LA KINGS 2023/4 Regular season discussion

[lexlavender]

OK, so because we don't know "what's going on in the room", there COULD actually be untold amounts of secret information and relationships that totally rationalize EVERY decision that Management has made over the last 5 years, and therefore we just need to be agnostic about everything and never criticize anything.

Great

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

OK, so because we don't know "what's going on in the room", there COULD actually be untold amounts of secret information and relationships that totally rationalize EVERY decision that Management has made over the last 5 years, and therefore we just need to be agnostic about everything and never criticize anything.

Great

Another one whose reading is not really up to par

You say they are mismanaging players, ok, how? How are you arriving at that conclusion?

Because they aren't playing in every game that you want them to be? Because that's really the only honest answer you can give.

 

[lexlavender]

Another one whose reading is not really up to par

Not sure what's hard to understand, it's one of two things....

1. Management, coaches, who have been around for decades, have absolutely no idea what they are doing, how to deal with professional hockey players, and are hoping the puck goes in the net every night.

2. Management believes they have the right mixture of players, and believes they have the right coach....for now, hence the 1 year oooooohhh extension of McClellan.

You say mismanagement of players like Kaliyev and Clarke as if you are behind the scenes talking to the players themselves and know exactly what is going on.....and that the call ups/benchings/ice time is solely because LA Management/coaches want to f*** with the players and no other reasons...why do you feel that way?

My guy, this is exactly what you said.

1. Management has some knowledge or expertise outside of what we can know, because they are professionals who have been in the league for a time, thus criticizing them is from a position of ignorance

2. It's inherently unknowable what management thinks of the team, it's composition, or the coach, so trying to figure that out based on their actions is pointless.

3. Regarding Kaliyev and Clark, we don't know what happens behind the scenes, so them not playing could be totally justified based on some information that we don't have.

It's such a freaking shitty argument because you're appealing to a lack of evidence to disprove people's criticism. No one can possible argue against you because you are appealing to information that isn't obtainable.

It's like saying a person who stabbed another person to death didn't commit murder:

"oh well we have no idea what they were intending to do, we can't read minds"

"They were a doctor for 40 years and donated to children's charities, I imagine they had a good reason for what they did"

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

My guy, this is exactly what you said.

1. Management has some knowledge or expertise outside of what we can know, because they are professionals who have been in the league for a time, thus criticizing them is from a position of ignorance

2. It's inherently unknowable what management thinks of the team, it's composition, or the coach, so trying to figure that out based on their actions is pointless.

3. Regarding Kaliyev and Clark, we don't know what happens behind the scenes, so them not playing could be totally justified based on some information that we don't have.

It's such a freaking shitty argument because you're appealing to a lack of evidence to disprove people's criticism. No one can possible argue against you because you are appealing to information that isn't obtainable.

It's like saying a person who stabbed another person to death didn't commit murder:

"oh well we have no idea what they were intending to do, we can't read minds"

"They were a doctor for 40 years and donated to children's charities, I imagine they had a good reason for what they did"

LOL as opposed to, saying the person who stabbed the other person should be hanged before you find out that the guy he stabbed was threatening him and his family??

I'm not saying there IS a good reason to sit Kaliyev, I am saying I don't know if it's good or not, because I know enough to realize I don't know. You and others are assuming it's done to f*** him over....because....whatever bias shitty reason you have, you have completely ruled out anything other than they don't know WTF they are doing and are intentionally f***ing him over....

Yea, that's the BETTER position to have.....right?

 

[lexlavender]

Another one whose reading is not really up to par

You say they are mismanaging players, ok, how? How are you arriving at that conclusion?

Because they aren't playing in every game that you want them to be? Because that's really the only honest answer you can give.

I arrive at the conclusion that they are mismanaging players because:

1. They continue to move their most promising prospects up and down without giving them ample playing time or analysis, losing multiple players to waivers in the process.

2. Players who are statistically the most successful in their limited time on the ice, like Kaliyev, Vilardi last year, even Byfield when he centered Vilardi and Iafallo, are ignored for their accomplishments and given less ice time. Kaliyev was the most productive PP player, minute per minute, on our team last year, yet he sees zero first team time and is constantly scratched for not "producing" on the bottom two lines. Vilardi had a top 15 GF% in the league last year or something insane, yet he was traded. Byfield was something like 70% expected GF% while centering Iafallo and Vilardi, yet that lines combo was tried maybe 3 times, we lost some games, then they decided that Byfield wasn't a center.

