LD Aron Kiviharju - TPS, FIN JRS (2024 Draft)

[Asiantuntija]

Laine, Granlund, Puljujärvi stood out at very, very young age. Everyone in Oulu-area knew Granlund at age of 11. Puljujärvi was 11 when they wrote the legendary article of him scoring 8 goals in the SM-Bandy final, which ended 8-7. At age of 13 Pulju moved to Oulu and started in C-juniors, and everyone here already knew him. Ville Nieminen said that Laine was noticed when he was under 10y old, because he was scoring goals all the time.

if you are special, age doesn’t really matter.

Only time will tell how Aron ends up, but I find these kind of threads very interesting.

Nieminen doesn't know what he is talking about. Laine was goalkeeper before he turn 12.

 

[Patrik Barkov]

Nieminen doesn't know what he is talking about. Laine was goalkeeper before he turn 12.

Probably wasn't a full time goalie until then though.

 

[Asiantuntija]

Probably wasn't a full time goalie until then though.

Yes he probably played some games, but i bet he was goalkeeper at least 80% of his time.

 

[ijuka]

Laine, Granlund, Puljujärvi stood out at very, very young age. Everyone in Oulu-area knew Granlund at age of 11. Puljujärvi was 11 when they wrote the legendary article of him scoring 8 goals in the SM-Bandy final, which ended 8-7. At age of 13 Pulju moved to Oulu and started in C-juniors, and everyone here already knew him. Ville Nieminen said that Laine was noticed when he was under 10y old, because he was scoring goals all the time.

if you are special, age doesnÂ’t really matter.

Only time will tell how Aron ends up, but I find these kind of threads very interesting.

Good post. It's very interesting to think about. Even if Kiviharju regressed completely and stayed at his u11 level of play until he was u13, I'd say that he still would be the top defenseman for his age group. He frequently does things that I just never see, not only by players of his age group but quite a bit older ones as well, and the scoring is absurd.

I'm not sure if some would think this is him playing against weak competition in Japan or Norway or something, but Finland's still recently been putting out some rather respectable prospect defensemen. I haven't seen any defenseman come within half of his scoring - Even players who actually are 2 years older - in the age group he's playing at, in any of the years I could check(Which isn't many because there seems to be some loss of data due to the database movement...).

Something else to note is that TPS juniors have a pretty good track record. Their teams have usually had around 2-4 players per age group sent to national teams for their respective age groups, and they have produced the best Finnish offensive defenseman in NHL currently(Rasmus Ristolainen). The situation's not even close to a prospect being hyped as the very first high draft pick-worthy player to come out of an obscure country/development system.


While he has yet to entirely fulfill expectations, Jesse Puljujärvi at a young age was probably the most impressive minor player Finland's had in the recent years(possibly ever). Here's his C2 scoring while 2 years underage:

14+8=22 in 6 gp(group stages)
16+12=28 in 9gp

C2 is usually the first level players are recognized in, as it's the first "Serious" level(Though D1 already preps for that). It's extremely rare for a player to enter this league 2 years below his age group and score very well, like Puljujärvi did. Still, it is worth noting that he did play at a pretty obscure location at this point, only moving to Kärpät the season after(And his scoring dropping to only 1.5 PPG in C-SM, which should have been against the same exact age group of players he was playing C2 against). I'd assume that his C2 play was not exactly against the highest caliber opposition. Regardless... For instance, Laine didn't do it until a year older, and didn't score nearly as well(But he does have that whole goalie thing). Leevi Aaltonen scored around 3.3 PPG while being 1 year under. Niklas Nordgren, a likely 2018 first rounder, scored around 3.5 PPG but was actually playing with his own age group. Now, Aron likely won't play at the C2 level until next year. But he did score at a significantly higher pace in D2 while being 2 years underage. It'll be interesting to see whether he'll increase his scoring relative to his peers or whether it slows down. And I doubt that he's suddenly going to stay at D1 for another year considering that he's played 2 years above his age group at least since he was 6 years old. As I said, I expect him to get at least a game in C2.

But yeah, when all this is considered, this thread really is only around 1 year too early, if we use playing in C2 as the usual benchmark.

