Speculation: LA Kings News, Rumors, Roster Thread part VII

[cyclones22]

Youre wrong. He looked great in his first couple games. Did you watch last game? Brown couldnt give or take a pass. Neither winger could get it out of the zone until byfield came in and helped making it impossible to get up ice. You put number two overall in the best position to succeed and if he fails you demote him. You dont tie his hands behind his back and ask him to carry two anchors that not even Kopitar could carry this year. Hyman is 10x the linemate aa is and Kassian at that time was better than brown is now.

The AA effect

Num	Time	%	Players	GF	GA	+/-	SF	SA	SF%	CF	CA	CF%
1	48:06	58.0	DUSTIN BROWN - ANDREAS ATHANASIOU - QUINTON BYFIELD	1	3	-2	15	30	33.3	24	45	34.8
2	21:47	26.2	DUSTIN BROWN - CARL GRUNDSTROM - QUINTON BYFIELD	1	0	1	17	10	63.0	25	15	62.5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Fishhead]

At this point the writing is on the wall with Brown, especially with his energy levels. I have no doubt he looks OK in practice, he's been around a long time and knows what to do on the ice. His body isn't reacting any longer, which is why he scores in bunches. It wouldn't surprise me to see him put together a few good games here as we had a long layoff. Same thing happened when he came out of protocol, same thing happened at the beginning of the season.

If anything good is coming out of him playing regularly, it's that his overall metrics are OK so he's not a terrible defensive liability (even with AA as a linemate) and it's fairly clear that he's not going to fit going forward. I think everyone would benefit if he just played spot games here and there, he can still be effective if his body recovers. He needs a week off after playing a few games or he falls apart. He's on pace for 36 points this year which isn't terrible for a 3rd liner, but 5 of his 20 came in the first 5 games of the year and another 5 came in the 4 games after he returned from protocol. He's finally reached a point in his career where his mind is outperforming his body, which is weird to say.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

At this point the writing is on the wall with Brown, especially with his energy levels. I have no doubt he looks OK in practice, he's been around a long time and knows what to do on the ice. His body isn't reacting any longer, which is why he scores in bunches. It wouldn't surprise me to see him put together a few good games here as we had a long layoff. Same thing happened when he came out of protocol, same thing happened at the beginning of the season.

If anything good is coming out of him playing regularly, it's that his overall metrics are OK so he's not a terrible defensive liability (even with AA as a linemate) and it's fairly clear that he's not going to fit going forward. I think everyone would benefit if he just played spot games here and there, he can still be effective if his body recovers. He needs a week off after playing a few games or he falls apart. He's on pace for 36 points this year which isn't terrible for a 3rd liner, but 5 of his 20 came in the first 5 games of the year and another 5 came in the 4 games after he returned from protocol. He's finally reached a point in his career where his mind is outperforming his body, which is weird to say.

Brown is not coming back, not as a player, but you absolutely use him to mentor kids like Byfield, Brown, Kopitar, Quick, Doughty, those are who the kids are learning how to be pro's, from and you can't replace that, and I'm not talking about learning the game, I'm talking about learning how to be a pro, level the emotions, do the work, don't take short cuts etc, that's an important role, and everyone is bitching about it like it's replaceable and Brown is gonna be around for another 10 years....

Brown has always been streaky, not sure if you can blame that on age or not at this point....

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Youre wrong. He looked great in his first couple games. Did you watch last game? Brown couldnt give or take a pass. Neither winger could get it out of the zone until byfield came in and helped making it impossible to get up ice. You put number two overall in the best position to succeed and if he fails you demote him. You dont tie his hands behind his back and ask him to carry two anchors that not even Kopitar could carry this year. Hyman is 10x the linemate aa is and Kassian at that time was better than brown is now.

Byfield looked good his first game, he's been up and down, that's part of learning the game at the NHL level, he's adjusting to it, would it help to have better linemates sure no one is arguing that it's not, but to argue that Byfield has been playing great is.....a bit much, he hasn't. To argue that Byfield's lack of assertiveness is due to ice time is nonsense, due to linemates, nonsense, his lack of assertiveness is at first, his adjustment to the speed of the game, and now, it's because he's respecting his opponents too much, which is what TM is referencing when he talks about asking permission... has nothing to do with Brown, AA, Grundstrom, or anyone else.....he needs to start taking the game over, when he has the ice time, and that's not talking about taking the puck end to end etc, but just doing the small little things right consistently would be a huge step up.

