Last chance for Dubas and or Keefe?

[Nooodles]

No
/thread

 

[fahad203]

Like I said. In normal circumstances there would be grounds for letting Keefe go. The pandemic bought him another kick at the can. Dubas probably more time.

You are absolutely correct. Pandemic was the biggest asset to Keefe and the best thing to happen to him
He got to play Ottawa 9, Habs 9 and a garbage Conference(North) to pad his stats to become the fastest coach in NHL history to reach 100 wins

Because of Pandemic he's getting his NHL career made, too many benefit of the doubt

 

[keonsbitterness]

And Dubas/keefe still gets benefit of the doubt?

From this forum if they lose in the first round? Of course they won't.

From upper management? Different story IMO.

 

[Jojalu]

No, I'm not acting spoiled. Spoiled would be if I maintained this attitude despite Dubas and Keefe proving me wrong (which would be winning a few playoff rounds over the years). As it stands all they've done is prove me right for not wanting them to begin with.

Dubas still insists on filling the lineup with undersized forwards. There's still no #1D. There's still no #1G. The big 4 is still intact. There's few forwards in this group that play playoff style hockey.

I apoligise. I was being a smart ass.

Where per se is this 1D who 50% of the league is looking for coming from? Reilly is a 1D BTW, a legit 1D but probably not elite.

Every forward has been playing playoff style hockey since the deadline. So either you are being disingenious or you havn't been watching.

I would doubt it myself if I had not witnessed the turn of events

 

[Gallagbi]

Nope. But, their 88 is still there. Have you paid any attention to what kind of contribution Nick Paul has made to that team post-deadline?

Here's a reminder:

I like the Paul addition for them, but don't we have to ignore it given its a regular season add and Paul is a mid 20s NHLer who has never played a post season game?

 

[Dekes For Days]

You have a hard time with what actually happens vs. what you hope/wish happens.

Nope, I'm looking at what has actually happened. I'm just looking at everything that's happened, and putting the most value on the most current and representative things, instead of putting unreasonable emphasis on outdated, less representative things, and looking exclusively at the end outcome of a small sample from 1-5 years ago with a largely different group of players against a different opponent.

Tell me... What happened in the season Tampa won the President's trophy?
Tell me...What happened in the last two seasons where Tampa didn't win the President's trophy?

In all 3 years, they were a very good team. It's funny you mention them, because losing (in horribly embarrassing fashion) in the 1st year didn't prevent them from winning a cup the next year. Any reasonable person would have looked at Tampa in 2020, and concluded that they were a very good team that had a good chance to win, despite their most recent playoff outcome being horrible (way more horrible than anything we've done).

 

[Jojalu]

You are absolutely correct. Pandemic was the biggest asset to Keefe and the best thing to happen to him
He got to play Ottawa 9, Habs 9 and a garbage Conference(North) to pad his stats to become the fastest coach in NHL history to reach 100 wins

Because of Pandemic he's getting his NHL career made, too many benefit of the doubt

Except contrary to that he also now holds the record for most points and wins in a season not playing against "Garbage Canadian teams"

 

[riffle]

Nope, I'm looking at what has actually happened. I'm just looking at everything that's happened, and putting the most value on the most current and representative things, instead of putting unreasonable emphasis on outdated, less representative things, and looking exclusively at the end outcome of a small sample from 1-5 years ago with a largely different group of players against a different opponent.

In all 3 years, they were a very good team. It's funny you mention them, because losing (in horribly embarrassing fashion) in the 1st year didn't prevent them from winning a cup the next year. Any reasonable person would have looked at Tampa in 2020, and concluded that they were a very good team that had a good chance to win, despite their most recent playoff outcome being horrible.

Yup. And they proved they were a good team, didn't they, by winning back-to-back Cups.

The Leafs proved after losing to a team in Columbus that they should've beaten, easily, that they would fall yet, again, to an even more inferior team. So, the trend looks to be going a certain way and now that we're bumping up against the back-to-back champs it's going to be different based on....WHAT?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yup. And they proved they were a good team, didn't they, by winning back-to-back Cups.

No, they proved they were a good team, and then won Cups, after losing horribly the year prior. Losing horribly in the playoffs didn't prevent them from winning the next year.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I don't tear down the team. That is your perception. I question things that all of us have questions about.

Sure, I suppose a lot of the questions I pose and expound on are things you'd rather ignore, but doesn't mean you don't think about them like I do.

As for cheering for the team, that is a bad reframing of me based on questioning things. You should see me during a game. My young daughter is now a Marner fan in the most casual sense. Bought her a pink Leafs jersey that arrived just the other day. My family knows I love the Leafs. Hard to miss that fact given all my Leafs attire that I wear all the time.