 

[BondraTime]

Good post. It's very interesting to think about. Even if Kiviharju regressed completely and stayed at his u11 level of play until he was u13, I'd say that he still would be the top defenseman for his age group. He frequently does things that I just never see, not only by players of his age group but quite a bit older ones as well, and the scoring is absurd.

I'm not sure if some would think this is him playing against weak competition in Japan or Norway or something, but Finland's still recently been putting out some rather respectable prospect defensemen. I haven't seen any defenseman come within half of his scoring - Even players who actually are 2 years older - in the age group he's playing at, in any of the years I could check(Which isn't many because there seems to be some loss of data due to the database movement...).

Something else to note is that TPS juniors have a pretty good track record. Their teams have usually had around 2-4 players per age group sent to national teams for their respective age groups, and they have produced the best Finnish offensive defenseman in NHL currently(Rasmus Ristolainen). The situation's not even close to a prospect being hyped as the very first high draft pick-worthy player to come out of an obscure country/development system.


While he has yet to entirely fulfill expectations, Jesse Puljujärvi at a young age was probably the most impressive minor player Finland's had in the recent years(possibly ever). Here's his C2 scoring while 2 years underage:

14+8=22 in 6 gp(group stages)
16+12=28 in 9gp

C2 is usually the first level players are recognized in, as it's the first "Serious" level(Though D1 already preps for that). It's extremely rare for a player to enter this league 2 years below his age group and score very well, like Puljujärvi did. For instance, Laine didn't do it until a year older, and didn't score nearly as well(But he does have that whole goalie thing). Now, Aron likely won't play at the C2 level until next year. But he did score at a significantly higher pace in D2 while being 2 years underage. It'll be interesting to see whether he'll increase his scoring relative to his peers or whether it slows down.

But yeah, when all this is considered, this thread really is only around 1 year too early, if we use C2 as the usual benchmark.

But it's not the usual benchmark.

Age 11-12-13 is never, and will never be the usual benchmark.

Just look at the Yann Suave-Drew Doughty thread literally on this same page. That was 2 years before their draft, and many/most claims on that look extremely foolish. 7 years prior is just absurd to be predicting anything, much less generational.

Patrice Cormier was playing Junior A hockey in Canada as a double under aged player (14 years old) against 16-20 year olds. He looked like a sure fire top NHL pick and sure fire NHLer at one point. Things change, the amount they can change, especially from age 11, is enormous. Trying to label what an 11 year old will be in 7+ years is as useful as showing a picture of water to a dehydrated man.

 

[ijuka]

When they play in the C2 league in Finland is the usual benchmark for when players first get a bit more widely recognized, that is. Though C-SM is when they might actually get some coverage for the first time. With rare exceptions.

I don't know about Cormier at all so I won't comment on him. I like to stay within Finland's minor/junior system that I might actually have some knowledge of.

Here's someone else who was hyped at 10 years of age:



Seems to have worked out.


Aron has attributes that would be very impressive to see for a 13, 14, 15-year-old player. It'd be great to at least recognize that. See how he handles pressure in the defensive zone and compare that to just about any defenseman of the 04 age group. It's not just stat-watching or flash.

 

[BondraTime]

When they play in the C2 league in Finland is the usual benchmark for when players first get a bit more widely recognized, that is. Though C-SM is when they might actually get some coverage for the first time. With rare exceptions.

I don't know about Cormier at all so I won't comment on him. I like to stay within Finland's minor/junior system that I might actually have some knowledge of.

Here's someone else who was hyped at 10 years of age:



Seems to have worked out.


Aron has attributes that would be very impressive to see for a 13, 14, 15-year-old player. It'd be great to at least recognize that. See how he handles pressure in the defensive zone and compare that to just about any defenseman of the 04 age group. It's not just stat-watching or flash.

First Marner thread on HF - 16 years of age

Just look up the Brick Invitational, you'll see videos of dozens upon dozens of NHL players and stars at the age of 10-11, who all look as good/better.

You'll also see videos of guys who were extremely good at that age and turned into nothing.

Of course you can see talent at that age. Trying to claim someone at 11 is the top prospect for his age is foolish.

Yes, he looks great. He's also 11. Development isn't linear, for him or anyone. Just ask Emilio Petterson (the last guy unfairly brought up that early that was that much better than his peers).

