Speculation: Lalonde

[dragonballgtz]

Our defense and goaltending is suspect at best. Hard for me to give Lalonde crap if we don't make the playoffs again.

 

[PajamaBoy]

He's either won or been a finalist for the Jack Adams at his 3 previous teams...

Lol. All those teams gone on to win presidents trophy and titles within 2-3 years of him leaving. Lafreniere looked like a bust under him not someone who develops young players. You want an overhyped players coach to come in? Lol man I don't understand this place. Hartley has two jack Adams should we interview him too? Damn Bylsma has a ring but theirs a reason it took a decade before amnesia set into to make us forget how truly shit he was.

How can someone dread hiring a career loser like gallant with the fear of our modern legend firing him .. what are these statements lol

 

[The Zermanator]

Lol. All those teams gone on to win presidents trophy and titles within 2-3 years of him leaving. Lafreniere looked like a bust under him not someone who develops young players. You want an overhyped players coach to come in? Lol man I don't understand this place. Hartley has two jack Adams should we interview him too? Damn Bylsma has a ring but theirs a reason it took a decade before amnesia set into to make us forget how truly shit he was.

How can someone dread hiring a career loser like gallant with the fear of our modern legend firing him .. what are these statements lol

Were the teams that went on to greater success composed the same way when he was the coach? Or did their rosters improve to enable that success? Whatever way you slice it, he's been personally successful at his 3 previous teams, period. And since it seems to need mentioning, Gerard Gallant, Bob Hartley, and Dan Bylsma are three entirely different people. You're the one who brought up the latter two completely out of the blue. And Gallant was nominated for the Jack Adams in 2016, won in 2018, and nominated again in 2022. He's either won or been nominated for 1/3 of the last decade. Yet you bring up two coaches who haven't had success in a decade or more. Nice cherry-picking there.

As far as Lafreniere is concerned, could it possibly be that he just needed a few years to find his identity and carve out a role for himself in the NHL? Surely not, it must be the coach's fault that a 19-20 year old didn't tear up the league. Give me a break. Lafreniere had a lacklustre rookie season as well, which was the year prior to Gallant taking over. Was that his fault too? Lafreniere went from 39 pts in 81 games in his D+3 under Gallant to 57 points in 82 games this past season in his D+4. Lucas Raymond went from 45 pts in 74 games in his D+3 to 72 pts in 82 games in his D+4, both under the same coach. Here's a newsflash for you, young players not named Crosby or McDavid need a few years to find their game. Mindblowing, I know.

But I guess that's the type of stuff that slips by when you rush to retort condescendingly like a 14 year old who forgot to take his ritalin.

 

[Euro Twins]

Were the teams that went on to greater success composed the same way when he was the coach? Or did their rosters improve to enable that success? Whatever way you slice it, he's been personally successful at his 3 previous teams, period. And since it seems to need mentioning, Gerard Gallant, Bob Hartley, and Dan Bylsma are three entirely different people. You're the one who brought up the latter two completely out of the blue. And Gallant was nominated for the Jack Adams in 2016, won in 2018, and nominated again in 2022. He's either won or been nominated for 1/3 of the last decade. Yet you bring up two coaches who haven't had success in a decade or more. Nice cherry-picking there.

As far as Lafreniere is concerned, could it possibly be that he just needed a few years to find his identity and carve out a role for himself in the NHL? Surely not, it must be the coach's fault that a 19-20 year old didn't tear up the league. Give me a break. Lafreniere had a lacklustre rookie season as well, which was the year prior to Gallant taking over. Was that his fault too? Lafreniere went from 39 pts in 81 games in his D+3 under Gallant to 57 points in 82 games this past season in his D+4. Lucas Raymond went from 45 pts in 74 games in his D+3 to 72 pts in 82 games in his D+4, both under the same coach. Here's a newsflash for you, young players not named Crosby or McDavid need a few years to find their game. Mindblowing, I know.

But I guess that's the type of stuff that slips by when you rush to retort condescendingly like a 14 year old who forgot to take his ritalin.

We got the better player in Raymond. Dodged a bullet not getting the first pick in that draft. Stutzle would be the only player in would like ahead of razor

 

[The Zermanator]

We got the better player in Raymond. Dodged a bullet not getting the first pick in that draft. Stutzle would be the only player in would like ahead of razor

Definitely thrilled with Raymond. And agreed about Stutzle. Though a career is a marathon and not a sprint, so wouldn't surprise me if Raymond ended up the better player in the end. I don't think he's hit his ceiling at 70 points. We're very fortunate to have him.

 

[Euro Twins]

Definitely thrilled with Raymond. And agreed about Stutzle. Though a career is a marathon and not a sprint, so wouldn't surprise me if Raymond ended up the better player in the end. I don't think he's hit his ceiling at 70 points. We're very fortunate to have him.