Sorry, I don't experience the Leafs the way you want me to but at least I have the part about cheering for them down.

During the Washington game you kept talking about how strong Tampa was. What exactly is the point about talking about Tampa during a GDT? You also seemed quite gleeful with the idea of Tampa winning home ice.

Maybe when you watch games at home with your family your different. Here though? You're following the same pattern in a long line of posters who seem to post here to just trash the team and spread misery.

We're not stupid, we can recognize the same pattern. If you don't like being viewed that way then try and show some actual happiness when the team does things well.

 

[riffle]

No, they proved they were a good team, and then won Cups, after losing horribly the year prior. Losing horribly in the playoffs didn't prevent them from winning the next year.

Losing ONCE...not 4 playoff series in a row and a play in, making 5-series losses. As much as you don't like it, that is a trend. It is not some small sample size. It's 5 years of your life and you're pretending it didn't happen.

 

[notbias]

Nope. But, their 88 is still there. Have you paid any attention to what kind of contribution Nick Paul has made to that team post-deadline?

Here's a reminder:

You said the best indication of the future is the past or something like that, I brought up the very influential 3rd line they had, and you responded by showing me someone who was not there in the past... Not following the logic, sorry.

 

[JKG33]

I apoligise. I was being a smart ass.

Where per se is this 1D who 50% of the league is looking for coming from? Reilly is a 1D BTW, a legit 1D but probably not elite.

Every forward has been playing playoff style hockey since the deadline. So either you are being disingenious or you havn't been watching.

I would doubt it myself if I had not witnessed the turn of events

lol no worries, you've been good to argue with the last few days. Respect.

I love Rielly, but he's a pretty low end 1D and not one you'd want if you're a serious contender. Pietrangelo was recently a UFA and if you believe the reports he actually wanted to come to Toronto. The contract he signed with Vegas was reasonable, all Dubas would've had to do was clear a little bit of extra cap space (most of which could be accounted for by not signing Holl and Brodie).

Theres a difference between hitting in the regular season and following through with that plan come playoff time, especially against a rough, dirty and physical team like Tampa. The forwards are still undersized too. There was that athletic article posted on the main boards the other day correlating cup winners with the best ratio of size and # of hits.

 

[riffle]

During the Washington game you kept talking about how strong Tampa was. What exactly is the point about talking about Tampa during a GDT? You also seemed quite gleeful with the idea of Tampa winning home ice.

Maybe when you watch games at home with your family your different. Here though? You're following the same pattern in a long line of posters who seem to post here to just trash the team and spread misery.

We're not stupid, we can recognize the same pattern. If you don't like being viewed that way then try and show some actual happiness when the team does things well.

I made two posts (or 3 if you count me posting the video of Paul's goal) about how they were looking as I was watching both games, concurrently, which is something I never do. I did that because the Tampa game had HUGE implications for the Leafs as to home ice. I'm a big enough fan to watch both games because I knew how much it mattered. Did you do that? Am I a bigger better fan than you for keeping an eye on the Bolts game?

Wasn't gleeful. You have to remember, that I spent some time going over home ice permutations and was met with significant resistance that what I was posting about was akin to impossible and nothing to be concerned about. If not for the Spezza goal with the goalie pulled, all the things I was very concerned about happening, almost happened. They didn't and I'm thankful they didn't. However, I wouldn't be disingenuous and say that watching people have to eat it that called me crazy wouldn't have given me some personal satisfaction. The posters calling the Tampa game vs. us "meaningless" is something I found bizarre and wrong.

Never said or think you're stupid. I see some of the post counts and years spent here and wouldn't conclude anyone isn't wise to forum shenanigans. I was called another poster when I got here. The way I was raised was questioned, all because my opinion didn't align. Pretty sad stuff if you ask me, and I do find it sad when my fandom is questioned but I also understand it.

I don't pay money for hats (I think I have 9 Leafs hats), shirts, streaming Leafs games, because I'm not a fan. My wife hates sports and wants the Leafs season over ASAP. She's the same every year. Hates hockey and that I love it. I want it to extend to the Finals every year.

I'm not your enemy. I may seem like it when I post about things that bring fear or concern into your mind but that's only because it's present in mine and I like discussing hockey with fellow fans even when they hate me for it in return.

 

[Jojalu]

lol no worries, you've been good to argue with the last few days. Respect.