You just said an 11 year old is the next Erik Karlsson. That's absurd. You wouldn't call an actual 18 year old 1st overall pick the next Erik Karlsson.

Is he someone to keep an eye on? Certainly. Being discovered young doesn't mean you'll be great at 16/17/18 when the draft approaches. Peterson went from "guaranteed 2018 1st overall superstar" in 2012, to "may possibly be a 3rd round pick in 2018" in 2017. Dahlen and Svechnikov started making noise around 14, and they are guaranteed to be top picks.

 

[Hokinaittii]

Nieminen doesn't know what he is talking about. Laine was goalkeeper before he turn 12.

Laine wasn't a fulltime goalkeeper. They had few guys who took turns as goalie in juniors and Laine was one of them.

 

[ijuka]

Yes, he looks great. He's also 11. Development isn't linear, for him or anyone. Just ask Emilio Petterson (the last guy unfairly brought up that early that was that much better than his peers).

You just said an 11 year old is the next Erik Karlsson. That's absurd. You wouldn't call an actual 18 year old 1st overall pick the next Erik Karlsson.

Is he someone to keep an eye on? Certainly. Being discovered young doesn't mean you'll be great at 16/17/18 when the draft approaches. Peterson went from "guaranteed 2018 1st overall superstar" in 2012, to "may possibly be a 3rd round pick in 2018" in 2017. Dahlen and Svechnikov started making noise around 14, and they are guaranteed to be top picks.

Well, that certainly is correct. Development isn't linear and things can change. But you can think of it like this - He could completely stagnate for 2 full seasons and he'd still likely be the best offensive D of his age group. Because his scoring hasn't been impressive only for his age, but for 2 years above his age. Even in WSI u12 when he was u10, he got selected in the all star team, and no one's else has ever scored higher than him in that tournament as a defenseman - which he did while 2 years younger than nearly everyone else.

Emilio Pettersen is a bit of a poor example because he falls into the category of "hyped prospect from an obscure hockey country". It's pretty easy to stand out amongst juniors over there, and his 10-year-old play(according to the few clips I've seen) was nowhere near Aron's anyway. Skating for instance is 99 to 1 in Aron's favor. The basic, boring play and general consistency I can't really judge but my bias assumes that for a Norwegian it'd be at a poor level.


Of course, announcing him as the next Karlsson is a little "ballsy", but it's really no big deal if I end up being wrong. On the other hand, if I'm correct, at least I've followed the journey.

 

[FinProspects]

Hows it going with Aron?

 

[ijuka]

Hows it going with Aron?

Playing with D1s so 2 years above his age group. He finished the first half of the season with 24 points in 17 games, tied for second in points on his team with the leader having 27 points.

Hasn't been nearly as dominant as last year, I'd say. He doesn't seem to try to go for very fancy plays as much and seems to give the pucks to his teammates a lot sooner. Feels pretty stable as a distributor, though, and there are the occasional flashes of challenging with the puck but not as frequently . I'm not sure if this has something to do with the 2 year age difference becoming more difficult to deal with at this age as puberty affects others but not him. And of course, his team is a lot less dominant this season. His skating is still extremely good for this age group when he actually attempts to go for a challenge.

Defensive play is still a work in progress when he actually has to execute there, but he's rather responsible defensively. Usually he's really far back and the lowest D which also has caused him to miss out on quite a few points in my opinion. Well, not like being tied for second on his team in points as a defenseman playing 2 years above your age group is bad by any means.

When he does decide to go for a rush, here is a relatively recent example:

 

[ookhaab]

This season he is playing as double underager in C2 AAA and leads his team with 12 points in 6 games, the second player has 8 points in as many games.

Just a small update, next season he will probably play in C sm-sarja already.

@ijuka have you seen him play this season? How has he looked?

 

[ijuka]

This season he is playing as double underager in C2 AAA and leads his team with 12 points in 6 games, the second player has 8 points in as many games.

Just a small update, next season he will probably play in C sm-sarja already.

@ijuka have you seen him play this season? How has he looked?

Extremely good. Words would not do his play justice so here's a shift-by-shift of a game this past Saturday:

Spoiler

Period 1:

Period 2:

Period 3:

If you feel like watching that, I'd be interested in hearing your assessment, actually.

