Value of: Kylington's next contract

[Nanuuk]

At what point was Kylington (who was drafted with the last pick of the 2nd round) projected to go top 5 in arguably the most stacked draft of all time?

Here is one review from 2016.

Draft Profile: LHD Oliver Kylington

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Yet the WAR junk you keep posting about Kylington would support any assertion that Bennett was a bad player, because of how much context is lost.



He is literally the Flames' third line centre right now, and that line is stumbling along rather than thriving despite an absolute burner in Dube and a responsible, strong skating winger in Pitlick. Anyone who's watched that line could tell you the biggest issue is Sean Monahan... a guy like JG Pageau would be a significant upgrade at 3C. So what is Sean Monahan if not a lower-end middle six winger (and no one has ever slotted him as a 4th liner).




You proved nothing, other than how misleading stats can be when on-ice SH% and QoT are very, very low.



Those takes you call horrible are the ones that are consistently correct. I wonder what that says about you.

1. Bennett was horrible in Calgary during the regular season and was great during playoffs, I posted a lot more than WAR there, just because you dont understand it doesnt mean its not accurate.

2. Monahan and Backlund have had almost identical 5v5 ice time over the past ~10 games. Label him 3C all you want but that to me means there are 2 2C's. Pageau is just another Backlund type player, provides little offense but is strong defensively. Wouldnt he have to actually be a winger to be called a winger? Lmao
Also you have literally posted line ups with him on the 4th line wing.

3. No I showed stats that proved he was never a 1D prior to this year like you claim. You just keep trying to excuse the stats with baseless redirects.

4. Which takes are correct? Not Monahan, he's clearly not a bottom 6 winger or he would be playing <10 minutes a night. Not Kylington, the numbers and eye test show that he is a completely different player than in previous years. Not Bennett, same thing numbers and eye test. I've always said he's a playoff beast too. He just found a superstar he actually has synergy with in Florida, he had loads of chances with Gaudreau and Tkachuk and never clicked.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

1. Bennett was horrible in Calgary during the regular season and was great during playoffs, I posted a lot more than WAR there, just because you dont understand it doesnt mean its not accurate.

2. Monahan and Backlund have had almost identical 5v5 ice time over the past ~10 games. Label him 3C all you want but that to me means there are 2 2C's. Pageau is just another Backlund type player, provides little offense but is strong defensively. Wouldnt he have to actually be a winger to be called a winger? Lmao
Also you have literally posted line ups with him on the 4th line wing.

3. No I showed stats that proved he was never a 1D prior to this year like you claim. You just keep trying to excuse the stats with baseless redirects.

4. Which takes are correct? Not Monahan, he's clearly not a bottom 6 winger or he would be playing <10 minutes a night. Not Kylington, the numbers and eye test show that he is a completely different player than in previous years. Not Bennett, same thing numbers and eye test. I've always said he's a playoff beast too. He just found a superstar he actually has synergy with in Florida, he had loads of chances with Gaudreau and Tkachuk and never clicked.

Show me all these chances Bennett had to center Gaudreau.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

At what point was Kylington (who was drafted with the last pick of the 2nd round) projected to go top 5 in arguably the most stacked draft of all time?

as recently as December 2014 Kylington was considered a top 5 pick whose stock was trending up. He got hurt and it affected his WJC situation.

The WJCs and inconsistent playtime in the SHL tanked his ranking down to the 10-15 range eithin four months, and then NHL gms exercised their sheer stupidity, allowing Kylington to fall even further.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Show me all these chances Bennett had to center Gaudreau.

Why does he need to center Gaudreau? That's pretty much just the act of taking face offs, hockey games are very fluid, hell half the time Johnny's on the ice he is playing up the middle during live play. The fact he never had synergy with him when they were linemates is proof enough. They played together literally every season he was in Calgary for some portion of time and 17/18 was the only year he wasn't dragging Johnny down

 

[Dirty Dog]

At what point was Kylington (who was drafted with the last pick of the 2nd round) projected to go top 5 in arguably the most stacked draft of all time?

