Proposal: Leafs acquire a defenseman

[Empoleon8771]

It's funny, that list of spare parts includes your former top forward prospect, who would either still be your top forward prospect or would be comfortably in your 9.

When talking about guys like Trouba, yes Kapanen is a spare part. The fact that he's about on par with Sprong really doesn't change that. I'm not expecting for Winnipeg to move Trouba for a package where Sprong is the centerpiece.

 

[4thline]

When talking about guys like Trouba, yes Kapanen is a spare part. The fact that he's about on par with Sprong really doesn't change that. I'm not expecting for Winnipeg to move Trouba for a package where Sprong is the centerpiece.

The post I quoted you on was about Pouliot, not Trouba.

I'd rather have Pouliot than a collection of spare parts that I'd get offered from Leafs fans

The list of d-men in the OP varied wildly in value, as did the list of available assets. Some of the d-men would require packages of the assets, and even that might not be enough. But on the otherside some of the d-men listed would have to be in packages in to get some of the assets.

in fact Trouba is the outlier that is firmly in group 1. Then Tanev and Myers, then Stone but as a UFA to be. The by the standard being applied to the Leaf assets the rest are "spare parts"

 

[Empoleon8771]

The post I quoted you on was about Pouliot, not Trouba.



The list of d-men in the OP varied wildly in value, as did the list of available assets. Some of the d-men would require packages of the assets, and even that might not be enough. But on the otherside some of the d-men listed would have to be in packages in to get some of the assets.

in fact Trouba is the outlier that is firmly in group 1. Then Tanev and Myers, then Stone but as a UFA to be. The by the standard being applied to the Leaf assets the rest are "spare parts"

Where did I call Kapanen a spare part in my post about Pouliot then? I said I would only be getting offered spare parts in exchange for Pouliot in this thread, meaning I wouldn't be getting offered prospects like Kapanen for him. I'd expect to get offered prospects like Lepesic for Pouliot in this thread from Leafs fans, which isn't nearly enough.

 

[4thline]

Grundstrom was a late 2nd round pick last summer and Kapanen is a good wing prospect (not great, good). Neither are going to be main pieces for a top-4 D or a top end D prospect. I wouldn't trade Pouliot for Kapanen or Grundstrom and he's probably on par with most of the D prospects listed.

Grundstrom very similar to Sprong, projected late 1st that fell and early indication is looking like he shouldn't.

Where did I call Kapanen a spare part in my post about Pouliot then? I said I would only be getting offered spare parts in exchange for Pouliot in this thread, meaning I wouldn't be getting offered prospects like Kapanen for him. I'd expect to get offered prospects like Lepesic for Pouliot in this thread from Leafs fans, which isn't nearly enough.

But uh. Yeah. Different post but definitely Kapanen and Pouliot being discussed, brought up by you, in fact the post that started the exchange, unprovoked. Lol
Pouliot is just as much of a "spare part" at this point, only separated from a guy like c. carrick by draft pedigree.

->no one offers Kapanen Pouliot
->"I wouldn't do Kapanen for Pouliot
->Fine no one cares, (no one offered Kapenen, in fact no offer at all)
->" pfft Pouliot is better than the spare parts I'd get offered"
-> defense of Kapanen as a top prospect (still no offer or interest, just defense of a top prospect not being a spare part relative to other prospects)
->"but i never said Kapanen was a spare part, I was talking about imaginary offers!" (forgets being the one to bring up Kapanen)

I wouldn't expect anything to be offered in thread, there are more attractive options on the list

 

[Empoleon8771]

Pouliot is just as much of a "spare part" at this point, only separated from a guy like c. carrick by draft pedigree.

So what's the difference between Honka and Pouliot then? It's hard to take you seriously when you're comparing a guy who was on waivers to a guy who was elite at every level below the NHL.

->no one offers Kapanen Pouliot
->"I wouldn't do Kapanen for Pouliot
->Fine no one cares, (no one offered Kapenen, in fact no offer at all)
->" pfft Pouliot is better than the spare parts I'd get offered"
-> defense of Kapanen as a top prospect (still no offer or interest, just defense of a top prospect not being a spare part relative to other prospects)
->"but i never said Kapanen was a spare part, I was talking about imaginary offers!" (forgets being the one to bring up Kapanen)

I wouldn't expect anything to be offered in thread, there are more attractive options on the list

I called Kapanen a B level prospect who'd be a spare part for guys like Myers, Trouba, Tanev and other top-4 D or top end D prospects listed in the OP. Regardless of how you view Pouliot, he's still a top end prospect. Kapanen isn't going to be the first piece for D prospects on par with many in the OP, teams aren't going to be trading elite D prospects for quantity.

