Confirmed with Link: Leafs acquire Dzingel, Lyubushkin from ARI for Ritchie, c.2nd... Dzingel on waivers &claimed

[SeaOfBlue]

A sour two year contract at $2.5M per isn't the end of the world. Just don't make any long term high priced errors.

I thought that in theory, Ritchie made sense. Bruins fans said we would see him as lazy, penalty prone and uninspired. Bruins fans are quite knowledgeable and in this case accurate.

Hindsight is always 20/20, I personally thought it was a solid deal. You can't win them all.

I mean they also thought Foligno was going to be a great addition and he has flopped just as bad for 1.3 mill per year more than Ritchie so...

 

[Leafsfan74]

Their TOI numbers without breaking down special teams looks fairly similar, at least on the year, a few minutes off.

But Holl has definitely been used way over his head - it's not like he excels in his role here. Realistically you want him playing 15-17 on the third pair, but he does spend a ton of time with Muzzin out of necessity, even as he's been outshone by Liljegren.

Muzzin has declined steadily in the last two years, and it's not all him.

Holl's biggest issue is he tries stuff he has no business doing and often gets burned.

Some basic counting stats: Holl has 32 giveaways this year after 41 last year, 25 combined takeaways over the time, that's a horrible ratio, almost 3:1.

Lyubushkin has 28 giveaways and 20 takeaways, far better for a Dman.

A D who will try to get the puck to the right guy to do it, or a guy who will try to carry it out himself mistakes be damned.

I've long thought that Justin Holl's biggest enemy was himself, because a lot of the tools are there;

He has size and uses it, but could use it more.
He has a heavy shot but has trouble getting into good lanes.
He can make a good first pass, but isn't too good on the line.
He's decisive, but doesn't know how to pick his spots.

The only thing he lacks, sadly, is the most important thing of all - he has terrible instincts in both zones.

If Lyubushkin can come in and give a responsible, boring, hard checking 15-17 a game, then Holl doesn't need to be put in situations out of his wheelhouse.

I almost want a Rielly-Brodie top pair and two 'revolving' second pairs built around Sandin and Muzzin on the L side with Lyub-Holl-Liljegren rotating in, with Sandin assuming #3 details until Muzzin gets his head out of his ass.

Brodie, Liljegren, Holl and Lyubushkin on the right side? Is it an elite RHD group, of course not, but I remember when it was Hainsey, Polak, Zaitsev on the right side.

Interesting points. I disagree with Sandin on the second pairing though. Maybe in a year or two, but not today.

 

[GoodNewfieBoy]

I assume this temporarily takes Holl out of the lineup ?

Rielly Brodie
Muzzin Lily
Sandin Russian
Dermott Holl

I hope they are still working on an upgrade next to Muzzin. Russian should be insurance once they find a suitable upgrade because Lily deserves to play

 

[zeke]

They run a more balanced ice time there with Lyubushkin's 15:34 being 7th and Chychrun's 19:37 being top so it's not that huge a swing.

Even strength REL defensive numbers are pretty great:

OZone starts: 31.47
SCA/60 REL: -5.3
HDCA/60 REL: -1.88
xGA/60 REL: -.57

(All three of these lead the team)

It's pretty easy to put up good relative numbers on a horrific team, es0ecially when you're one of the lower minute guys.

 

[garce]

Call me crazy, but I think he could.

The guy is a 2-time 20 goal scorer, including once in just 57 games.

The great thing about the timing of this deal is that the Leafs will get an opportunity to see what he can do over the next month, and still go out and add at the deadline if they want.

I'd imagine that he knocks Spezza or Simmonds out of the lineup -- just to get these guys some rest.

From what I remember from seeing him in Ottawa he’s a speed rush guy, with a pretty good shot and not a playmaker. Maybe worth a look with Tavares and Willy

 

[TiMo15]

I don't justify if it's a good trade or not until be able to watch them play. However, Dubas was able to find a trade partner who took Ritchie bad contract without losing one of the current roster, retain salary or even a prospect and then got two expiring contracts including one stay at home defensemen. It looks good on paper. It's still better then carrying a $2.5m contract into next year while the player got all the opportunities but failed to contribute on the ice before. It frees up that money next year. That's a plus.