I remember him being ranked in the top 5-8 early on

 

[Backlund]

At what point was Kylington (who was drafted with the last pick of the 2nd round) projected to go top 5 in arguably the most stacked draft of all time?

Here's one:

Youngblood: Top 30 Rankings for 2015 NHL Entry Draft [Pre-Season]

I'm sure you can find more if you google it.

 

[Gritty]

Didn't Bob Mckenzie's first look draft rankings for the season have Kylington quite early in the 1st round?
I'll try and find it. Might be hard lol

Edit: Not hard. Bob had him 8th

2014-15 NHL Pre-Season Draft Rankings

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Why does he need to center Gaudreau? That's pretty much just the act of taking face offs, hockey games are very fluid, hell half the time Johnny's on the ice he is playing up the middle during live play. The fact he never had synergy with him when they were linemates is proof enough. They played together literally every season he was in Calgary for some portion of time and 17/18 was the only year he wasn't dragging Johnny down

Oh so you just have no idea about anything related to hockey? If you think the difference between center and wing is just taking faceoffs then I somehow overestimated your understanding of hockey (which is hard to do considering how awful your opinions have been over time).

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Oh so you just have no idea about anything related to hockey? If you think the difference between center and wing is just taking faceoffs then I somehow overestimated your understanding of hockey (which is hard to do considering how awful your opinions have been over time).

Lmao nice tangent. But sure please tell why it is so important for Bennett to specifically play center for Gaudreau? I honestly feel like you've never actually watched or played hockey at a level higher than house league if you think the center has significantly more responsibilities than wingers. Again games are very fluid, you dont alwaus stand on your 1 side of the ice, you dont always cover the same player, you dont always just let the center worty about backchecking. You do whatever you can to hive your team and advantage, cover for a pinching dman, circle the net, breakout down the middle, disrupt/get open for the centering pass, etc.

Now again Gaudreau and Bennett played together for a decent portion of every season and had horrible chemistry together

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Lmao nice tangent. But sure please tell why it is so important for Bennett to specifically play center for Gaudreau? I honestly feel like you've never actually watched or played hockey at a level higher than house league if you think the center has significantly more responsibilities than wingers. Again games are very fluid, you dont alwaus stand on your 1 side of the ice, you dont always cover the same player, you dont always just let the center worty about backchecking. You do whatever you can to hive your team and advantage, cover for a pinching dman, circle the net, breakout down the middle, disrupt/get open for the centering pass, etc.

Now again Gaudreau and Bennett played together for a decent portion of every season and had horrible chemistry together

You admittedly don't understand the difference between a center and a winger, so I hardly think it's worth my time explaining to you why a player like Bennett would be less effective as a winger.

 

[Dertell]

Why would I ever ask him that? He's as delusional as you on here. How can you possibly say he played at a 1D level when he tried to dodge a forecheck nearly every game with a spin-o-rama while being the last man back, fell and then coughed up the puck? How can you blame Stone for his shortcomings when his most common linemate in 18/19 was Andersson at 66%, Andersson again in 19/20 at 61%, Valimaki in 20/21 at 53%, and Tanev this year?

Regardless of Stone, Andersson was a possession black hole back then regardless of who he was paired with, he played like 8 games in 2020-21 which is not a meaningful sample size to evaluate anyone and he's doing perfectly fine with Tanev.

How can you blame Geoff Ward alone when 3 different coaches (2 of which are considered above average coaches) all decided he was not good enough.

Bill Peters is considered an above average coach by who? you? lol.

Hell Sutter was even asked multiple times last year about Kylington and said he needed to work on a lot of things. This is not something that has been in the works for a while now, Kylington went and reinvented himself as a player in the offseason, came into camp in excellent shape, and is now proving that he can reach that potential that was almost lost. Kylington was a defensive trainwreck before this year and that was very clear in nearly every game he played, that is no longer the case as he has changed his game to be a more rounded 2-way player. Albeit a very small sample size of success

The stats I provided are legitimate and with legitimate defense partners, all you've done is dismiss my stats by deflecting the blame onto a 3rd party that isn't even a logical target for the blame. This is nothing new with you or Whiskey. You preach your hot takes and every once in a while your broken clocks are correct.