 

[FinPanda]

He turned 13 yesterday and today he played with TPS C-juniors (U16 league). Youngest to do so in 26 years.

Well, Aron Kiviharju(b. 2006) now played in the Finnish C-juniors(u16) for TPS as a triple underager - doesn't happen very often. The first two periods didn't get to do a whole lot but though he was held pointless, there was one super shift in the third. He dangled through the entire field and generated an empty net chance for a teammate who missed, and then hit the post from the slot where he received a pass while wide open. I wonder what they're going to do. The chemistry clearly wasn't there as he rarely if ever got the puck, and he got a low amount of ice time and no PP / PK time. I don't think he played poorly, though. I hope they either just have him continue playing in C2 AAA(u15) or give him better opportunities at C, starting with PP time(He's a PP specialist).

Yeah, even Puljujärvi didn't do it as far as I'm aware and he was the most advanced minor player since ever so the last one should have been somewhere in the 80s.

I got a clip of the shift I mentioned (#3 Black/White):

 

[FinPanda]

Two primary assists today against HPK U16. First points with C-juniors. He may be the youngest player in C-juniors history so it's highly likely he is youngest to get points too.

 

[ijuka]

Two primary assists today against HPK U16. First points with C-juniors. He may be the youngest player in C-juniors history so it's highly likely he is youngest to get points too.

The only u13 player in history - there only was one other I found, going through every single u14 player to have played there on eliteprospects. But his stats page made no sense, supposedly he was in u16s as a u13 player, then took 3 years off until having terrible seasons in u18s and u20s and then ending up in III div. I'd say that the stats there are bs and that really was his u16 season until proven otherwise.

And yes, as the only u13 player in history, he's also the only u13 point-scorer in history. And with 2 assists tonight he now has twice as many points as his teammate, the 04-born Max Kaituri in 40% the games played, already receiving more ice time and responsibility. And Max Kaituri was a first round camp Pohjola invite: Leijonat - Ensimmäiset pelaajat vuoden 2019 Pohjola-leirille valittu – Tässä 38 nimeä!

I think he could play on the u16 national team next season. Of course, Finland won't do it. But he could.

 

[ikzu]

Something in this thread is creepy. I mean grown up men following a kid who can't even drive moped for almost two years.

Shouldn't we wait until he's 15-16 or something?

 

[FinPanda]

Something in this thread is creepy. I mean grown up men following a kid who can't even drive moped for almost two years.

Shouldn't we wait until he's 15-16 or something?

He just made history, so I posted that. I won't be here after every single game.. I was only stat watching anyway.

People knew about Vaakanainen when he was 11 etc.

 

[ijuka]

Something in this thread is creepy. I mean grown up men following a kid who can't even drive moped for almost two years.

Shouldn't we wait until he's 15-16 or something?

The Hockey News makes an article titled "Meet the future of hockey, the 13-year-old Connor Bedard" for someone who at the time is 4 months older than him. They also rank him within their top 100 for "top 100 21 and under". But this thread's creepy. Yeah, OK. Get over yourself.

 

[ikzu]

The Hockey News makes an article titled "Meet the future of hockey, the 13-year-old Connor Bedard" for someone who at the time is 4 months older than him.

Well, then that's a quite creepy article too.

 

[Ippenator]

Something in this thread is creepy. I mean grown up men following a kid who can't even drive moped for almost two years.

Shouldn't we wait until he's 15-16 or something?

What is creepy is the post you just made here. Just plain awful. Shame on you, seriously!

 

[JustAPleb]

Two primary assists today against HPK U16. First points with C-juniors. He may be the youngest player in C-juniors history so it's highly likely he is youngest to get points too.

Today one assist more vs Lukko U16. In 5 games 0 goals, 3 assists.

 

[3 Minute Minor]

At what age is he allowed to play U18 games in Finland?

 

[Mrb1p]

damn

anyway this makes me feel old

im 2020 draft

Lol bro get out of here im 2011

 

[FinnishSniper]

At what age is he allowed to play U18 games in Finland?

There is no age gap for that. This kid’s looking like a gem in the making, we’ll see next year when he starts playing in the U16 league though!