3. Blake has consistently traded away players who become way more successful away from the team. Martinez, Toffoli, Pearson, Amadio, Dowd, Durzi, Vilardi, Iafallo, Kupari, and has only rarely gotten a return that matches what we had given.

 

[lexlavender]

LOL as opposed to, saying the person who stabbed the other person should be hanged before you find out that the guy he stabbed was threatening him and his family??

I'm not saying there IS a good reason to sit Kaliyev, I am saying I don't know if it's good or not, because I know enough to realize I don't know. You and others are assuming it's done to f*** him over....because....whatever bias shitty reason you have, you have completely ruled out anything other than they don't know WTF they are doing and are intentionally f***ing him over....

Yea, that's the BETTER position to have.....right?

You're appealing to ignorance in order to remain agnostic about criticizing anything. We can't know, so we shouldn't make any opinions.

Meanwhile, what I am saying is NOT:

Ignore all evidence and forget what may happen behind closed doors, let's just come to a conclusion based on what I feel.

But what I AM saying IS:

Based on the evidence I can perceive and analyze as an amateur, these are the conclusions I am reaching

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

I arrive at the conclusion that they are mismanaging players because:

1. They continue to move their most promising prospects up and down without giving them ample playing time or analysis, losing multiple players to waivers in the process.

2. Players who are statistically the most successful in their limited time on the ice, like Kaliyev, Vilardi last year, even Byfield when he centered Vilardi and Iafallo, are ignored for their accomlplishments and given less ice time. Kaliyev was the most productive PP player, minute per minute, on our team last year, yet he sees zero first team time and is constantly scratched for not "producing" on the bottom two lines. Vilardi had a top 15 GF% in the league last year or something insane, yet he was traded. Byfield was something like 70% expected GF% while centering Iafallo and Vilardi, yet that lines combo was tried maybe 3 times, we lost some games, then they decided that Byfield wasn't a center.

3. Blake has consistently traded away players who become way more successful away from the team. Martinez, Toffoli, Pearson, Amadio, Dowd, Durzi, Vilardi, Iafallo, Kupari, and has only rarely gotten a return that matches what we had given.

1. How do you know they aren't giving them ample analysis? Who have we lost to waivers, Bjornfoot? He isn't even playing, Fagemo? He couldn't make it on another team either, again, WHO have we LOST to waivers?

2. How do you know WHY Kaliyev was scratched? Are there quotes? I haven't seen any, so if there are, please let me know, from what I've seen, he's been scratched (before mainly) because his game was overall shit, he came back from that playing great, I don't know what this latest stretch of benching is about... Vilardi, you think the reason he was traded is because he was too productive? Byfield has gown leaps and bounds playing with Kempe and Kopitar, not sure if that's the example you want to use as mismanaged.

3. Martinez, Toffoli, Pearson, Durzi, Amadio, Dowd everyone was clamoring for them to be gone...now they are they are...it's a mistake?? Out of that entire group of players you mentioned, the one that hurts, is Vilardi, I get that, Kupari hasn't cracked the lineup in how long in WPG even WITH all their injuries...he;s played a total of 16 games.....

You're appealing to ignorance in order to remain agnostic about criticizing anything. We can't know, so we shouldn't make any opinions.

Meanwhile, what I am saying is NOT:

Ignore all evidence and forget what may happen behind closed doors, let's just come to a conclusion based on what I feel.

But what I AM saying IS:

Based on the evidence I can perceive and analyze as an amateur, these are the conclusions I am reaching

Fair enough but man, you gotta do a better job of analyzing the evidence, based on your previous post, I don't think you understand what's going on....

 

[lexlavender]

Fair enough but man, you gotta do a better job of analyzing the evidence, based on your previous post, I don't think you understand what's going on....

Before I even respond to all of your points, what is going on then? From your perspective?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Before I even respond to all of your points, what is going on then? From your perspective?