Sutter also believes Zadorov is a respectable NHL defenseman, to the point of tossing Valimaki aside in a 5 games winning streak to play him just because. His love of useless veteran "defensive" depth skaters was a problem even as the kings' coach; Here, he thinks Pitlick and Lewis should play more at even strength than Dube and Mangiapane of all people. Hell, even Lucic doesn't deserve to be played less than them. Sutter is not bad, but he isn't perfect. Far from it.

also, while JFresh's model wasn't too keen on Kylington, puckluckanalytics' was much more optimistic. unfortunately, that sort of thing can happen when you're dealing a low sample size so you can't just look at one model and ignore the others to justify your arguments.

 

[Dertell]

as recently as December 2014 Kylington was considered a top 5 pick whose stock was trending up. He got hurt and it affected his WJC situation.

The WJCs and inconsistent playtime in the SHL tanked his ranking down to the 10-15 range eithin four months, and then NHL gms exercised their sheer stupidity, allowing Kylington to fall even further.

more evidence WJCs should not be any more than a small consideration when evaluating prospects

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Lmao nice tangent. But sure please tell why it is so important for Bennett to specifically play center for Gaudreau? I honestly feel like you've never actually watched or played hockey at a level higher than house league if you think the center has significantly more responsibilities than wingers. Again games are very fluid, you dont alwaus stand on your 1 side of the ice, you dont always cover the same player, you dont always just let the center worty about backchecking. You do whatever you can to hive your team and advantage, cover for a pinching dman, circle the net, breakout down the middle, disrupt/get open for the centering pass, etc.

Now again Gaudreau and Bennett played together for a decent portion of every season and had horrible chemistry together

The amount of cluelessness you're posting is... @Ledge And Dairy .

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

You admittedly don't understand the difference between a center and a winger, so I hardly think it's worth my time explaining to you why a player like Bennett would be less effective as a winger.

I fully understand the difference between the 2 positions, a center shoulders more responsibility than the winger position. That does not change the fact that Bennett was abysmal when playing with Gaudreau, If Bennett is the elite player you make him out to be then he would have found a way to be at least a positive impact player on the wing with Johnny. Playing center vs wing should not have a as massive of an impact on his game as you make it out to be. The fact remains that he had next to zero chemistry with Gaudreau or Tkachuk and you can't prove otherwise. All you can do is attempt to invalidate it with roundabout excuses.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

The amount of cluelessness you're posting is... @Ledge And Dairy .

Ironic coming from you

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Regardless of Stone, Andersson was a possession black hole back then regardless of who he was paired with,

Andersson is very lucky that for some arbitrary reason the Flames thought to promote him up to play with Giordano in 2018-19, which padded his stats. Kylington was the better D on that pair by a large margin. Rasmus was never even the better defenseman on his pair, just lucky he was a right side D and Peters was oblivious to Brodie's eliteness.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I fully understand the difference between the 2 positions, a center shoulders more responsibility than the winger position. That does not change the fact that Bennett was abysmal when playing with Gaudreau,

Except... ya know... how he was never abysmal playing with Gaudreau. He was nearly a PPG in all his career games centering Gaudreau actually, while bringing a dynamic element that was blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes.

He was ineffecrive when centred by Sean Monahan, though. Because the centre is what makes a line succeed or fail.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Regardless of Stone, Andersson was a possession black hole back then regardless of who he was paired with, he played like 8 games in 2020-21 which is not a meaningful sample size to evaluate anyone and he's doing perfectly fine with Tanev.


Bill Peters is considered an above average coach by who? you? lol.