 

[Schmooley]

Byfield looked good his first game, he's been up and down, that's part of learning the game at the NHL level, he's adjusting to it, would it help to have better linemates sure no one is arguing that it's not, but to argue that Byfield has been playing great is.....a bit much, he hasn't. To argue that Byfield's lack of assertiveness is due to ice time is nonsense, due to linemates, nonsense, his lack of assertiveness is at first, his adjustment to the speed of the game, and now, it's because he's respecting his opponents too much, which is what TM is referencing when he talks about asking permission... has nothing to do with Brown, AA, Grundstrom, or anyone else.....he needs to start taking the game over, when he has the ice time, and that's not talking about taking the puck end to end etc, but just doing the small little things right consistently would be a huge step up.

Yea I agree with a lot of that. He looks like a different player than his first couple games. I just think a lot of it has to do with fear of making a mistake because he got benched for it. So hes playing very conservative and at the same time has nothing going with his linemates. Both of which havent shown ability to play with anyone this year. I think last game was a good example of no matter what he did nothing was going. One pass he hit brown right on the tape and he couldnt handle it and the puck went back into his zone. By the time they get it down ice they need a line change or hes hanging high because he knows the rush is coming back. If he misreads it and commits hes getting benched. A lot of people on this board called exactly this moment the day he got called up. Were just hockey fans on a message board and we can see it I just dont get how professionals cant and think its somehow gonna be different than the last 5 guys they tried to pigeonhole into something that isnt there.

 

[funky]

Byfield’s 19 and new to the league. I am quite confident he will figure things out

Todd’s 54 and been in the league 30ish years and I can’t say I feel the same way. Rinse, fail, repeat.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Yea I agree with a lot of that. He looks like a different player than his first couple games. I just think a lot of it has to do with fear of making a mistake because he got benched for it. So hes playing very conservative and at the same time has nothing going with his linemates. Both of which havent shown ability to play with anyone this year. I think last game was a good example of no matter what he did nothing was going. One pass he hit brown right on the tape and he couldnt handle it and the puck went back into his zone. By the time they get it down ice they need a line change or hes hanging high because he knows the rush is coming back. If he misreads it and commits hes getting benched. A lot of people on this board called exactly this moment the day he got called up. Were just hockey fans on a message board and we can see it I just dont get how professionals cant and think its somehow gonna be different than the last 5 guys they tried to pigeonhole into something that isnt there.

Because you are looking at results, see, that pass didn't work out, so better linemates,

They are looking, nice vision on the pass, keep that up, or, there was a better option, take a beat and look for it....

Again, results vs process

 

[Fat Elvis]

Because you are looking at results, see, that pass didn't work out, so better linemates,

They are looking, nice vision on the pass, keep that up, or, there was a better option, take a beat and look for it....

Again, results vs process

Yes true. But in the last game specifically, 23 was the "option" but the puck was immediately lost. Why didn't it work? Was it pass execution or on the receiving end? A lot of the Oiler game, the issue was on the receiving end. That can make QB look less effective. QB has not been a world beater by any means, but his linemates sure are not helping him out as planned.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Yes true. But in the last game specifically, 23 was the "option" but the puck was immediately lost. Why didn't it work? Was it pass execution or on the receiving end? A lot of the Oiler game, the issue was on the receiving end. That can make QB look less effective. QB has not been a world beater by any means, but his linemates sure are not helping him out as planned.

It only makes QB look less effective, if you are looking at the results, that is what I am saying,

If you are only looking for results, then you will take whatever is there, but if you are looking at the process, decision making etc, then it doesn't matter what his linemates do, does anyone really think that TM and Blake think that Brown and AA are gonna be long term options? No, of course not, so then it's all about the process, doesn't matter if DB booted 100 passes, if those 100 passes by Byfield were the result of right decision making etc.