 

[meefer]

* Dubas corrects the signing of Ritchie at a low cost, while letting a player who was never going to see the Leaf jersey again have another shot in the show. Reminds me a bit of Leivo.
* A 2nd or 3rd to do so while getting back two players who carry no baggage next year, and one should and the other who might help.
* I now look at our roster and don't see anyone who cannot be moved. Dzingel, to the right team (injury) could be moved for a low pick, an insurance type move.
* Gotta say, I'm impressed. Well done, Kyle.

 

[Scion]

I have the same concern as Jack Han. If Ilya can't make plays with the puck on his stick what good is he to a team that relies on puck management to create and defend. It's the same issue Marincin and Polak had when they played with us.

 

[zeke]

Their TOI numbers without breaking down special teams looks fairly similar, at least on the year, a few minutes off.

A few minutes is all the difference in the world. Holl gets 18 minutes a night at even strength, lyubushkin gets 15:30 - around the same as sandin/lill/dermott I.e. bottom pair minutes.

And this is the first year Lyubushkin had ever received anything close to this much ice time.

And Lyubushkin was limited to those minutes even though he was on the worst team in hockey.

But Holl has definitely been used way over his head - it's not like he excels in his role here. Realistically you want him playing 15-17 on the third pair, but he does spend a ton of time with Muzzin out of necessity, even as he's been outshone by Liljegren.

Muzzin has declined steadily in the last two years, and it's not all him.

Holl's biggest issue is he tries stuff he has no business doing and often gets burned.

Some basic counting stats: Holl has 32 giveaways this year after 41 last year, 25 combined takeaways over the time, that's a horrible ratio, almost 3:1.

Lyubushkin has 28 giveaways and 20 takeaways, far better for a Dman.

A D who will try to get the puck to the right guy to do it, or a guy who will try to carry it out himself mistakes be damned.

I've long thought that Justin Holl's biggest enemy was himself, because a lot of the tools are there;

He has size and uses it, but could use it more.
He has a heavy shot but has trouble getting into good lanes.
He can make a good first pass, but isn't too good on the line.
He's decisive, but doesn't know how to pick his spots.

The only thing he lacks, sadly, is the most important thing of all - he has terrible instincts in both zones.

If Lyubushkin can come in and give a responsible, boring, hard checking 15-17 a game, then Holl doesn't need to be put in situations out of his wheelhouse.

I almost want a Rielly-Brodie top pair and two 'revolving' second pairs built around Sandin and Muzzin on the L side with Lyub-Holl-Liljegren rotating in, with Sandin assuming #3 details until Muzzin gets his head out of his ass.

Brodie, Liljegren, Holl and Lyubushkin on the right side? Is it an elite RHD group, of course not, but I remember when it was Hainsey, Polak, Zaitsev on the right side.

Holl has been a big part of the Leafs being one of the best defenses in hockey the past couple of years.

The idea that a bottom pair guy on the worst team in the league is an upgrade on holl sea a strange one.

The Leafs have been better this year without Bogo and Lyubushkin may not even be as good as bogo.

 

[Nylanderthal]

I imagine it would be Liljegren. That is the easiest move to make us compliant, and Lyubushkin can take Liljegren's spot.

Liljegren is the easy move, but he needs to play.

 

[Ports]

We don't need to send Dzingel down, but I guess if we want to accrue cap, we could risk that he goes through. I doubt the Leafs really care if he gets claimed; he is a decent fill in 4th liner who can take some pressure off of Simmonds, but we have guys on the Marlies (i.e. Robertson and Anderson) who are probably better than him if we give them a chance. However, he gives us an experienced guy who can take a regular NHL shift and if he can regain his magic on a good team, then there is some good upside there.

It would open up some space to gain that pick by being an intermediary at the TDL. Would help us get our 4th round pick back this year.