The only reason I'd like stutzle over razor is because we desperately need a #1 center.

I like razor better though. His face doesn't look so punchable

 

[jkutswings]

Yeah, injuries happen and they need to be dealt with. The fact that it happened twice undercuts your argument. Larkin wasn't out for the first one. But if you're starting from the position that those losing streaks were acceptable and bound to happen, then I doubt there's anything I could say to convince you anyway. I expect more out of the coach than what I saw for 1/3 of the season.

My beef with Lalonde is that I didn't see him doing anything about it. The timeouts issue has been discussed at length, but it's kind of a microcosm of his coaching: sit there as a passenger and see if the players can figure out out themselves.

When you give up multiple goals in short order, call a timeout. When you've already had a long losing streak and now you're 4-5 games into a second one, shake up the lineup or take other noticeable measures to try to address it.

This season felt like he didn't know how to respond to adversity in general.

 

[The Zermanator]

My beef with Lalonde is that I didn't see him doing anything about it. The timeouts issue has been discussed at length, but it's kind of a microcosm of his coaching: sit there as a passenger and see if the players can figure out out themselves.

When you give up multiple goals in short order, call a timeout. When you've already had a long losing streak and now you're 4-5 games into a second one, shake up the lineup or take other noticeable measures to try to address it.

This season felt like he didn't know how to respond to adversity in general.

Yeah I agree with this. Trying to be hands off and let the players figure it out themselves is fine for the first few games of a losing streak. If they manage to turn it around, it helps build character and reinforces the team's collective identity. But once it starts dragging on it has the opposite effect and just becomes a downward spiral. That's when the coach needs to actively step in and put a stop to it. The carrot and the stick.

Not that he would be my ideal choice for a coach necessarily, but guaranteed those losing streaks wouldn't have dragged on like they did if Tortorella was the coach.

 

[Euro Twins]

Yeah I agree with this. Trying to be hands off and let the players figure it out themselves is fine for the first few games of a losing streak. If they manage to turn it around, it helps build character and reinforces the team's collective identity. But once it starts dragging on it has the opposite effect and just becomes a downward spiral. That's when the coach needs to actively step in and put a stop to it. The carrot and the stick.

Not that he would be my ideal choice for a coach necessarily, but guaranteed those losing streaks wouldn't have dragged on like they did if Tortorella was the coach.

No one wants to play for torts for a reason.

 

[The Zermanator]

No one wants to play for torts for a reason.

I did say he wouldn't be my ideal choice, was only saying he wouldn't allow an extended slide like that.

But your claim would seem to fly in the face of available evidence, many players he's coached have been quite complimentary of him.

Tortorella: In the Words of His Players - The Hockey Writers Latest News, Analysis & More

Former Blue Jackets coach John Tortorella, vilified by the media, beloved by his players.

thehockeywriters.com

He's a fiery personality, no doubt. But he's never been an abusive coach ala Keenan or Babcock. He doesn't cross the line in that way. He has high expectations of his players but he's also shown on many occasions that he has their backs too.

He's an excellent coach in two respects: Maintaining a minimum baseline of play with his teams, and separating the wheat from the chaff. Because if any player doesn't like him because he makes them practice hard when they play poorly and has minimum expectations for two-way play, then that's a good indication to move on from that player because they don't have the attitude of a winner. Lack of commitment to improving their game and being a more responsible 200-foot player = lack of commitment to the team and its success.

 

[jkutswings]

No one wants to play for torts for a reason.

That wasn't the point. The point is that every team faces adversity at some point during the season, and part of the responsibilities of an NHL head coach is finding a way to stop the bleeding when things go pear-shaped.

 

[raymond23]

The only reason I'd like stutzle over razor is because we desperately need a #1 center.

I like razor better though. His face doesn't look so punchable

The Larkin disrespect is crazy. He's so much better than Stutzle

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

Stutzle is s-a-w-f-t sawft, I’m taking Raymond.

 

[Euro Twins]

I did say he wouldn't be my ideal choice, was only saying he wouldn't allow an extended slide like that.

But your claim would seem to fly in the face of available evidence, many players he's coached have been quite complimentary of him.

Tortorella: In the Words of His Players - The Hockey Writers Latest News, Analysis & More

Former Blue Jackets coach John Tortorella, vilified by the media, beloved by his players.

thehockeywriters.com

He's a fiery personality, no doubt. But he's never been an abusive coach ala Keenan or Babcock. He doesn't cross the line in that way. He has high expectations of his players but he's also shown on many occasions that he has their backs too.

He's an excellent coach in two respects: Maintaining a minimum baseline of play with his teams, and separating the wheat from the chaff. Because if any player doesn't like him because he makes them practice hard when they play poorly and has minimum expectations for two-way play, then that's a good indication to move on from that player because they don't have the attitude of a winner. Lack of commitment to improving their game and being a more responsible 200-foot player = lack of commitment to the team and its success.