 

[johnjm22]

TMac's comments are fine.

Byfield has not been good.

Playing QB with AA and Brown is dumb.

 

[johnjm22]

Frankly I'm baffled by TMac's handling of AA. Athanasiou is typically the type of player that coaches hate.

AA has skill, and he has his moments, but he flat lined awhile ago.

It's blatantly obvious that the "3rd line" isn't working. It's a perfectly reasonable expectation that our coach should make changes to it until something clicks.

Grundstrom should absolutely be in the lineup over Brown/AA.

 

[Herby]

By field would be better off in Ontario playing big minutes than being saddled with Brown. Anyone can see that Brown is hurting this team. Loyalty only goes so far. It’s time to hang them up, Dustin

I agree 100% on Brown. As I've said before we have officially entered Richards territory where he is just noticeably bad on almost every shift, with Richards, Sutter refused to take him out of the lineup so DL had to waive him, as far as I can tell Brown has a no-movement so that isn't an option. All Blake can do is tell TM that he has to sit him, which amazingly he hasn't done yet.

But yo-yo'ing QB back to the AHL is not something that is going to benefit his development. The Kings need to figure out a way to start making some progress in his development, and that has to happen in LA. He is already lagging behind where he should be, they can't make it worse.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I agree 100% on Brown. As I've said before we have officially entered Richards territory where he is just noticeably bad on almost every shift, with Richards, Sutter refused to take him out of the lineup so DL had to waive him, as far as I can tell Brown has a no-movement so that isn't an option. All Blake can do is tell TM that he has to sit him, which amazingly he hasn't done yet.

But yo-yo'ing QB back to the AHL is not something that is going to benefit his development. The Kings need to figure out a way to start making some progress in his development, and that has to happen in LA. He is already lagging behind where he should be, they can't make it worse.

'The bold is what kills me, lagging where he should be......BASED ON WHAT exactly? Based on other players? Not sure that's a fair comparison, based on players from decades ago? Same thing, not a fair comparison, compared to...his draft class? Again I go to the argument, it was KNOWN he was not NHL ready.....so where exactly should he be?

 

[Herby]

'The bold is what kills me, lagging where he should be......BASED ON WHAT exactly? Based on other players? Not sure that's a fair comparison, based on players from decades ago? Same thing, not a fair comparison, compared to...his draft class? Again I go to the argument, it was KNOWN he was not NHL ready.....so where exactly should he be?

Again? I gave you a long answer in the other thread, but as you do with everyone else you choose to ignore it or not address it? Decades ago? No teams have done the same thing with 2OA picks right up to the present day.

Why is he lagging behind?

He is lagging behind because he should have 65 games of NHL experience instead of 14.
He is lagging behind because he doesn't seem to have gained anything last year in the AHL that is being put to use in the NHL. Shouldn't a season in the AHL have had him more prepared for the NHL and gained the trust of his coach? It hasn't, because it's not a league for players of his caliber to be playing.

Just like with Turcotte, do you think most NHL teams would have put QB and Turcotte in the AHL last year? Is it not fair to question a GM who goes against traditional norms of development for the two highest picks he probably will ever make? Is that just being to negative for you?

 

[Kudelski37]

Frankly I'm baffled by TMac's handling of AA. Athanasiou is typically the type of player that coaches hate.

AA has skill, and he has his moments, but he flat lined awhile ago.

It's blatantly obvious that the "3rd line" isn't working. It's a perfectly reasonable expectation that our coach should make changes to it until something clicks.

Grundstrom should absolutely be in the lineup over Brown/AA.

Practice report said Grunstrom had more time than AA on the third line. It would be helpful for AA to sit Friday.

 

[Fat Elvis]

It only makes QB look less effective, if you are looking at the results, that is what I am saying,

If you are only looking for results, then you will take whatever is there, but if you are looking at the process, decision making etc, then it doesn't matter what his linemates do, does anyone really think that TM and Blake think that Brown and AA are gonna be long term options? No, of course not, so then it's all about the process, doesn't matter if DB booted 100 passes, if those 100 passes by Byfield were the result of right decision making etc.

