Kyper: Lawrence Gillman gone, nope just kidding he's coming back.//update: he's gone

[usernamezrhardtodo]

1. You can see the instant difference within the same season 18-19.

2. Are you saying that Dubas vastly improved the defense without hurting the offense?

I unlike many Dubas haters have commended him on his rebuilding of the D-corps. I think he has done a good job in a few areas....that I would never take away from him. I just think any top 15 coach could replicate what Keefe has done here quite effortlessly. You seem to think it's a great achievement of some sorts.

 

[DarkKnight]

Under Dubas:

Expected Cups = 4
Actual Cups = 0

Be patient, Lord Stanley is coming.

All the people defending them now would have said fire the whole front office if I forecasted our playoff series and success. Every single one of the apologists now. It’s frightening how many years we’ve wasted with this core and all we have is theoretical futures, over and over and over. It’s comical being a Leafs fan.

 

[DarkKnight]

I unlike many Dubas haters have commended him on his rebuilding of the D-corps. I think he has done a good job in a few areas....that I would never take away from him. I just think any top 15 coach could replicate what Keefe has done here quite effortlessly. You seem to think it's a great achievement of some sorts.

Just remember, the same people here were incessantly arguing our D core was great, based on stats, prior to Dubas retooling it, recognizing it wasn’t near good enough. And yes, he did a good job on the D core this year, for my money the best we’ve had with this group.

 

[ACC1224]

I unlike many Dubas haters have commended him on his rebuilding of the D-corps. I think he has done a good job in a few areas....that I would never take away from him. I just think any top 15 coach could replicate what Keefe has done here quite effortlessly. You seem to think it's a great achievement of some sorts.

Yep, said the same thing many times. Perhaps it is his genius that is responsible for the regular season records? If so, wish he'd bring that genius with him to the playoff/play in's.

 

[Brown Dog]

16-17 Lost
17-18 Lost
18-19 Lost
19-20 Lost The Room

19-20 Still Lost
20-21 Oops Lost Again
21-22 Lost But Received Firm Handshake and X over Z parade

If anyone asked when Keefe was hired, if he didn’t have a playoff round win in his first three years, should he stay, exactly nobody would argue that’s good enough. Every summer, move the goalposts and bathe ourselves in useless advanced stars while others play on and engrave names on things that actually count in sport. The off-season is hilarious here and it’s no wonder other fan bases mock us.

Keefe is a mediocre coach, gifted with generational talent. His self satisfied pre-game 4 presser belied a guy who truly didn’t understand the moment and was instead content, his team played like that.

In retrospect Keefe did seem overly content with a split in Tampa after Game 3.

Then again, people criticized him for being too intense in the OT intermission of Game 6 last year vs. Montreal (as documented in the All or Nothing series), when he basically pleaded with the team to rise to the occasion.

Tough to say--and if so, it didn't work--but maybe he was trying to keep them loose and not feeling the pressure of that moment this time around.

 

[rocketman588]

Aside from the first two games vs Colorado the leafs were the only other team in three post seasons to make the lightning look beatable over a 7 game series. Sucks it was round 1, again but thems the breaks. Doesn’t mean the team isn’t good or very close.
The two finalists, St. Louis and Toronto have been the best teams this post season if you actually watch the games.
There was a lot of mediocre play in the pacific and metro brackets imo

The bolts were down 2-0 to the rangers and trailed by two late in the game. I would say that's making them look fairly beatable. Especially considering vasis not losing back to back numbers.

Not too bad from a trash "metro team".

 

[Pyrophorus]

Dubas has built a juggernaut for winning routine regular season games. That's it. It isn't unprecedented that a strong regular season team never progresses past that.

Actually, it kind of is. Look at the math.

Name another team, like this.

 

[justashadowof]

Actually, it kind of is. Look at the math.

Name another team, like this.

The entire history of Winnipeg Jets/Arizona Coyotes franchise.
L.A. Kings of the mid to late 1970's.
Buffalo Sabres of the 1980's through to the middle of the 1990's. Often with great regular season records, almost always early playoff losses. 3 series wins in 13 playoff appearances over that stretch.

 

[Pyrophorus]

The entire history of Winnipeg Jets/Arizona Coyotes franchise.
L.A. Kings of the mid to late 1970's.
Buffalo Sabres of the 1980's through to the middle of the 1990's. Often with great regular season records, almost always early playoff losses. 3 series wins in 13 playoff appearances over that stretch.

...and those periods ended

You did say never...