Will depend if they want to carry 7 defenseman or 13 forwards. Doubt they’ll do both. They won’t send Dermott down because they risk losing him getting claimed. Do they like Dzingel better than Dermott?

 

[Zybalto]

It's pretty easy to put up good relative numbers on a horrific team, es0ecially when you're one of the lower minute guys.

Oh, I know but who knows what we have until he plays here. It would be the same mystery if we paid the motherload for Chychrun (whose differentials were basically the same with and without this guy).

Stay at home physical net clearer was on a ton of folks' lists around here and I like seeing those 95% EV D ratings. Might be another diamond in the ruff a la Bunting/Kampf.

 

[Buds17]

Would you trade Holl for Braun straight up? Both seem pretty equivalent and we get out of Holl's money for next year where maybe it can be spent on Giordano/Subban?

I don't have any strong feelings against it from an on-ice perspective for the rest of this season. The contract uncertainty going into next season is what might give me pause.

 

[Griffin76]

I have the same concern as Jack Han. If Ilya can't make plays with the puck on his stick what good is he to a team that relies on puck management to create and defend. It's the same issue Marincin and Polak had when they played with us.

He's actually good at getting the puck out of the zone. He's not going to dazzle anyone with puck handling skills or anything but it won't be 3 or 4 failed attempts to exit the zone every shift like our great shutdown pairing does. He's going to get the puck to the right guys and then just do his job.

 

[Guy Boucher]

I dont get the top-4 upside part tbh.

This guy is 7th in even strength ice time on one of the worst defenses in hockey - and this year is by far the best of his career.

I would not get hung up on toi on a team that wants to force feed minutes to younger players.

I’m not saying he will definitely fit into the top-4, but there’s a chance. On a team with better structure and surrounded by more puck movers, it will mitigate his weaknesses and allow his strengths to flourish.

Kind of how everyone thought Kampf could only be a 4th liner but on a more structured team and surrounded by fast wingers, he could be a solid 3rd line C with his weakness mitigated and strengths highlighted.

 

[Ports]

Have they?

I agree.

 

[Gallagbi]

From what I remember from seeing him in Ottawa he’s a speed rush guy, with a pretty good shot and not a playmaker. Maybe worth a look with Tavares and Willy

I wonder if they'd ever go something like Dzingle - Spezza - Mik for a 4th line. It's a lot of speed and pursuit on the wings. Dzingle isn't a fighter, but he can play a little feisty

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I have the same concern as Jack Han. If Ilya can't make plays with the puck on his stick what good is he to a team that relies on puck management to create and defend. It's the same issue Marincin and Polak had when they played with us.

the Leafs don't really rely on defensemen to create offense very much. He can do the bare minimum and keep plays alive

 

[BigBlu]

Sorry I missed where you went around asking everyone else how much they've watched him.

There's a chance he actually respects your opinion... take the hint/compliment!lol

 

[Leafsfan74]

I assume this temporarily takes Holl out of the lineup ?

Rielly Brodie
Muzzin Lily
Sandin Russian
Dermott Holl

I hope they are still working on an upgrade next to Muzzin. Russian should be insurance once they find a suitable upgrade because Lily deserves to play

I imagine Lilly goes down, and/or he and/or Dermott are traded.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Their TOI numbers without breaking down special teams looks fairly similar, at least on the year, a few minutes off.

But Holl has definitely been used way over his head - it's not like he excels in his role here. Realistically you want him playing 15-17 on the third pair, but he does spend a ton of time with Muzzin out of necessity, even as he's been outshone by Liljegren.

Muzzin has declined steadily in the last two years, and it's not all him.

Holl's biggest issue is he tries stuff he has no business doing and often gets burned.

Some basic counting stats: Holl has 32 giveaways this year after 41 last year, 25 combined takeaways over the time, that's a horrible ratio, almost 3:1.

Lyubushkin has 28 giveaways and 20 takeaways, far better for a Dman.