True but results can't be ignored.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Again? I gave you a long answer in the other thread, but as you do with everyone else you choose to ignore it or not address it? Decades ago? No teams have done the same thing with 2OA picks right up to the present day.

Why is he lagging behind?

He is lagging behind because he should have 65 games of NHL experience instead of 14.
He is lagging behind because he doesn't seem to have gained anything last year in the AHL that is being put to use in the NHL. Shouldn't a season in the AHL have had him more prepared for the NHL and gained the trust of his coach? It hasn't, because it's not a league for players of his caliber to be playing.

Just like with Turcotte, do you think most NHL teams would have put QB and Turcotte in the AHL last year? Is it not fair to question a GM who goes against traditional norms of development for the two highest picks he probably will ever make? Is that just being to negative for you?

I'm not sure if calling 32 games.....a season..... so let's start with that, he was slated to make the team this year out of camp, so that's what, 40 games he would have had, putting his experience at 54 games, much closer to your 65 standard..... what do you think he isn't putting to use, are you saying he didn't learn anything in 32 games? Shocker...but let's say he didn't, is that on him or the organization? Again, we drafted Byfield KNOWING HE WASN'T READY FOR THE NHL....and your biggest knock....is that he didn't play in the NHL.......figure that one out

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

True but results can't be ignored.

Nope, but when you are developing a player, process and decision making trump results 1000 times over.....

Byfield makes 100 great passes......100 great decisions.......no results cuz Brown, ice time, the shoe fly, etc, does that mean he isn't progressing?

 

[Fat Elvis]

Nope, but when you are developing a player, process and decision making trump results 1000 times over.....

Byfield makes 100 great passes......100 great decisions.......no results cuz Brown, ice time, the shoe fly, etc, does that mean he isn't progressing?

Understood, and I think we're not really disagreeing. Well, I'm not sure. I think QB would "progress" quicker if he had more effective linemates. He's spending most of his shifts covering for mistakes from his linemates. Most of us are suggesting replacing them with any number of available wingers to see "results" from said good decisions.
Well, Hell I'm not a writer so I may be mucking up my point.

 

[Herby]

I'm not sure if calling 32 games.....a season..... so let's start with that, he was slated to make the team this year out of camp, so that's what, 40 games he would have had, putting his experience at 54 games, much closer to your 65 standard..... what do you think he isn't putting to use, are you saying he didn't learn anything in 32 games? Shocker...but let's say he didn't, is that on him or the organization? Again, we drafted Byfield KNOWING HE WASN'T READY FOR THE NHL....and your biggest knock....is that he didn't play in the NHL.......figure that one out

Even if he wasn't ready to be impactful doesn't mean he shouldn't have been in the NHL! A lot of the guys listed were not ready to be impactful NHL'ers either, yet they played in the league at that age and most turned out fine.What is different about QB than all those other guys? I mean how many times does this point have to be drilled in. Or are you saying that QB is one of the worst players drafted in the Top 2-3 in the last 15 years?

As for your numbers, no I was not accounting for his injury, as his injury in this years camp was not effected at all by where he played last season. My point was, whenever he made his NHL debut this season, whether it was opening night (hypothetical no injury) or when he did it should have been with significantly more NHL games under his belt than he had.

Are you saying that you believe that Blake's development of QB (and Turcotte) last season was optimal for their overall development?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Understood, and I think we're not really disagreeing. Well, I'm not sure. I think QB would "progress" quicker if he had more effective linemates. He's spending most of his shifts covering for mistakes from his linemates. Most of us are suggesting replacing them with any number of available wingers to see "results" from said good decisions.
Well, Hell I'm not a writer so I may be mucking up my point.

No, I get your point, and I think the results would be there, with better linemates, for for Byfield personally, I don't care about the results, I want to see him making quick, decisive, RIGHT decisions, and he's not there yet.

 

[DoktorJeep]

QB was drafted because he projected to be a game breaker. There is no opportunity to show that consistently on the Kings when you play the least minutes at your position. Expecting a kid to flash talent more than 50% of his shifts is unrealistic. So playing down the line up just means fewer reps against players you need to beat in order to gain experience. It’s not a flawed approach but it’s conservative and no guarantee of a payoff.