 

[justashadowof]

...and those periods ended

You did say never...

You're telling me that you thought I'm saying the Toronto Maple Leafs' franchise will never win another playoff series ever again? Okay.

 

[hfman]

I believe that this is a results oriented business

You sure? Shanahan is into his 9th year with zero playoff wins.

if it's a results oriented business, what other president on the planet gets to keep his job after a near decade with no playoff wins?

Maybe it IS a results oriented business for all 31 other teams... but clearly that's not the policy here in Toronto. Otherwise their President would have been gone a half decade ago... but somehow he continues to dodge the bullet

Seriosuly... after he gets booted next year, his resume will show 10 years with the same team and zero playoff wins.


How on Earth is he going to find another job with another team with a resume like that?

 

[keonsbitterness]

How on Earth is he going to find another job with another team with a resume like that?

He knows a lot of people. That typically gets you new jobs.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Ask a Keefe supporter what he does well and all you get back is winningest percentage ever and 115pts...that's about it. What does he do specifically? ....you get crickets.

- Massively improved the special teams
- Massively improved the defensive structure and commitment from forwards, something Babcock was unable to do
- Has been massive in the growth of the star players and seems to have found a good balance of developing young players with still winning games.

I mean literally the only bad thing you can say about him is he hasn't won a playoff series. I don't see why he should take blame for that when other coaches and GM's couldn't get it done either. And really, only 2 real playoffs. CBJ I don't care that much, it was basically a pre-season tournament.

 

[HockeyVirus]

You sure? Shanahan is into his 9th year with zero playoff wins.

if it's a results oriented business, what other president on the planet gets to keep his job after a near decade with no playoff wins?

Maybe it IS a results oriented business for all 31 other teams... but clearly that's not the policy here in Toronto. Otherwise their President would have been gone a half decade ago... but somehow he continues to dodge the bullet

Seriosuly... after he gets booted next year, his resume will show 10 years with the same team and zero playoff wins.


How on Earth is he going to find another job with another team with a resume like that?

When Shanny was hired, he said the problem in Toronto is not making a plan it is sticking to it. This is a perfect example, if Leaf fans had their way we would go back to firing our GM every 3 years, forcing them to make win now moves instead of long term moves year after year, even when the team is not good enough to compete.

In his 10 years, he oversaw an entire rebuild top to bottom, off ice and on. Then he also had the pandemic to deal with which yes, every team did as well, but not right after committing 40M to players expecting the cap to go up.

There's also the fact that while yes they were a playoff team, the players themselves were 19-23 years old for most of those years. Yes you can say it was a mistake to pay the players big money without being proven, but I mean the players kind of forced it.

Ultimately, it is on the players not coach, gm, or president. They haven't done what Oilers players did or Avs players and dominated a series. However, they are also top nhl talent and it would be silly to assume you are better without them. He has no choice but to keep going with this team until the wheels fall off.

All it takes is 1 run.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

- Massively improved the special teams

Except in the playoffs when it really counts...but other than that...it's fine. You do remember us having an amazing PP with Babs in the past do you not?

- Massively improved the defensive structure and commitment from forwards, something Babcock was unable to do

That I can agree with...but it's not like he did not try to get them to play that way...I think maturity more than Keefe had something to do with that.

- Has been massive in the growth of the star players and seems to have found a good balance of developing young players with still winning games.

They were going to get better no matter who was coaching them.

I mean literally the only bad thing you can say about him is he hasn't won a playoff series. I don't see why he should take blame for that when other coaches and GM's couldn't get it done either. And really, only 2 real playoffs. CBJ I don't care that much, it was basically a pre-season tournament.

If you don't care about them getting shut down and out coached...well...what can I say.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Except in the playoffs when it really counts...but other than that...it's fine. You do remember us having an amazing PP with Babs in the past do you not?

That I can agree with...but it's not like he did not try to get them to play that way...I think maturity more than Keefe had something to do with that.

They were going to get better no matter who was coaching them.

If you don't care about them getting shut down and out coached...well...what can I say.

Special teams is also the PK, something that killed us against the Bruins both years.

 

[ACC1224]

Special teams is also the PK, something that killed us against the Bruins both years.