Then how does he lose the locker room after 2 seasons on every team he coaches?

It would seem these players respect him, especially after he's gone. Maybe even miss what he brought to the table, but in the moment after 2 seasons they become numb to his style

That wasn't the point. The point is that every team faces adversity at some point during the season, and part of the responsibilities of an NHL head coach is finding a way to stop the bleeding when things go pear-shaped.

Sure. But at what expense also. Ignoring half the story to make your point doesn't work in reality. In the short term it's great but long term players have enough of your style and stop playing. So it kind of is the point. He has a few good years on every team he coaches then the team winning consistently goes downhill.

 

[Euro Twins]

The Larkin disrespect is crazy. He's so much better than Stutzle

I don't disrespect Larkin. And currently yes. But not when he was stutzles age. Larkin has matured into a very serviceable #1 center. But we would have been way better off with a 1a/1b center situation. And stutzle has lots of time to surpass Larkin still

 

[The Zermanator]

Then how does he lose the locker room after 2 seasons on every team he coaches?

It would seem these players respect him, especially after he's gone. Maybe even miss what he brought to the table, but in the moment after 2 seasons they become numb to his style

I mean, I gave you a source so if you're going to make a claim like that you should back it up with something.

And even if you want to believe that, you should consider the following:

What Predicts Whether an NHL Coach Will Be Fired, And Whether It Matters

Edmonton Oilers coach Ralph Krueger was on vacation in Switzerland last June when Skype popped up with a contact request. It was from Craig MacTavish, who had b…

fivethirtyeight.com

NHL head coaches have one of the highest turnover rates in major sports; their average tenure is currently 2.4 years.

Tortorella was with Tampa for 7 seasons, the Rangers for 5 seasons, and the Blue Jackets for 6 seasons. Only Vancouver (1 season) was less than the average. He will surpass it once again with Philly this season. Over the 5 teams he's coached over his career, he's had an average tenure of over 5 seasons, so he's outperforming the league average by more than double. Kinda hard to believe he spent 5 seasons in Tampa, 3 in NY, and 4 in Columbus with a "lost locker room".

Tortorella is an underrated coach.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Hey, guess what. We picked fourth and Stutzle wasn't available. By every indication, we were taking Stutzle if we had pick 1, 2, or 3. But we just got dropped 3 slots. It worked out fine because Raymond is a fantastic player... but Stutzle probably would have been the pick if we had our choice.

And keep John Tortorella away from this team. I'm all for a red-ass coach every now and again, but bringing him in and expecting his message to stick is like bringing in Alex Semin on a long term deal and expecting him to try hard every year. There is a wealth of evidence that Torts has a ludicrously short shelf life as a coach. The Wings problem, by the way, isn't fire or grit or anything that a red-ass would fix. The Wings have an overall talent deficiency. Torts could maybe have worked with the 16-18 Wings when it was pretty much Larkin and Bertuzzi plus the corpses of DDK, Kronner, Ericsson, and Zetterberg who gave a damn every night and guys like AA, Zadina, Mantha, etc. who would be coasting and need someone to threaten to break their foot off in their ass.

Naw, the Wings just overall haven't been a good enough team top to bottom for a coach to matter.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

I mean, I gave you a source so if you're going to make a claim like that you should back it up with something.

And even if you want to believe that, you should consider the following:

What Predicts Whether an NHL Coach Will Be Fired, And Whether It Matters

Edmonton Oilers coach Ralph Krueger was on vacation in Switzerland last June when Skype popped up with a contact request. It was from Craig MacTavish, who had b…

fivethirtyeight.com

Tortorella was with Tampa for 7 seasons, the Rangers for 5 seasons, and the Blue Jackets for 6 seasons. Only Vancouver (1 season) and Philadelphia (2 seasons) were less than the average. Over the 5 teams he's coached over his career, he's had an average tenure of over 5 seasons, so he's outperforming the league average by more than double. Kinda hard to believe he spent 5 seasons in Tampa, 3 in NY, and 4 in Columbus with a "lost locker room".

Tortorella is an underrated coach.

That may be. He's not the right coach for this roster.

 

[The Zermanator]

That may be. He's not the right coach for this roster.

Were you under the impression that's what I was arguing? I've said more than once now he wouldn't be my ideal pick.

Correcting the record about Tortorella ≠ wanting him to be the Wings coach.

 

[jkutswings]

Yeah, I think people are getting fixated on Torts. Throw his name out and return to what spawned the reference:

This past season Lalonde simply did not act during periods of adversity. He tried to let the players handle it all, no matter how many goals they surrended in a game or how many games in a row they lost during a bad streak.

