Speculation: LA Kings News, Rumors, Roster Thread part VII

[kilowatt]

For what it’s worth, I think Blake deserves a ton of credit for going out and filling the holes that he saw. Fiala, Danault, Arvidsson, Moore, and Lemieux were all great pickups. Hell, half of our top six was acquired in the last calendar year or so. If the Kings’ development plan is a six-year plan (a la Kempe), then these guys will be crucial for us to compete over the next couple of years. It’s not too dissimilar to the Lombardi cup years. Most of those guys were acquired by trade or free agent signing too.

I don’t mean this facetiously — I hope Vilardi and Turcotte are contributing top six players in a couple years. I think I just expected more out of these young kids than the team gave them an opportunity to achieve, and the kids didn’t do anything to force the issue.

I’m excited for our roster this year, I think it’s the best we’ve had since 2014 or 2016.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I don't have a problem with Tynan call up. He was putting up huge numbers in the AHL. The org gave him a game or 2 to see if he has NHL stuff or not. They got their answer . We;ll never see him up again. It's not like they gave him 15 games. The Kings have done this with others too over the years. Didn't they do this TJ Hensick, who was lighting up the AHL for them or maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

In a vacuum, I don't either. Reward a good soldier/leader/vet for what he's doing in the AHL. But it's just another example of not putting youth in those top-six/PP positions. Like I said, in this case, it came at the expense of a BUNCH of kids--could have easily moved Kaliyev up or Turcotte in or Byfield up or any number of things. The idea isn't 'one callup is bad,' it's that these things happen repeatedly and they always err on the side of age before beauty.

 

[kingsfan28]

I would expect Kaliyev to make the jump if they don't jerk him around. But remember this is an organization who passed up on him in the draft to take a lesser player and then put him on the 4th line to "Learn the Kings Way" and hardly played him on the PP despite being the best shooter on a team that struggled to score goals at even strength and especially on the PP.

Who knows what they do.

Just curious where you'd have put him last year, there weren't many top 6 forwards spots open, if any.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

For what it’s worth, I think Blake deserves a ton of credit for going out and filling the holes that he saw. Fiala, Danault, Arvidsson, Moore, and Lemieux were all great pickups. Hell, half of our top six was acquired in the last calendar year or so. If the Kings’ development plan is a six-year plan (a la Kempe), then these guys will be crucial for us to compete over the next couple of years. It’s not too dissimilar to the Lombardi cup years. Most of those guys were acquired by trade or free agent signing too.

I don’t mean this facetiously — I hope Vilardi and Turcotte are contributing top six players in a couple years. I think I just expected more out of these young kids than the team gave them an opportunity to achieve, and the kids didn’t do anything to force the issue.

I’m excited for our roster this year, I think it’s the best we’ve had since 2014 or 2016.

But I think this is where divergent opinions get unfairly criticized, frankly.

I was a BIG fan of the Danault and Arvidsson moves, history will show that. I love Fiala, etc. I think Blake has brought in great players with magnificent trades.

However--and I know a few posters felt this way as well and will remember--I ALSO thought this would be one of those things where they'd begin 'scaffolding' in the youth by supporting them with vets. IE I thought we'd see something like Arvidsson-Danault-Turcotte/Kaliyev to promote mentorship and development, not that they'd load up the top lines to be an average age of 30 and then throw all the kids in a pot together and punish them for making mistakes. It's the exact opposite of what you'd hope for with responsible awesome players like the aforementioned on the roster.

Kids can't force the issue when the offensive opportunities they get are 30 seconds of the back end of the powerplay fishing the puck out of the dzone because the vets were an unmitigated unaccountable shitshow at the other end for 1:30, or when you punish them for not playing the system when you have guys like Byfield passing to where AA SHOULD be but isn't because he's at the other blueline behind two dudes, or watching Vilardi get benched for getting sticklifted in the offensive zone while Brown casually turns the puck over and doesn't backcheck and gets his minutes increased.

In short I think you can hold both opinions without being hypocritical, I LOVE Blake's moves but I also HATE his handling of the kids around those moves and it's not like they're mutually exclusive. The selective accountability has to go, the shit handling of minutes has to go, the punishment for mistakes has to be managed better.