I love Rielly, but he's a pretty low end 1D and not one you'd want if you're a serious contender. Pietrangelo was recently a UFA and if you believe the reports he actually wanted to come to Toronto. The contract he signed with Vegas was reasonable, all Dubas would've had to do was clear a little bit of extra cap space (most of which could be accounted for by not signing Holl and Brodie).

Theres a difference between hitting in the regular season and following through with that plan come playoff time, especially against a rough, dirty and physical team like Tampa. The forwards are still undersized too. There was that athletic article posted on the main boards the other day correlating cup winners with the best ratio of size and # of hits.

Agreed. I choose hope. The signs are there that maybe they buy into what it takes. Baby steps but in previous years we didn't see any of this.

 

[riffle]

You said the best indication of the future is the past or something like that, I brought up the very influential 3rd line they had, and you responded by showing me someone who was not there in the past... Not following the logic, sorry.

Huh? The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. That is a truism. You're asking me about a 3rd line that isn't there. I don't follow your logic.

 

[notbias]

Huh? The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. That is a truism. You're asking me about a 3rd line that isn't there. I don't follow your logic.

Well, Tampa won nothing without that third line (actually got swept), then they acquired them and won twice, now they are gone again, wouldn't that indicate they are most likely to get swept?

Just not following the logic on how a different team than years past is going to predict the future.

Is Montreal most likely going to win the cup next year because they have the most cups?

 

[Gabriel426]

No of course not. He has tremendous value at his price and would garner a decent return.

I think if they failed again, which I don’t want to see, changes are coming. I have a feeling Dubas will overpaid for a goalie.
Is trading Willie the answer? Hard to say bc the person should be traded is untradable.
I don’t see Willie going for a Wilson type but do see Willie gone for a goalie.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Losing ONCE..

In horribly embarrassing fashion, way worse than anything we've experienced**

So the most recent playoff outcome of a team doesn't matter, but ones even older and less relevant are all that matters? Hmm...

 

[Dekes For Days]

Is Montreal most likely going to win the cup next year because they have the most cups?

Heck, they must be most likely to make the finals this year, since that's what happened last year.

Personally, I think it will be difficult for Montreal to make the Cup finals this year, but that's just me.

 

[riffle]

Well, Tampa won nothing without that third line (actually got swept), then they acquired them and won twice, now they are gone again, wouldn't that indicate they are most likely to get swept?

Just not following the logic on how a different team than years past is going to predict the future.

Is Montreal most likely going to win the cup next year because they have the most cups?

I think you've taken a truism of life and parsed it up with strawmen that are way off the subject.

Yes, Tampa's 3rd line is gone and it is worthy of discussion. Gourde was one of my favorite players in the league. Love that guy. Plays so hard. Wish the Leafs had him.

However, I asked you if you'd seen Nick Paul and what he's brought to that 3rd line? There's the pre-deadline version of Tampa and the post, same for us. Nick Paul has been great for them. Hagel, not so much, but we'll see how that line does vs. us in May. It may perform better than their old one, and it may perform worse.

I kind of expected someone to say... Shouldn't we expect Montreal to make it to the Cup, again, this season because they did last season? Their run was a one-off. There was no established pattern of behavior with Montreal. There is a very established pattern of behavior with Toronto. All these things said back to the truth of nothing predicts future behavior more than past behavior is done to not have to think about the truth of the statement. The fact that the truism is true about behavior doesn't mean the Leafs lose for sure. It only means that it shouldn't be viewed as being a bad fan if you think the Leafs are going to lose. That's where the smart money is. Why be upset for someone believing in something that is most likely to happen? I don't want it to happen, I just think it is likely.

EDIT: And, there's Deke's with the Montreal thing. That's fantastic.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I made two posts (or 3 if you count me posting the video of Paul's goal) about how they were looking as I was watching both games, concurrently, which is something I never do. I did that because the Tampa game had HUGE implications for the Leafs as to home ice. I'm a big enough fan to watch both games because I knew how much it mattered. Did you do that? Am I a bigger better fan than you for keeping an eye on the Bolts game?

Wasn't gleeful. You have to remember, that I spent some time going over home ice permutations and was met with significant resistance that what I was posting about was akin to impossible and nothing to be concerned about. If not for the Spezza goal with the goalie pulled, all the things I was very concerned about happening, almost happened. They didn't and I'm thankful they didn't. However, I wouldn't be disingenuous and say that watching people have to eat it that called me crazy wouldn't have given me some personal satisfaction. The posters calling the Tampa game vs. us "meaningless" is something I found bizarre and wrong.

Never said or think you're stupid. I see some of the post counts and years spent here and wouldn't conclude anyone isn't wise to forum shenanigans. I was called another poster when I got here. The way I was raised was questioned, all because my opinion didn't align. Pretty sad stuff if you ask me, and I do find it sad when my fandom is questioned but I also understand it.