A D who will try to get the puck to the right guy to do it, or a guy who will try to carry it out himself mistakes be damned.

I've long thought that Justin Holl's biggest enemy was himself, because a lot of the tools are there;

He has size and uses it, but could use it more.
He has a heavy shot but has trouble getting into good lanes.
He can make a good first pass, but isn't too good on the line.
He's decisive, but doesn't know how to pick his spots.

The only thing he lacks, sadly, is the most important thing of all - he has terrible instincts in both zones.

If Lyubushkin can come in and give a responsible, boring, hard checking 15-17 a game, then Holl doesn't need to be put in situations out of his wheelhouse.

I almost want a Rielly-Brodie top pair and two 'revolving' second pairs built around Sandin and Muzzin on the L side with Lyub-Holl-Liljegren rotating in, with Sandin assuming #3 details until Muzzin gets his head out of his ass.

Brodie, Liljegren, Holl and Lyubushkin on the right side? Is it an elite RHD group, of course not, but I remember when it was Hainsey, Polak, Zaitsev on the right side.

Lyubushkin's turnover numbers are going to go up here. We play a system which is more susceptible to them for the way they track turnovers (a lot of stretch passes, etc.). It has nothing to do with Holl specifically.

I think Holl's ice time is perfectly fine. A 15-17 minute per night defenseman is pretty much what Dermott is when he doesn't get benched in crunch time, and Holl has generally been better than Dermott and receives 2.5 minutes of PK time per game (Dermott does not play special teams). If we are talking about ES alone, Holl only plays like 17.5-18 minutes per game... And Liljegren/Lyubushkin may bump that down into the 16.5-17 minute range.

Outside of the first few games, where he was deservedly benched, Holl has been excellent this year. Sure, he has had some rough games here or there, but he is nowhere near as bad as people like to complain about. Muzzin has been struggling a lot with basic coverage, and Holl gets blamed a lot for it. And people want always say the Leafs need this big, reliable defensive defenseman who can handle tough minutes. Holl has been that, and has been better than most, if not all, of the guys that Leafs fans have been clamouring to acquire for the past few months.

 

[Voodoo Child]

From what I remember from seeing him in Ottawa he’s a speed rush guy, with a pretty good shot and not a playmaker. Maybe worth a look with Tavares and Willy

I very much doubt Dzingel is going to pop and score 20 again.

He could come in as a useful energy guy with speed and some finish, but what interests me is the Mikheyev/Engvall paradox.

Engvall has taken a small step forward but still looks disengaged too frequently, and while he had a hot start, Mikheyev is back to being roundly infuriating with his tunnel vision and lack of finish, 2-3-5 in his last 12.

Engvall is an RFA who’s earned a modest raise the team is capable of paying, Mik is a UFA who has asked to be traded before. He will seek his bag and I guarantee he gets at least 2.75x4.

And then there’s Robertson and Amirov coming up, Nicky can’t be too far away.

If Dzingel comes in and adds, does Dubas look to flip Mikheyev before losing him for free? If some crazy GM offers a second for him it’s certainly something I’d consider.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Hard to imagine they end up choosing that pick.

Isn't 2023 supposed to be an uncommonly deep draft? If so, they might prefer that draft over 2025.

I think Mikheyev is next , not engvall fits good 4th line .
Not a good left winger

First name that came to my mind, especially if they think there's little chance of him being here next year.

I dont get the top-4 upside part tbh.

This guy is 7th in even strength ice time on one of the worst defenses in hockey - and this year is by far the best of his career.

Maybe he is slotted incorrectly. Isn't that what bad teams are more likely to do?

 

[Griffin76]

There's a chance he actually respects your opinion... take the hint/compliment!lol

That is the sad part. I actually do. He just seems to expect every question is an attack.

 

[Menzinger]

Lyubushkin is the kind of player you like to have in the playoffs when you're on the road without the last change and have the opposition put their best players out on the offensive zone draw

And makes sense considering the leafs apparently tried to find a Bogo type in free agency but couldn't find a contract worth inking.

He seems to fill that niche