People say they expect improvement from the kids this year--my biggest expectation is improvement from coaching and management.

 

[kingsfan28]

In a vacuum, I don't either. Reward a good soldier/leader/vet for what he's doing in the AHL. But it's just another example of not putting youth in those top-six/PP positions. Like I said, in this case, it came at the expense of a BUNCH of kids--could have easily moved Kaliyev up or Turcotte in or Byfield up or any number of things. The idea isn't 'one callup is bad,' it's that these things happen repeatedly and they always err on the side of age before beauty.

I totally see what your saying. That was a weird time when he got called up. Lemieux got suspended and Lizzotte and others all got covid. Him and JAD got the call up. Would've been worth calling up Turcotte for 2 games?

 

[kilowatt]

But I think this is where divergent opinions get unfairly criticized, frankly.

I was a BIG fan of the Danault and Arvidsson moves, history will show that. I love Fiala, etc. I think Blake has brought in great players with magnificent trades.

However--and I know a few posters felt this way as well and will remember--I ALSO thought this would be one of those things where they'd begin 'scaffolding' in the youth by supporting them with vets. IE I thought we'd see something like Arvidsson-Danault-Turcotte/Kaliyev to promote mentorship and development, not that they'd load up the top lines to be an average age of 30 and then throw all the kids in a pot together and punish them for making mistakes. It's the exact opposite of what you'd hope for with responsible awesome players like the aforementioned on the roster.

Kids can't force the issue when the offensive opportunities they get are 30 seconds of the back end of the powerplay fishing the puck out of the dzone because the vets were an unmitigated unaccountable shitshow at the other end for 1:30, or when you punish them for not playing the system when you have guys like Byfield passing to where AA SHOULD be but isn't because he's at the other blueline behind two dudes, or watching Vilardi get benched for getting sticklifted in the offensive zone while Brown casually turns the puck over and doesn't backcheck and gets his minutes increased.

In short I think you can hold both opinions without being hypocritical, I LOVE Blake's moves but I also HATE his handling of the kids around those moves and it's not like they're mutually exclusive. The selective accountability has to go, the shit handling of minutes has to go, the punishment for mistakes has to be managed better.

People say they expect improvement from the kids this year--my biggest expectation is improvement from coaching and management.

I agree on all accounts. Hell, look at the lineups I (admittedly too frequently) post, they’ve always got a “rookie” on each line.

Speaking of, these guys aren’t really rookies anymore. A lot of them are older than Doughty when they won their first cup. Some older even than Kopitar. Kempe and Moore the same age as Brown. Wild.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Ask yourself how they managed 99 points last year when certain people (like yourself) considered the team garbage all season long...

They’re not garbage, but they’re not contenders, either. It’s not outlandish to suggest that a Byfield or Turcotte booming instead of busting puts them over the top.

The Kings don’t have a center close to Kopitar in the system. Danault is great but won’t be around forever. If Byfield and the rest of the centers bust, the Kings have no one down the middle, and they’ll continue getting beat by Mcdavid and Huberdeau for the next few years.

 

[Herby]

Just curious where you'd have put him last year, there weren't many top 6 forwards spots open, if any.

They should have been looking at any opening to put a young player into Iafallo's spot and I think Kaliyev should have been put there sometime last year . Iafallo was always going to be a third scoring line kind of guy and his horrific play last year should have necessitated a move down the lineup and off of the #1 PP.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

This is the part of the dance where I/others then point out with ample evidence that other contending teams have zero issue setting up their kids to succeed integrating their youth in top-6/top-4 positions and someone without evidence goes nuh-uh and we docey do, rinse, and repeat.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

When the top six/PP spot opened up, Tynan got the call instead of our top-5 pick.

Like I said I hope I'm wrong and this SHOULD be the year that changes but historically 'opportunity for youth' is not what those slots are for, we have nothing else to go by. And for a guy who said Kaliyev should be in the top six this year before trading for Fiala, what else should we rely on?

Like I said....how many games have did they play last year COMBINED.......wait...I got the answer.....2.

Yea, they are really pushing those aging veterans.....Tynan and Wagner.....