Now I'd argue that the above is unacceptable regardless of how good or bad a roster is. Eventually you need to do your job and step in. But the fact that it happened on a roster that missed the playoffs by one point should be infuriating.

Even if I'm completely whelmed by the talent, the majority of the coaches around the league could have gotten Detroit into the playoffs, just by occasionally taking charge when it's obvious that it's necessary.

 

[PajamaBoy]

Were the teams that went on to greater success composed the same way when he was the coach? Or did their rosters improve to enable that success? Whatever way you slice it, he's been personally successful at his 3 previous teams, period. And since it seems to need mentioning, Gerard Gallant, Bob Hartley, and Dan Bylsma are three entirely different people. You're the one who brought up the latter two completely out of the blue. And Gallant was nominated for the Jack Adams in 2016, won in 2018, and nominated again in 2022. He's either won or been nominated for 1/3 of the last decade. Yet you bring up two coaches who haven't had success in a decade or more. Nice cherry-picking there.

As far as Lafreniere is concerned, could it possibly be that he just needed a few years to find his identity and carve out a role for himself in the NHL? Surely not, it must be the coach's fault that a 19-20 year old didn't tear up the league. Give me a break. Lafreniere had a lacklustre rookie season as well, which was the year prior to Gallant taking over. Was that his fault too? Lafreniere went from 39 pts in 81 games in his D+3 under Gallant to 57 points in 82 games this past season in his D+4. Lucas Raymond went from 45 pts in 74 games in his D+3 to 72 pts in 82 games in his D+4, both under the same coach. Here's a newsflash for you, young players not named Crosby or McDavid need a few years to find their game. Mindblowing, I know.

But I guess that's the type of stuff that slips by when you rush to retort condescendingly like a 14 year old who forgot to take his ritalin.

What kind of statement is I don't want gallant knowing Yzerman will have to fire him. The f*** is that supposed to even mean. Gallants a bum. Hopefully he's outta the league for good or far away from my team.

 

[The Zermanator]

What kind of statement is I don't want gallant knowing Yzerman will have to fire him. The f*** is that supposed to even mean. Gallants a bum. Hopefully he's outta the league for good or far away from my team.

I don't know what that's supposed to mean, either. But you certainly seem extra confused, considering it was an entirely different poster who said that...

If it doesn't work out with Lalonde I'd like to see Gallant because he's a good coach. His track record proves that a lot more than some anonymous person on the internet who types like "LOL he's a bum rofl" proves the opposite.

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

Kinda funny to suggest Tortorella would have found a way to avoid the Wings' long losing streaks last season if he'd been behind the bench. After games of March 23, the Flyers were in third place, 10 games over .500 with 11 games remaining, Three points up on WC2 Detroit, four and six points up on Metro 4/5 Washington and NYI. Then they went on an eight-game winless streak (0-6-2) and were passed by all those teams. The tail end of that streak included road losses to Columbus and Montreal by four and six goals. Proven good coach that Torts allegedly is, you'd think he would have had his team ready to give the BJs and Habs a hard time at least with a playoff spot still up for grabs, some way to avoid the Flyers' season going into the toilet after he'd apparently done a pretty good job keeping a bad team in contention.

The previous season the Flyers had a 10-game winless streak (0-7-3) and after beating the Islanders lost two more, so a 1-9-3 stretch. A win vs. Colorado was followed by four more losses, two in OT. From Nov. 10 to Dec. 13, the Flyers won two of 18 games, earned nine of a potential 36 points. Shit happens for every coach and Tortorella has a history of bringing some of it on himself.

It's easy to be a critic of Lalonde and there are lots of good reasons for some of the criticism. But the proposed alternatives are almost never looked at with the same microscope. It happens with critics of every team, coach and player. The grass is always greener somewhere else but mostly because "somewhere else" is being viewed with green tinted sunglasses.

 

[tabness]

Lol. All those teams gone on to win presidents trophy and titles within 2-3 years of him leaving. Lafreniere looked like a bust under him not someone who develops young players. You want an overhyped players coach to come in? Lol man I don't understand this place. Hartley has two jack Adams should we interview him too? Damn Bylsma has a ring but theirs a reason it took a decade before amnesia set into to make us forget how truly shit he was.

How can someone dread hiring a career loser like gallant with the fear of our modern legend firing him .. what are these statements lol

did Gallant like snub you for an autograph as a kid or something lol?

 

[lilidk]

Definitely thrilled with Raymond. And agreed about Stutzle. Though a career is a marathon and not a sprint, so wouldn't surprise me if Raymond ended up the better player in the end. I don't think he's hit his ceiling at 70 points. We're very fortunate to have him.

We will know how fortunate we with Raymond after he signed his contract . McKinnon second contact was 7 years 6.3 per.
Still we don't know nothing about negotiations with Seider, Raymond, Berggren and Veleno.