Sutter also believes Zadorov is a respectable NHL defenseman, to the point of tossing Valimaki aside in a 5 games winning streak to play him just because. His love of useless veteran "defensive" depth skaters was a problem even as the kings' coach; Here, he thinks Pitlick and Lewis should play more at even strength than Dube and Mangiapane of all people. Hell, even Lucic doesn't deserve to be played less than them. Sutter is not bad, but he isn't perfect. Far from it.

also, while JFresh's model wasn't too keen on Kylington, puckluckanalytics' was much more optimistic. unfortunately, that sort of thing can happen when you're dealing a low sample size so you can't just look at one model and ignore the others to justify your arguments.

I am not arguing how Kylington is doing this year, I am saying that Kylington has taken massive strides forward in his development this summer and was definitely not viewed as a #1D at any previous point in his career. That is what OKG, Double Dion, and Whiskey are claiming, I am saying they are trolling if they think he isn't a completely different player than he was last year.

Peters was definitely viewed as a legitimately good coach when he was hired, he went and proved it by winning the West. Then the scandal happened and he was forced to step down.

I never called Sutter perfect, I do think Zadorov should be benched. He definitely has his flaws, however Mangiapane has averaged 1 second of 5v5 ice time less than Pitlick and has averaged more than Lewis (there is a good chance that this is more due to how the on the fly line changes work where you take your corresponding player and Gaudreau has a tendency to stay out longer than everyone). Dube hasn't exactly earned more minutes, he's been pretty average overall this season with flashes, whereas Pitlick has been quite consistent.

Do you happen to have a copy of puckluckanalytics' information on Kylington over the previous few years? I would be very interested in seeing it. I don't try to ignore other models, I often refer to EW as well and am very open to seeing models that contradict what I say but no one has provided anything besides empty opinions.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

"this player is a completely different player from last year playing exactly the same style but it has nothing to do with having an actual partner, he just magically got intelligence, talent, competitiveness, everything he couldn't possibly have had one game before game 3 of the 2021-22 season"

- the post above

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Except... ya know... how he was never abysmal playing with Gaudreau. He was nearly a PPG in all his career games centering Gaudreau actually, while bringing a dynamic element that was blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes.

He was ineffecrive when centred by Sean Monahan, though. Because the centre is what makes a line succeed or fail.

A center does not singlehandedly determine whether a line succeeds or fails. Otherwise Panarin + Kane + Anisimov would not have resulted in 53 goals and 122 points at 5v5 in 15/16. Now tell me why Gaudreau and Bennett could not carry Monahan the same way Panarin and Kane carried Anisimov?

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

A center does not singlehandedly determine whether a line succeeds or fails. Otherwise Panarin + Kane + Anisimov would not have resulted in 53 goals and 122 points at 5v5 in 15/16. Now tell me why Gaudreau and Bennett could not carry Monahan the same way Panarin and Kane carried Anisimov?

2016 Anisimov was better than 2021 Monahan. The latter was AHL-calibre

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

2016 Anisimov was better than 2021 Monahan. The latter was AHL-calibre

20/21 Monahan was injured since game 6 so sure. Maybe choose a year that's a bit more comparable

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

20/21 Monahan was injured since game 6 so sure. Maybe choose a year that's a bit more comparable

2019 Playoffs
Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm hapless
Gaudreau-Monahan-Bennett on the ice for a pair of goals for, Bennett a point on both

2018 - Bennett looked great centering Gaudreau, but a bit unlucky not to hit the stat sheet in small sample size

2017 - Gaudreau-Bennett-Chiasson our best line yet separated for no reason other than Gulutzan's idiocy. Though a better winger than Chiasson would have been a nobrainer.

2016 - Gaudreau-Bennett-Jooris/Frolik dominate every game then separated for no real rhyme or reason

But tell me more about how Bennett was ever Abysmal on a line with Gaudreau.

The only person who was abysmal was 2021 Monahan, but the common narrative was to blame Bennett because no one wanted to admit the truth about Monahan's play, until after the season when they discover Monahan was injured all year and suddenly they admit it and handwaive it, while Bennett is a 1C elsewhere now.

Fact.

 

[Volica]

Flames would be wise to give this guy the Andersson/Hanifin type deal and have three under 30 top 4 D signed long term.

Foresight or a plan is something this GM has lacked for some years now.