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Like I said....how many games have did they play last year COMBINED.......wait...I got the answer.....2.

Yea, they are really pushing those aging veterans.....Tynan and Wagner.....

It's called one example.

You know good and god damn well there are plenty of examples of similar things, and this one was only brought up as an example of who the vets are that they COULD use to cockblock roster spots this year, though we're all hoping they aren't, of course.

I used to NOT be cynical enough to believe that they'd ACTUALLY CALL UP TJ TYNAN over multiple lottery/1st round picks for a cup of coffee, but here we are, and thus the point is not so much who they'd specifically use and to the detriment of who, but rather that there's an existing, consistent pattern of veterans over youth. It's not "oh no, it's two games," it's that it's "oh no, it's 'x' games" over and over and over and....

But again, like Axl, /wetfart to bad faith discussion and dismissal of evidence.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

He thought I chose 2015 as an attempt to somehow lessen his boy Kempe. Hahaha, you can't even make this stuff up. Not like I chose 2015 because it was the start of a run where the Kings missed the playoffs 5 out of 8 years, na ofcourse not, it was to lessen Kempe, even though he didn't fit the criteria of the posts.

And you know the average path for most 1st line players in the league is to average 13 goals a season from age 20-24 and then have 35 goals at 25, that is just totally common for players not named McDavid. Don't sleep on Gabe Vilardi breaking out in 2025.

Kempe was barely old enough to rent a car!!

How did 45 points become the standard? Just curious on where that was pulled from....as far as 35 goal scorers being common not sure how common it is when there were 29 skaters who scored 35 or more last year, 24 the last full year, 2018-2019, 16 the year before that, 9 the year before that, and 8 the year before that....

It's called one example.

You know good and god damn well there are plenty of examples of similar things, and this one was only brought up as an example of who the vets are that they COULD use to cockblock roster spots this year, though we're all hoping they aren't, of course.

I used to NOT be cynical enough to believe that they'd ACTUALLY CALL UP TJ TYNAN over multiple lottery/1st round picks for a cup of coffee, but here we are, and thus the point is not so much who they'd specifically use and to the detriment of who, but rather that there's an existing, consistent pattern of veterans over youth.

But again, like Axl, /wetfart to bad faith discussion and dismissal of evidence.

Except they didn't, Kupari, Byfield, Kaliyev, all played a shit ton of games, then you have Turcotte, Fagemo have their cups of coffee.....JAD, Vilardi all played.....

You want to use examples, but forget everything that happened last year?

Tell me how many forwards under the age of 25 played last year?

 

[Herby]

This is the part of the dance where I/others then point out with ample evidence that other contending teams have zero issue setting up their kids to succeed integrating their youth in top-6/top-4 positions and someone without evidence goes nuh-uh and we docey do, rinse, and repeat.

It's...The Kings Way...though!!

How many teams have you managed pal?!
No team is putting "kids" who are "barely old enough to buy a beer" into the lineup of a playoff contender!
99 points and third in the Pacific man, who cares about developing the team to a contender!

And now presented with overwhelming evidence that other teams do indeed break players into their lineups "before they are old enough to buy a beer" we will get the strawman posts like the latest one where apparently we all think the Kings are completely doomed and will be the Coyotes for the next 20 years, because that is clearly what everyone is saying.

And actually it won't even matter, he saw the evidence I posted and just completely chose to ignore it even dropping a 'factual evidence' like everything I put up wasn't factual and instead tried to say Adrian Kempe was a 2nd liner at 21 with less than 30 points. He truly believes that only the McDavid's of the world are being inserted into lineups when they are "barely old enough to buy a beer" and everyone else treats development like the Kings. They have clearly demonstrated time and time again that what they think totally trumps actual reality. Like KP said, they are presented with detailed evidence time and time again and just choose to ignore it and continue deferring to the fantasy between their ears.

And yes, many of us can say that Blake has made some great moves with the NHL squad, great trades and signings last year, great trade by flipping a player he stole in the 2nd for a semi-star, we can all say those things but being critical of anything to do with the organization (except for Jesse's beard) means you are a miserable fan who hates the team.

It truly is something else to behold.