Maybe reading isn't your strongest trait or something.

 

[4thline]

So what's the difference between Honka and Pouliot then? It's hard to take you seriously when you're comparing a guy who was on waivers to a guy who was elite at every level below the NHL.

I called Kapanen a B level prospect who'd be a spare part for guys like Myers, Trouba, Tanev and other top-4 D or top end D prospects listed in the OP. Regardless of how you view Pouliot, he's still a top end prospect. Kapanen isn't going to be the first piece for D prospects on par with many in the OP, teams aren't going to be trading elite D prospects for quantity.

Maybe reading isn't your strongest trait or something.

A. Kapanen is not a B prospect,
B. Pouliot is not in that part of the list. That part of the list is quite small, in fact the only one's off the list that would require any add would be Honka, McAvoy, Montour, and maybe Carlo. Is it not telling that the only time he's been brought up in the thread is in response to you?
C. You flip flopped again. I thought "spare parts" was in reference to the "prospects like Leipsic" that would be offered for Pouliot?

 

[htpwn]

When talking about guys like Trouba, yes Kapanen is a spare part. The fact that he's about on par with Sprong really doesn't change that. I'm not expecting for Winnipeg to move Trouba for a package where Sprong is the centerpiece.

So Kap is the centre-piece in a deal for Phil Kessel, has only improved his standing as a prospect since, and he's considered a spare-part?

HF never ceases to amaze.

 

[Hunter368]

A. Kapanen is not a B prospect,
B. Pouliot is not in that part of the list. That part of the list is quite small, in fact the only one's off the list that would require any add would be Honka, McAvoy, Montour, and maybe Carlo. Is it not telling that the only time he's been brought up in the thread is in response to you?
C. You flip flopped again. I thought "spare parts" was in reference to the "prospects like Leipsic" that would be offered for Pouliot?

If the ranking tops out at A prospects as far as rating goes (which it does)......Kapanen is a B prospect. He certainly isn't a top end A prospect.

 

[4thline]

If the ranking tops out at A prospects as far as rating goes (which it does)......Kapanen is a B prospect. He certainly isn't a top end A prospect.

Valid point, semantics on message boards are a *****

To me there's (using Leafs)

A++ Matthews (Franchise, never traded, never more than 1 or two in the game)
A/A+ Marner/Nylander (elite, rarely traded, top 5-20 prospects each year)
B+/A- Kappy ( rest of top 50-75, the "top prospects" that do get moved in non franchise changing deals
B/-Neilson/Dermott/Grundstrom etc. guys with legitimate top 6F/4D upside but are step down, good "spare parts" . Most teams have as a couple/ few, rebuilding teams may have a half dozen or more, still hold good value as trade add ons)
C prospects Lindgren/Korostelev/Timashov - boom bust hail mary's and depth, what many call B prospects
D prospects-why did you draft this guy, ahl fodder

 

[Empoleon8771]

A. Kapanen is not a B prospect,

Yes he is. Both him and Sprong are on the same level and they're both B prospects.

B. Pouliot is not in that part of the list. That part of the list is quite small, in fact the only one's off the list that would require any add would be Honka, McAvoy, Montour, and maybe Carlo. Is it not telling that the only time he's been brought up in the thread is in response to you?

Okay, so what makes Pouliot a worse prospect than Honka? Please share. Because their AHL production is very similar, they were both high 1st rounders and they both had successful WHL careers. What makes Pouliot a worse prospect than Honka? Especially at the point of someone calling him a bust, does a 2 year difference really make Pouliot a bust while Honka is still "a top prospect"? And is Koekkoek a bust too? I think Lightning fans have been pretty satisfied with him.

C. You flip flopped again. I thought "spare parts" was in reference to the "prospects like Leipsic" that would be offered for Pouliot?

I expect spare parts like Leipsic to be offered for Pouliot and Kapanen is a spare part when you're talking about a top end D prospect or an established top-4 D. It's really not that hard to understand. A "spare part" is totally determined by who they are being traded for. Kapanen isn't a spare part himself (since he's a good prospect), but for a top-4 D, he is a spare part.

So Kap is the centre-piece in a deal for Phil Kessel, has only improved his standing as a prospect since, and he's considered a spare-part?

HF never ceases to amaze.

Okay, if you have a top-4 D that has a full NMC and a huge contact, only has a few (or 1) team interested in him and the team wants to move him, then Kapanen can be the main piece for him.

 

[4thline]

Yes he is. Both him and Sprong are on the same level and they're both B prospects.