Playing fourth line minutes isn’t a problem because it’s better experience for him than the minors. And on the fourth line, the linemates shouldn’t matter and neither does production. If they do, it means the rest of the roster has significant challenges.

Todd’s quote was benign, but it points to a communications breakdown. The right thing to say is that Lizottes line is the third line and talk about how Kaliyev and Lemieux have grown while earning more minutes by playing aggressively. And now it is QBs time to anchor the fourth line and he’s expected to pick up the pace with the lessened responsibilities and he has two vets to help him.

The only flaw in that message is you’re admitting Brown and AA are fourth liners and they should expect around 10 minutes a game. You lose face at all levels of the organization with that story line. So I can see why it’s just easier to tell some season ticket holder with a blog who hangs out at the practice rink that your future game breaker needs to realize he’s a pro now and pick up the slack after his first bad game. I only hope that QB got the message one on one before Todd spoke to the media mouthpieces.

 

[KINGS17]

QB was drafted because he projected to be a game breaker. There is no opportunity to show that consistently on the Kings when you play the least minutes at your position. Expecting a kid to flash talent more than 50% of his shifts is unrealistic. So playing down the line up just means fewer reps against players you need to beat in order to gain experience. It’s not a flawed approach but it’s conservative and no guarantee of a payoff.

Playing fourth line minutes isn’t a problem because it’s better experience for him than the minors. And on the fourth line, the linemates shouldn’t matter and neither does production. If they do, it means the rest of the roster has significant challenges.

Todd’s quote was benign, but it points to a communications breakdown. The right thing to say is that Lizottes line is the third line and talk about how Kaliyev and Lemieux have grown while earning more minutes by playing aggressively. And now it is QBs time to anchor the fourth line and he’s expected to pick up the pace with the lessened responsibilities and he has two vets to help him.

The only flaw in that message is you’re admitting Brown and AA are fourth liners and they should expect around 10 minutes a game. You lose face at all levels of the organization with that story line. So I can see why it’s just easier to tell some season ticket holder with a blog who hangs out at the practice rink that your future game breaker needs to realize he’s a pro now and pick up the slack after his first bad game. I only hope that QB got the message one on one before Todd spoke to the media mouthpieces.

Yup, the Kings had no problem handing Kopitar the 1C job on his arrival. I don't see why this should be any different.

Kopitar would still get most of his current minutes, but it should be Byfield on the #1 PP, and Byfield playing with the two best wingers on the team, not Kopitar.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Yup, the Kings had no problem handing Kopitar the 1C job on his arrival. I don't see why this should be any different.

Kopitar would still get most of his current minutes, but it should be Byfield on the #1 PP, and Byfield playing with the two best wingers on the team, not Kopitar.

If Derek Armstrong made $10M a year and was a cup winner, Kopitar would have started in Manchester.

I don’t think QB should be a #1C with the players on ahead of him in the pecking order. It pains me to say it but Danault is the best center on the team. He’s one goal behind Kopitar and plays less minutes. It’s like we have prime Handzus and journeyman Handzus on the roster at the same time and the journeyman is playing top minutes league wide.

 

[bland]

Yup, the Kings had no problem handing Kopitar the 1C job on his arrival. I don't see why this should be any different.

Kopitar would still get most of his current minutes, but it should be Byfield on the #1 PP, and Byfield playing with the two best wingers on the team, not Kopitar.

And Kopitar had no "mentor". So much has been made of that, but the reality is probably closer to it being a problem than a help because Byfield's play is being held to the standard of a team trying to make the playoffs as opposed to the development of your prime asset. He isn't being allowed to explore who he can be - he is being measured in terms of how he is helping the (lost) cause.

I have no doubt whatsoever that each of the top kids would be further along right now if the team wasn't foolishly chasing the playoffs for the Cup core. And they would actually be closer to competing in the playoffs in the nearer future as well. Lots of foot shooting going on in this organization.

You have to let talent shine thru before you hit the breaks. Learn how to check AFTER you learn how to apply your primary role - scoring - on the job.

This safety-first development is neutering the skill right out of these alpha dogs before they ever get to show it.