 

[Herby]

How did 45 points become the standard? Just curious on where that was pulled from....as far as 35 goal scorers being common not sure how common it is when there were 29 skaters who scored 35 or more last year, 24 the last full year, 2018-2019, 16 the year before that, 9 the year before that, and 8 the year before that....



Except they didn't, Kupari, Byfield, Kaliyev, all played a shit ton of games, then you have Turcotte, Fagemo have their cups of coffee.....JAD, Vilardi all played.....

You want to use examples, but forget everything that happened last year?

Tell me how many forwards under the age of 25 played last year?

Because 45 is a good number that makes a player a 2nd liner? I mean you can make it 40 and gain a few names or you can make it 50 and lose a couple, but it's not going to change the fact that you and Axl just are just ignorant to how many players are contributing in the league before their 21st or 22nd birthday. It's not 1997 anymore, this is a league where players on ELC's are counted on to contribute, even on contending teams.

Trevor Moore had 48 points last year, I feel like that is a pretty good range to call someone a 2nd liner.

What do you think is a good number to make someone a 2nd liner?

I don't know where you are coming from with the 35 goal thing, was that supposed to be directed at someone else? A 35 goal player in the NHL is very clearly a 1st line player.

 

[King'sPawn]

For what it's worth, I think a low-end 2nd-line forward is 35 points. That's where I HOPE 2 of the prospects hit next season (any first-year waiver eligible or younger, so, Byfield, Vilardi, Kaliyev, JAD, Turcotte, etc).

I think that's a pretty generous bar set for a team needing youth to step in.

Nobody,s expecting the prospects to be barn-burners, unlike what a select few are pretending to understand.

 

[ru4reals]

With Arvidsson out to start the season, there’s an open spot in the top nine right now. Who knows how things will shake out, let’s not forget that Arvidsson opened last season on Kopitar’s wing, but here’s my guess:

Fiala - Kopitar - Kempe
Moore - Danault - xxx
Iafallo - Byfield - xxx
Lemieux - Lizotte - xxx

We’ve got Grundstrom and Kaliyev who will almost certainly line up in two of those spots, and then Vilardi, Kupari, JAD, Andersson, and Fagemo fighting for the last three spots on the roster.

Were it up to me though, this is the roster I’d put out there:

Fiala - Kopitar - Kaliyev
Kempe - Byfield - Kupari
Moore - Danault - Vilardi
Iafallo - Lizotte - Fagemo

That’s a lot of youth on the right side but I think at the very least Kaliyev and Kupari are ready to play in the top six.

Dayum just heard about Arvidsson. And it starts already. Goodness sakes this team cannot catch a break.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Dayum just heard about Arvidsson. And it starts already. Goodness sakes this team cannot catch a break.

What did I miss?

 

[Herby]

Exactly. In LA you are expected to play a certain way, no matter how skilled you are. same goes with other teams. that's the way they're built. Ottawa and Anaheim are two pretty bad teams that let they're guys do whatever with out any reprisal. That's how bad habits form. At some point the coaches will tell those guy to dial it back and stop cherry picking or blowing the zone early because it's costing them wins.

But is the bolded part maybe a big issue why the Kings have been so bad at being able to get high end players into the NHL lineups? And this goes back well before the time Blake was GM.

Is the "Kings Way" damaging the offensive upside of players? I think a case can certainly be made that is a big issue with why players seem to plateau. I think with some of these guys there were evaluation errors, but if all of them disappoint or plateau and don't live up to draft slot it's just extremely unlikely all of them were evaluated wrong, so it's time to look elsewhere.

This is why I was so mad with the Turcotte pull, you just eliminate a guy from having a chance to have a breakthrough offensive year to turn him into as RJ says, "a good little checker". They probably damaged QB with the AHL year, who knows, they may have damaged Kaliyev's ceiling by having him be a 4th liner, we will see this year but you never know.

You need to let offensive players play to their strengths, and you need to let them develop confidence and have a chance to dominate levels before just pushing them into system players. If you want to make JAD's or Akil Thomas into complete system players that is one thing, but you have to let guys be the guys you believed in on draft night.

And I think most teams do that, it's not just Anaheim and Ottawa. The Kings IMO are the oddballs here with how they develop, not Ottawa and Anaheim.