With what specifically? Kaliyev? No idea, came off the benching, like gangbusters, played great for 2 games, ok for the last game, then was sat against Detroit, and CAR, could be a consistency issue, 2 great games, 1 mediocre game, etc but if that was the case, why sit him against CAR ? Could be in-house disciplinary issue, bad attitude, bad body language, but again, sit him 1, not 2. Could be he's banged up, foot issues, and yea, it could be that the coaching staff is f***ing him around,

Here's the difference, I don't know what's happening, so I am not going to settle on one answer, I am going to say, I don't know WTF is going on, and go on about cheering for who IS in the lineup, worry about who isn't later on, mabye we will never know about this 3 game stretch 20 years from now...maybe we will.

Before I even respond to all of your points, what is going on then? From your perspective?

Course, as I typed all that and went back to re-read it, I get your question,

A lot to unpack there, but I think LA is letting the players play themselves out of this funk they are in, I don't think a majojr move is on the horizon, I think it's up to the players to play with purpose, pay attention to detail, and then maybe something will happen, I think management thinks they have the right mixture of players, (wether they are right or wrong is TBD) but that's what they think, so they are letting the players/coaches try to work it out, all said and done, they are STILL the 12th best team out of 32 teams.....it's up to the players to keep that status.

 

[King'sPawn]

Before I even respond to all of your points, what is going on then? From your perspective?

"You need to do a better job evaluating the evidence"

"Okay. What does the evidence tell you."

"I don't know."

Leave it to a Kings win for gatekeepers to start telling everyone how much they don't know after an 8-game losing streak.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

You're appealing to ignorance in order to remain agnostic about criticizing anything. We can't know, so we shouldn't make any opinions.

Meanwhile, what I am saying is NOT:

Ignore all evidence and forget what may happen behind closed doors, let's just come to a conclusion based on what I feel.

But what I AM saying IS:

Based on the evidence I can perceive and analyze as an amateur, these are the conclusions I am reaching

If direct or circumstantial evidence of a suspect’s actions—with any express statement of intent—is sufficient to demonstrate state of mind beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal prosecution, it’s definitely sufficient for some diehard meathead sports fans on a message board to have opinions about a franchise they have followed closely for years, if not decades.

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

Do you guys mind if I cook a little bit??

Fagemo - Kopitar - Kempe
Fiala - Danault - Moore
Byfield - PLD - Kaliyev
Grundstrom - Lewis - Laferriere/JAD

PP1:
Fagemo
Fiala - Kopitar - Kempe
Doughty

PP2:
Byfield
Moore - PLD - Kaliyev
Spence

Fagemo is arguably the best player in the AHL right now and indisputably the hottest player in the AHL... If you're going to play him, why not set him up for success and put him in a position to make an impact right away and translate his current production into the NHL?

I believe he would feast on that PP unit. It would give the first unit a right shot threat and force teams to stop keying in on Kempe. He'd essentially be a replacement of Vilardi.

It sucks taking Danault off the 2nd unit but in this situation it's essentially either Danault, PLD, or Kaliyev that would get the boot from the powerplay. Kaliyev's shot is too dangerous (even if just creating rebounds) and PLD makes $8.5m (it's unrealistic to imagine he gets taken off the powerplay entirely although yes, he probably should be the odd man out given what we've seen).

I also believe Byfield and PLD would click well together. Byfield's 200ft game is solid so hopefully he'd help strengthen PLD's line defensively and giving the two of them a shooter like Kaliyev makes a lot of sense.

Who says no?? (Other than McLellan obviously because he hates fun)

 

[Herby]

“Let the players cook.”

It's just astounding how awful the media situation is in LA.

1. Face no criticism of any kind from 99% of the local independent media

2. Go on mouth piece podcasts where you are addressed as your nickname, face zero difficult questions, be allowed to basically lie for 2 hours with no pushback from the host. Then have the host use said lies to defend members of the organization from logical criticisms from fans going forward.

3. Have members of the team controlled media be critical of fans, journalists, bloggers on social media if they "get out of line"

Could you imagine these guys if they were in a market like Toronto, Philly, Vancouver? In the immortal words of Drew Doughty, "Ha"

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

It's just astounding how awful the media situation is in LA.

1. Face no criticism of any kind from 99% of the local independent media

2. Go on mouth piece podcasts where you are addressed as your nickname, face zero difficult questions, be allowed to basically lie for 2 hours with no pushback from the host. Then have the host use said lies to defend members of the organization from logical criticisms from fans going forward.