Okay, so what makes Pouliot a worse prospect than Honka? Please share. Because their AHL production is very similar, they were both high 1st rounders and they both had successful WHL careers. What makes Pouliot a worse prospect than Honka? Especially at the point of someone calling him a bust, does a 2 year difference really make Pouliot a bust while Honka is still "a top prospect"? And is Koekkoek a bust too? I think Lightning fans have been pretty satisfied with him.


I expect spare parts like Leipsic to be offered for Pouliot and Kapanen is a spare part when you're talking about a top end D prospect or an established top-4 D. It's really not that hard to understand. A "spare part" is totally determined by who they are being traded for. Kapanen isn't a spare part himself (since he's a good prospect), but for a top-4 D, he is a spare part.
.

I think my post above about how I rate prospects will clear up a lot of this. IMO the names that I listed are also in that B+/A- tier of tradeable prospects (Honka maybe the only one up in full A territory), but higher up it. I wouldn't add much more to Kapanen than an even up pick. Pouliot would be in that same tier but lower would probaly value at straight across but wouldn't do the deal, it's not what we need. And yes Honka being as good or better in the A at 18 and 19 than Pouliot at 20 and 21 makes him better as a prospect.

I think this is the disconnect. Outside of Trouba and to a lesser extent Tanev I don't see a whole lot of "top end" this isn't Hanifin/ Provorov/ Werenski etc we're talking about. IMO Trouba is the only one on the list that "spare part" is at all justified.

 

[Leafers34]

i would love to see Dylan DeMelo from the sharks on our squad, right handed shot young, lots of upside and nhl ready

 

[StephenPeat]

Wait for the summer, go for either Stone or Alzner and/or throw 2-3 of our B+ prospects at LV. They've got a whole system to stock from scratch. A guy like Bracco will have much more value to them with his age and upside.

The premise behind this thread is exactly why Alzner will not be available. The Capitals will make resigning Alzner (Top 4D) a priority over resigning Oshie or Williams (Top 6W).

Also LV will have approximately zero incentive to take B+ prospects in Quantity-for-Quality trades, they won't have much trouble icing a team roughly as competitive as the Leafs without taking any teams second tier assets for their likely over-abundant NHL-QUALITY Dmen. Absolutely no reason for them to trade down in any deals. A long-shot like Bracco isn't likely to register for them and every team in the league has as good or better prospects to make the same deals.

 

[FerrisRox]

vatanan wouldnt be a fit here. I doubt a 5'10 offensive guy would be able to play effectively with Rielly or Gardiner, so doesnt help our top 4.

If you are serious about upgrading your defense and moving toward building a team that is a playoff contender, let go of the idea that Jake Gardiner is a top four defenseman.

Vatanan can certainly play *instead* of Jake Gardiner and with Vatanan and Rielly you have two good building blocks on your D.

 

[TheCLAM]

If you are serious about upgrading your defense and moving toward building a team that is a playoff contender, let go of the idea that Jake Gardiner is a top four defenseman.

Vatanan can certainly play *instead* of Jake Gardiner and with Vatanan and Rielly you have two good building blocks on your D.

He's a solid 2nd pairing dman - we will definitely keep him on his current contract.

No need to be bitter over the Lupul deal

 

[4thline]

Also LV will have approximately zero incentive to take B+ prospects in Quantity-for-Quality trades, they won't have much trouble icing a team roughly as competitive as the Leafs without taking any teams second tier assets for their likely over-abundant NHL-QUALITY Dmen. Absolutely no reason for them to trade down in any deals. A long-shot like Bracco isn't likely to register for them and every team in the league has as good or better prospects to make the same deals.

Unless the NHL takes big steps to limit the preparation shenanigans and/or LV makes a couple of big splashes in free agency I think you'll be wrong about their quality. The Leafs are rolling three legitimate second lines and are sitting as a bubble team right now with good underyling possession stats. LV won't be "expansion bad" -they'll have an actual NHL team- but I doubt they're competing for the playoffs out of the gate (caveats above).

And there is a huge reason for them to trade "their likely over abundant NHL quality Dmen". Unless the nhl coddles them and grants them waiver exemption they will HAVE TO move a couple in the offseason. And as a team with exactly one entry draft and all 18-22 year old prospects protected from the expansion draft I'd be willing to bet that adding an infusion of high upside B+ prospects will be a priority. They need to put a pipeline in place, and drafting it 7 guys at a time won't work. Does every team have prospect(s) as good or better than Bracco? Sure. Does every team have 3-4 prospects as good as Bracco + extra 2nd rounders in this draft and next that they can afford to move without seriously depleting their pool? No.