Compare Ottawa's forwards Stutzle, Tkachuk, Norris vs LA's big 3 forwards. They were all drafted in pretty similar spots and the results have been night and day.

 

[King'sPawn]

But is the bolded part maybe a big issue why the Kings have been so bad at being able to get high end players into the NHL lineups? And this goes back well before the time Blake was GM.

Is the "Kings Way" damaging the offensive upside of players? I think a case can certainly be made that is a big issue with why players seem to plateau. I think with some of these guys there were evaluation errors, but if all of them disappoint or plateau and don't live up to draft slot it's just extremely unlikely all of them were evaluated wrong, so it's time to look elsewhere.

This is why I was so mad with the Turcotte pull, you just eliminate a guy from having a chance to have a breakthrough offensive year to turn him into as RJ says, "a good little checker". They probably damaged QB with the AHL year, who knows, they may have damaged Kaliyev's ceiling by having him be a 4th liner, we will see this year but you never know.

You need to let offensive players play to their strengths, and you need to let them develop confidence and have a chance to dominate levels before just pushing them into system players. If you want to make JAD's or Akil Thomas into complete system players that is one thing, but you have to let guys be the guys you believed in on draft night.

And I think most teams do that, it's not just Anaheim and Ottawa. The Kings IMO are the oddballs here with how they develop, not Ottawa and Anaheim.

Compare Ottawa's forwards Stutzle, Tkachuk, Norris vs LA's big 3 forwards. They were all drafted in pretty similar spots and the results have been night and day.

And thus comes the argument of "do you just want to GIVE prospects top-6 roles????"

No.

But I believe in letting the players try. If it's too much, scale back the responsibility so they can work on the facets that's inhibiting their success.

But truly, when was the last time a player age 20 or younger was put in a scoring role. Most recent I can think of is Oscar Moller. Am I misremembering?

Edit: I'll add and re-emphasize; waiting for injuries to happen for a player to get his shot is a terrible plan.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

What did I miss?

back surgery for herniated disc (why he was missing the playoffs) and out 3-5 months.

I'm sure they'll play it cautious and w/recovery as well as training so I think most of us expect him to miss the first month.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

This is why I was so mad with the Turcotte pull, you just eliminate a guy from having a chance to have a breakthrough offensive year to turn him into as RJ says, "a good little checker". They probably damaged QB with the AHL year, who knows, they may have damaged Kaliyev's ceiling by having him be a 4th liner, we will see this year but you never know.

Of course I'm willing to give it more time to play out, but if in the end Kaliyev succeeds and all the others fail, it would still seem to me that development is a failure as he'd be an exception rather than a rule. SOME players are going to succeed no matter what, but with so, so many guys not hitting their ceilings over so many years...like I don't know what it would take for some people to worry about it.

It's great that our 3rd-7th rounders typically exceed their values and that is a tribute to development--our staff is absolutely excellent at that. Kudos where they are due and almost no other team can do that. However, it seems they should maybe start sharing that secret with teams who are getting more out of the 1st-2nd rounds and handle blue-chip offensive talent better.

 

[Schmooley]

Of course I'm willing to give it more time to play out, but if in the end Kaliyev succeeds and all the others fail, it would still seem to me that development is a failure as he'd be an exception rather than a rule. SOME players are going to succeed no matter what, but with so, so many guys not hitting their ceilings over so many years...like I don't know what it would take for some people to worry about it.

It's great that our 3rd-7th rounders typically exceed their values and that is a tribute to development--our staff is absolutely excellent at that. Kudos where they are due and almost no other team can do that. However, it seems they should maybe start sharing that secret with teams who are getting more out of the 1st-2nd rounds and handle blue-chip offensive talent better.

Can go back to those recent interviews again and its apparent they do not treat top picks any different than 5th round picks. You get drafted by the Kings and become the player they want you to be regardless of your skillset. Kaliyev succeeding because he adapted to a new role doesnt change that they made a bottom six grinder out of a top six sniper.

 

[funky]

I am actually not upset about the even strength minutes given to the rookies. Let them battle in the trenches, learn their crafts flanked by or on the flank of a supporting vet or two

My problem was PP allotment. Especially the last half of the year when our vets started to struggle hard, possibly from to many minutes.