Keefe doesn't coach the PK, that would be Dean Chynoweth

Toronto Maple Leafs Have Hired Dean Chynoweth As Assistant Coach

At 4pm on Monday, July 12th, the Toronto Maple Leafs announced that they had hired Dean Chynoweth as their new assistant coach.

editorinleaf.com

 

[HockeyVirus]

Keefe doesn't coach the PK, that would be Dean Chynoweth

Toronto Maple Leafs Have Hired Dean Chynoweth As Assistant Coach

At 4pm on Monday, July 12th, the Toronto Maple Leafs announced that they had hired Dean Chynoweth as their new assistant coach.

editorinleaf.com

Keefe is the head coach. He has the final say in all areas. I've seen Keefe numerous times in big moments come over and take over planning on the white board for special teams while assistants get pushed aside.

 

[ACC1224]

Keefe is the head coach. He has the final say in all areas. I've seen Keefe numerous times in big moments come over and take over planning on the white board for special teams while assistants get pushed aside.

...and I assume it was always successful when he took over.

 

[HockeyVirus]

...and I assume it was always successful when he took over.

So Keefe takes all the blame for bad things, but non of the credit when things go well.

Noted.

 

[ACC1224]

So Keefe takes all the blame for bad things, but non of the credit when things go well.

Noted.

That's a bit of a childish response but if that's how you feel, knock yourself out.

PK was garbage in 2020, they bring in a new coach and he doesn't get any credit for the improvement?

 

[HockeyVirus]

That's a bit of a childish response but if that's how you feel, knock yourself out.

PK was garbage in 2020, they bring in a new coach and he doesn't get any credit for the improvement?

Of course he does. But these are not silo'd positions. This is a team, that is fully funded with advisors and they have meetings. He obviously was a positive addition to the team. But to suggest he came in and did his own thing and turned it around is laughable. More like Keefe, after having 1 season under his belt (we don't count a few months mid season and then covid stoppage) was able to better address the failures of the penalty kill.

To me, what is childish is refusing to credit the coach with a historic season where our special teams and 5v5 play were both the best in years, we smashed franchise records, etc because he didn't win a playoff series in 2 years. One was blown by the core, one was just a better team.

It's like when new players get here and get asked about the cup drought. They can't be responsible for anything except for what happened since they got there. Why should he hold the bag for Babcock's failures, and managements failure in firing Babcock when it was obvious and forcing him into a bad situation his first year.

I'm sure Keefe told Sandin, Dermott, and Galchenyuk to have brutal turnovers at the worst times vs the Habs. I'm also sure he told Holl to negate Tavares game tying goal, or Kerfoot to have a brutal giveaway. Or the boys to go down 5 on 3 holding a lead in game 6.

 

[Stamkos4life]

When Shanny was hired, he said the problem in Toronto is not making a plan it is sticking to it. This is a perfect example, if Leaf fans had their way we would go back to firing our GM every 3 years, forcing them to make win now moves instead of long term moves year after year, even when the team is not good enough to compete.

In his 10 years, he oversaw an entire rebuild top to bottom, off ice and on. Then he also had the pandemic to deal with which yes, every team did as well, but not right after committing 40M to players expecting the cap to go up.

There's also the fact that while yes they were a playoff team, the players themselves were 19-23 years old for most of those years. Yes you can say it was a mistake to pay the players big money without being proven, but I mean the players kind of forced it.

Ultimately, it is on the players not coach, gm, or president. They haven't done what Oilers players did or Avs players and dominated a series. However, they are also top nhl talent and it would be silly to assume you are better without them. He has no choice but to keep going with this team until the wheels fall off.

All it takes is 1 run.

The bolded makes absolutely no sense and I have, unfortunately, seen this used far too many times.

The president is responsible for who the gm is.

The gm is responsible for who plays, how much they make, who coaches, draft picks, trades, ect.

The goal is to win the cup. When you constantly fail, the blame belongs to those who have the most responsibility.

I'm sure if the Leafs had won at least one round this year you would be giving dubas praise.

But after his 4th consecutive loss, it's not his fault?

All of the people who dislike dubas just want success. If we had made the semi finals like Edmonton there would be very little complaining. But instead here we are once again being told to keep running it back and hoping for a different result.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Special teams is also the PK, something that killed us against the Bruins both years.

That one I will give you. Babs was a moron in not trying something new against Boston...even Cassidy was shocked they were doing the same stupid thing on the PK and was pleasantly surprised to see it.

 

[LeafEgo]

So Keefe takes all the blame for bad things, but non of the credit when things go well.

Noted.

In the few posts that preceded this you just said that Keefe should get credit for the PK because he's the head coach and has final say in all areas, but should not get blame for the playoffs because that is ultimately on the players.