3. Have members of the team controlled media be critical of fans, journalists, bloggers on social media if they "get out of line"

Could you imagine these guys if they were in a market like Toronto, Philly, Vancouver? In the immortal words of Drew Doughty, "Ha"

My lines are pretty good tho right?? ^^^

 

[AbsentMojo]

We can discuss the players not performing during the skid but Id say its most likely the system that has been figured out by the league - a hunch. Would you expect the dinosaur to adjust? Lets take an example of this ossification. Last season the PK was atrocious and this season one of the best with similar personnel. So why didnt he try to adjust it last season way before going into a playoff round against one of the best PP in the league? The Kings headed into the playoffs as the 24th PK and end up with a playoff record worst 43% on the PK... thats comical right?

NHL Stats 2022-2023 - Team Penalty Killing

Get team penalty killing stats for the 2022-2023 NHL season, including goals and shots against on the PK for the regular season and playoffs.

www.covers.com

 

[King'sPawn]

Do you guys mind if I cook a little bit??

Fagemo - Kopitar - Kempe
Fiala - Danault - Moore
Byfield - PLD - Kaliyev
Grundstrom - Lewis - Laferriere/JAD

PP1:
Fagemo
Fiala - Kopitar - Kempe
Doughty

PP2:
Byfield
Moore - PLD - Kaliyev
Spence

Fagemo is arguably the best player in the AHL right now and indisputably the hottest player in the AHL... If you're going to play him, why not set him up for success and put him in a position to make an impact right away and translate his current production into the NHL?

I believe he would feast on that PP unit. It would give the first unit a right shot threat and force teams to stop keying in on Kempe. He'd essentially be a replacement of Vilardi.

It sucks taking Danault off the 2nd unit but in this situation it's essentially either Danault, PLD, or Kaliyev that would get the boot from the powerplay. Kaliyev's shot is too dangerous (even if just creating rebounds) and PLD makes $8.5m (it's unrealistic to imagine he gets taken off the powerplay entirely although yes, he probably should be the odd man out given what we've seen).

I also believe Byfield and PLD would click well together. Byfield's 200ft game is solid so hopefully he'd help strengthen PLD's line defensively and giving the two of them a shooter like Kaliyev makes a lot of sense.

Who says no?? (Other than McLellan obviously because he hates fun)

I'm not a fan of it.

PLD is still lazy, but Byfield isn't a one-man army who can carry bad linemates. So, I don't like putting those two together.

Kopitar's best hockey is when he has a puck hound. It's why Iafallo, Williams, and Byfield have all had great mutual success playing with him (and Kopitar has benefitted as well).

If you want to move things around, I'd like to see some of this:
Byfield - Kopitar - Kaliyev
Fiala - Danault - Kempe
Moore - PLD - Laferriere
Grundstrom - Lewis - JAD

Kaliyev gets more players to help set him up to shoot, but he also isn't shy about board battles. Fiala and Kempe get more time to gel. PLD gets the hard workers who boost each other up, but there's still skill there.

 

[KopitarGOAT420]

I'm not a fan of it.

PLD is still lazy, but Byfield isn't a one-man army who can carry bad linemates. So, I don't like putting those two together.

Kopitar's best hockey is when he has a puck hound. It's why Iafallo, Williams, and Byfield have all had great mutual success playing with him (and Kopitar has benefitted as well).

If you want to move things around, I'd like to see some of this:
Byfield - Kopitar - Kaliyev
Fiala - Danault - Kempe
Moore - PLD - Laferriere
Grundstrom - Lewis - JAD

Kaliyev gets more players to help set him up to shoot, but he also isn't shy about board battles. Fiala and Kempe get more time to gel. PLD gets the hard workers who boost each other up, but there's still skill there.

Hmmmmmm I respect it - you definitely could be right on Byfield in relation to Kopi/PLD.

I like your lines brother but I would hesitate to break up Fiala-Danault-Moore as those guys have been money lately.

Also, no Fagemo?

 

[AbsentMojo]

It's just astounding how awful the media situation is in LA.

1. Face no criticism of any kind from 99% of the local independent media

2. Go on mouth piece podcasts where you are addressed as your nickname, face zero difficult questions, be allowed to basically lie for 2 hours with no pushback from the host. Then have the host use said lies to defend members of the organization from logical criticisms from fans going forward.