Kopitar is one of my favorite all time players. But at his age playing everything minutes gets to be too much. Let him be on PP2 and PK2. Save his legs, get better production from hime. Give some more time to the Kids.

These kids are so skilled and talented give them the first shot at open ice with an enemy in the box. Kaliyev was drafted for his lethal shot, Byfield for his big body and great hands. Put that beast in front of the net to cause havoc, screen goalies and tap in those goalmouth rebounds. Vilardi was made for the PP. All the youth can cycle pucks, move with the puck and get super creative. An extra two minutes a night on the PP could influence stats in a big way. Plus it would be a totally different look.

I could care less if Kaliyev is on the third line all year as long as he is put out on the Top PP unit to use his God given gifts he was drafted for. Vilardi as well. The PP starts in the opposition end so skating is t as big of deal and Byfield, Vilardi and Kaliyev are all big boys that can create space. After 10 games if they are not gelling try something else but give them a chance or at the very least alternate two PP units to give everyone equal PP minutes. Fiala will also help the PP.

 

[tny760]

I am actually not upset about the even strength minutes given to the rookies. Let them battle in the trenches, learn their crafts flanked by or on the flank of a supporting vet or two

My problem was PP allotment. Especially the last half of the year when our vets started to struggle hard, possibly from to many minutes.

Kopitar is one of my favorite all time players. But at his age playing everything minutes gets to be too much. Let him be on PP2 and PK2. Save his legs, get better production from hime. Give some more time to the Kids.

These kids are so skilled and talented give them the first shot at open ice with an enemy in the box. Kaliyev was drafted for his lethal shot, Byfield for his big body and great hands. Put that beast in front of the net to cause havoc, screen goalies and tap in those goalmouth rebounds. Vilardi was made for the PP. All the youth can cycle pucks, move with the puck and get super creative. An extra two minutes a night on the PP could influence stats in a big way. Plus it would be a totally different look.

I could care less if Kaliyev is on the third line all year as long as he is put out on the Top PP unit to use his God given gifts he was drafted for. Vilardi as well. The PP starts in the opposition end so skating is t as big of deal and Byfield, Vilardi and Kaliyev are all big boys that can create space. After 10 games if they are not gelling try something else but give them a chance or at the very least alternate two PP units to give everyone equal PP minutes. Fiala will also help the PP.

what, you don't like watching 35+ guys playing catch for 1:45?

 

[KINGS17]

It's...The Kings Way...though!!

How many teams have you managed pal?!
No team is putting "kids" who are "barely old enough to buy a beer" into the lineup of a playoff contender!
99 points and third in the Pacific man, who cares about developing the team to a contender!

And now presented with overwhelming evidence that other teams do indeed break players into their lineups "before they are old enough to buy a beer" we will get the strawman posts like the latest one where apparently we all think the Kings are completely doomed and will be the Coyotes for the next 20 years, because that is clearly what everyone is saying.

And actually it won't even matter, he saw the evidence I posted and just completely chose to ignore it even dropping a 'factual evidence' like everything I put up wasn't factual and instead tried to say Adrian Kempe was a 2nd liner at 21 with less than 30 points. He truly believes that only the McDavid's of the world are being inserted into lineups when they are "barely old enough to buy a beer" and everyone else treats development like the Kings. They have clearly demonstrated time and time again that what they think totally trumps actual reality. Like KP said, they are presented with detailed evidence time and time again and just choose to ignore it and continue deferring to the fantasy between their ears.

And yes, many of us can say that Blake has made some great moves with the NHL squad, great trades and signings last year, great trade by flipping a player he stole in the 2nd for a semi-star, we can all say those things but being critical of anything to do with the organization (except for Jesse's beard) means you are a miserable fan who hates the team.

It truly is something else to behold.

They need to ignore the "playoff" part of the "playoff contender" phrase, and focus on the "contender" portion.

The Kings are not contenders, and they won't be contenders again before Kopitar's contract expires. This is why they should be playing the kids with players like Fiala and Danault, and possibly Kopitar, not playing with a top six of players who are exclusively older than 25 or 26, and in many cases close to, or over 30 years of age.