim Vezina Thomas]

Ive literally said I was being sarcastic with the Orr comment.

Why is it ok for Bruins fans to comment on a player they know nothing about but Leaf fans who supposedly don't know anything can't?

I never said it was. I've never said Gardiner was "bad."

You said the Bruins had 1 top 4 d man. The Bruins D is bad, but Chara is still a great defender who would easily be a top four d man on a lot of contenders. And Krug is a fantastic 2nd pairing D man.

 

[BruinsBtn]

Ive literally said I was being sarcastic with the Orr comment.

Why is it ok for Bruins fans to comment on a player they know nothing about but Leaf fans who supposedly don't know anything can't?

We did have a chance to watch him in a playoff series, including a Game 7 where he screened his goalie twice on goals and then flailed around hopelessly on the overtime winner.

He's just not a pressure player. He's bad at the start of every season and then plays well in final two months when the Leafs are DOA.

 

[Gavy]

We did have a chance to watch him in a playoff series, including a Game 7 where he screened his goalie twice on goals and then flailed around hopelessly on the overtime winner.

He's just not a pressure player. He's bad at the start of every season and then plays well in final two months when the Leafs are DOA.

Prime example of talking about a player you know nothing about.

" a 22 YEAR OLD dman was bad under a coach(who had the team hitting record breaking lows the next few deasons) during game 7 of the playoffs"

 

[Tim Vezina Thomas]

Prime example of talking about a player you know nothing about.

" a 22 YEAR OLD dman was bad under a coach(who had the team hitting record breaking lows the next few deasons) during game 7 of the playoffs"

I think this is the feeling we all get when you mention anything about the Bruins.

 

[Morgs]

Oh come on. Easily is a stretch.

Chara is still a top four d man and Krug is as well. If you're protecting your lead and you could choose Gardiner or Chara to send out, I choose Chara 10 times out of 10 still.

I do agree that Gardiner is being underrated by the Bs fans in here.

Yeah, I was just making a point because the post I was replying to was so ridiculous. Thanks for being a reasonable poster.

Geez based on this assessment he should of been challenging Doughty for the Norris.

Well I wouldn't go that far, but I mean if you think he's one of the best 3 defenseman in the NHL all the power to you. Let's start a trend for next season together: #GardinerForNorris

 

[Gavy]

I think this is the feeling we all get when you mention anything about the Bruins.

Except I'm not implying an early 20's dman can't get better.

 

[oilerbear]

nope gardiner is one of our two proven top 4 dmen. We won't be trading him unless we add a pick to get a better dmen, or to get a less proven but dmen with higher potential. Not for Senyshen.

look at even goal scoring affect by forwards and Dmen.

Forwards Evg/60 .65
Forwards EVA1/60 .51
Forwards EVA2/60 .41
Dmen EVA2/60 .31
Dmen EVA1/60 .25
Dmen EVg/60 .17

the more directly involved in even offence a dman is the less likely a goal will be scored.

Take the 27 best EVG dmen. (teams #1 EVG D)
the 27th scores 6 EVG
they score a total of 212 EVG

Now take the forwards that score 6 EVG.
that is 272 forwards (teams #1-9 forwards)
they score a total of 3040 EVG

212/3252 = 6.5%

Just love the experts that think Dmen drive even offence.
or
Dman even offence is important.

Just get the forwards the D....... puck!

-quick transition passes.
-rather than skating the puck up.
-it does not let opposition forwards and D to set up for preventing zone entry and limiting HSCA penetration.

We know that the average record to achieve 96 points for the 2nd WC playoff position is.
42W - 28L - 12 SO/OTL

If a teams special team breaks even in PPGF and PPGA
that teams forwards have to out score its EVGA by .30 EVGF/60 to have a chance at a WC playoff spot.

Larsson 1.35 EVGA/60 last year.
that means you need forwards to score 1.66 EVGF/60
300 forwards can out score his defence to have a shot at WC spot.


gardiner
#86 comp
#50 team
#142 EVA/60 D
bottom 30 HSC AD
#146 SA/60 D
#153 D 2.35 GA/60 #6 Dman results
Forwards have to score 2.66 EVGF/60 to have a chance at a wild card spot
Only 68 forwards can outscore his even defence.

Rielly
#1 comp
#162 team one of the 20 hardet comp/teamte situations.
#100 EVA/60 D
Bottom 10 HSCA D
#212 SA/60 D
#211 D 2.68 EVGA/60 #7/8 dman results
Forwards have to score 2.99 EVGF/60 to have a chance at a wild card spot.
only 23 forwards can outscore his even defence.
you need 3 for a line.

This is there performance under babcock!

 

[Currysux*]

Gardiner is so over-rated it's ridiculous.

He's not a good D-man, he skates very well, that's about it. His hockey sense and IQ are severely lacking. If he had any, he could be a top end guy, but he doesn't. He'll give you decent puck-moving, about 30 pts, and lousy defense.

Leafs fans are still buying the Brian Burke hype about Gardiner from 2012.

Was 2012 the last time you watched him? The past year he has made significant improvements. Carlyle held him back. He is only starting to flourish. His defense is good as well. He uses his slating on defense as well as anyone in the league. Idk what your definition of lousy is.