3. Have members of the team controlled media be critical of fans, journalists, bloggers on social media if they "get out of line"

Could you imagine these guys if they were in a market like Toronto, Philly, Vancouver? In the immortal words of Drew Doughty, "Ha"

They'd get destroyed and would have to hire a PR firm. I think the main difference is bloggers can only get access if they lick boots and become pravda since they have no backing organization and established media like news outlets get access regardless. Helaine Elliot used to criticize the team in the past. Not sure if she still does - dont read her column.

 

[King'sPawn]

Hmmmmmm I respect it - you definitely could be right on Byfield in relation to Kopi/PLD.

I like your lines brother but I would hesitate to break up Fiala-Danault-Moore as those guys have been money lately.

Also, no Fagemo?

I get it. I try to go with chemistry as much as possible but then factor in chemistry/synergy.

Honestly legit forgot about Fagemo.

I'd scratch PLD and play Fagemo but I know that won't happen. Only other one to try scratching would be Grundstrom or JAD, as both have been inconsistent in their approach and execution.

So, maybe put Fagemo up on Kopitar's line and move Kaliyev down to RW4, since he also seems to be one of those odd players who does better on the bottom-6.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

We can discuss the players not performing during the skid but Id say its most likely the system that has been figured out by the league - a hunch. Would you expect the dinosaur to adjust? Lets take an example of this ossification. Last season the PK was atrocious and this season one of the best with similar personnel. So why didnt he try to adjust it last season way before going into a playoff round against one of the best PP in the league? The Kings headed into the playoffs as the 24th PK and end up with a playoff record worst 43% on the PK... thats comical right?

NHL Stats 2022-2023 - Team Penalty Killing

Get team penalty killing stats for the 2022-2023 NHL season, including goals and shots against on the PK for the regular season and playoffs.

www.covers.com

I'm thinking the additions of Lewis, and Englund added better layers, plus better goaltending, did tweak the system but it wasn't a complete overhaul

 

[AbsentMojo]

I'm thinking the additions of Lewis, and Englund added better layers, plus better goaltending, did tweak the system but it wasn't a complete overhaul

I highly doubt it was the personnel diffs. Last year they played a 1-1-2 which from what I gather from the link below is a common configuration in the league.. but it wasnt working at all for whatever reason. 1-1-2 is to cut down on cross seam passes, but gives the points all sorts of room to maneuver and it burned the Kings many many times. This year the went to a diamond and have had much more success. I feel TM is slow to figure things out in general.. thats my point. He sticks with things that dont work too long.

PK Structures: Diamonds Aren't Forever?

Revisionist 4v5 tactics

jhanhky.substack.com

 

[tbrown33]

I highly doubt it was the personnel diffs. Last year they played a 1-1-2 which from what I gather from the link below is a common configuration in the league.. but it wasnt working at all for whatever reason. 1-1-2 is to cut down on cross seam passes, but gives the points all sorts of room to maneuver and it burned the Kings many many times. This year the went to a diamond and have had much more success. I feel TM is slow to figure things out in general.. thats my point. He sticks with things that dont work too long.

PK Structures: Diamonds Aren't Forever?

Revisionist 4v5 tactics

jhanhky.substack.com

they used the 1-1-2 for 2 entire seasons. it took them 2 seasons to even TRY the diamond. it's actually insane.

I'm thinking the additions of Lewis, and Englund added better layers, plus better goaltending, did tweak the system but it wasn't a complete overhaul

 

[lumbergh]

they used the 1-1-2 for 2 entire seasons. it took them 2 seasons to even TRY the diamond. it's actually insane.


View attachment 804589
View attachment 804590

The 1-1-2 really was atrocious.

 

[AbsentMojo]

The 1-1-2 really was atrocious.

And lets not forget the Sturm PP with no adjustments (4th worst). Hiller PP was good.. took a year to adjust there. This season middle of the pack. Might a lack of a right hand shot be the reason its middle of the pack this year? I wonder if that was even considered when trading Vilardi.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

And lets not forget the Sturm PP with no adjustments (4th worst). Hiller PP was good.. took a year to adjust there. This season middle of the pack. Might a lack of a right hand shot be the reason its middle of the pack this year? I wonder if that was even considered when trading Vilardi.

Part of it this year, is teams taking away the one timer from that side, Kempe, but even with Arvidsson, Vilardi etc, you never saw one timers from the right side....rarely, maybe not never, but rarely they were trying to spoon feed that low one timer and teams are taking that away now