I don't pay money for hats (I think I have 9 Leafs hats), shirts, streaming Leafs games, because I'm not a fan. My wife hates sports and wants the Leafs season over ASAP. She's the same every year. Hates hockey and that I love it. I want it to extend to the Finals every year.

I'm not your enemy. I may seem like it when I post about things that bring fear or concern into your mind but that's only because it's present in mine and I like discussing hockey with fellow fans even when they hate me for it in return.

You're not bringing fear or concern into peoples minds. Everyone here has been more or less waiting for the playoffs to start. People don't hate you, we're just tired of posters who follow the same mold. None of this is new, none of this alarms anyone.

There's bascially a checklist for a certain type of poster, how many of these apply to you.

Rarely posts in a GDT unless the team is losing​

Focuses on only on the negatives during a season​

Predicts in mutlple threads the team is doomed​

Runs down the players when they slump, but doesn't awknowledge when they do well​

Matthews scored 58 goals this year, have you even commented on that? Or if I looked at your posts about Matthews would they be about him not scoring in the last week?

Anyways do what you want, but don't be surprised when people call it out.

 

[riffle]

You're not bring fear or concern into peoples minds. Everyone here has been more or less waiting for the playoffs to start. People don't hate you, we're just tired of posters who follow the same mold. None of this is new, none of this alarms anyone.

There's bascially a checklist for a certain type of poster, how many of these apply to you.

Rarely posts in a GDT unless the team is losing​

Focuses on only on the negatives during a season​

Predicts in mutlple threads the team is doomed​

Runs down the players when they slump, but doesn't awknowledg when they do well​

Matthews scored 58 goals this year, have you even commented on that? Or if I looked at your posts about Matthews would they be about him not scoring in the last week?

Anyways do what you want, but don't be surprised when people call it out.

That list is subjective as it is calibrated to your personal tastes.

I have commented on Matthews quest. I don't care. I've said that over and over. Personal achievements are not meaningless, but to me, they matter very little. I'm a TEAM over INDIVIDUAL kind of guy. I posted a poll about this because I've seen over the years that some fans are still happy after a loss because their favorite player scored. I find that very weird. I've seen many here lusting to see 60. I would rather see a big win over Detroit than Auston hit 60, although, I would like to see him score or his drought reaches 6.

To me, I find it very sad that you think a TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS fan needs to be absorbed or caught up in Auston's number of goals. I have one goal as a fan...seeing the team skate around with the Cup hoisted high. that is what matters to me. Marner is my favorite player. I don't care if he scores 40 or 14 as long as they win.

EDIT: I would also add that I have seen rose colored glasses posters on every sports forum I've ever spent any time on. I think someone who is programmed to every single time say something positive about the team is as troubling as someone who is always wired to say something negative. You have me framed as always negative. Not the case. If you have time to go through my thousand posts, here, you may have some data that goes against the confirmation-bias that has formed.

 

[notbias]

I think you've taken a truism of life and parsed it up with strawmen that are way off the subject.

Yes, Tampa's 3rd line is gone and it is worthy of discussion. Gourde was one of my favorite players in the league. Love that guy. Plays so hard. Wish the Leafs had him.

However, I asked you if you'd seen Nick Paul and what he's brought to that 3rd line? There's the pre-deadline version of Tampa and the post, same for us. Nick Paul has been great for them. Hagel, not so much, but we'll see how that line does vs. us in May. It may perform better than their old one, and it may perform worse.

I kind of expected someone to say... Shouldn't we expect Montreal to make it to the Cup, again, this season because they did last season? Their run was a one-off. There was no established pattern of behavior with Montreal. There is a very established pattern of behavior with Toronto. All these things said back to the truth of nothing predicts future behavior more than past behavior is done to not have to think about the truth of the statement. The fact that the truism is true about behavior doesn't mean the Leafs lose for sure. It only means that it shouldn't be viewed as being a bad fan if you think the Leafs are going to lose. That's where the smart money is. Why be upset for someone believing in something that is most likely to happen? I don't want it to happen, I just think it is likely.

EDIT: And, there's Deke's with the Montreal thing. That's fantastic.

Tampa had an established pattern of not winning without that 3rd line.

You said a lot of words to not address much.

"Why be upset for someone believing in something that is most likely to happen?"

I'd assume the most likely outcome based on history is the team finishing higher in the standings wins.

Really just none of your OPINIONS follow much logic.

 

[ACC1224]

Looks like the squirrels have taken this one way off topic.