Kyle Dubas will not be back as GM

[stardog]

It's amusing seeing the leaf haters that think Dubas is great, after saying he wasn't worthy of an OHL job merely months ago.

Should I list off the things Dubas did wrong?

I didn't even dislike Kyle. But seeing the bums come squaking, hilarious.

I want to see those hilarious, squawking bums please ..if you could provide the video I'm sure there are many who'd love to see it too... It's probably somewhere on TikTok but I don't want to subscribe to another social media thing.

ps. A gif won't do as sure it would show the bums but I doubt it would be hilarious unless hearing the accompanying squawking.

 

[Divine]

Again I’m not saying we should have kept him or anything but overdramatizing the results is funny.

There’s losing, and then there’s losing while also salting the earth for the future. Worst case scenario, the new GM can sell everything we have for a massive haul right now and do a fast tracked rebuild/retool. Trading the core for 30 year olds signed to massive retirement deals with NMCs would easily be worse than just losing the way we did, we’d be stuck in no man’s land for the majority of the next decade.

If we won a cup, the results would have been better.

Also, imagining a completely unrealistic worst case scenario to prop up Dubas' results speaks for itself. No GM in the league was trading a 21 year old Matthews, 22 year old Marner & 23 year old Nylander for 30 year olds because they lost in the first round in 7 games twice in a row.

 

[AvroArrow]

Not impressed with Dubas, but don't hate his work either.

Seems like some Leafs fans are now trashing him after having previously gushed over him, while a few neutral fans are now trying to spin him as being great. Then, both sides make fun of the other for doing the exact same thing in reverse. Lol.

If you feel attacked, note the words "some" and "a few." If you still feel targeted... I guess the glove fits, though.

Not even trashing him, but there's a sector of our fan base which basically follows Dubas as if he's some religious prophet and claim he's one of the greatest GMs in the league. It get's extremely annoying, like there's people that legitimate love this guy more than the team and pretend like he never did anything wrong.

 

[Martin Skoula]

If we won a cup, the results would have been better.

Also, imagining a completely unrealistic worst case scenario to prop up Dubas' results speaks for itself. No GM in the league was trading a 21 year old Matthews, 22 year old Marner & 23 year old Nylander for 30 year olds because they lost in the first round in 7 games twice in a row.

Yeah no one would ever trade a 26 year old 100 point player for a 30 year old that they sign to a 10.5 mil full NMC deal and then spend a 1st to dump a contract so they could sign a 31 year old 2C to a 7x7 deal, that’s crazy talk.

 

[Divine]

Yeah no one would ever trade a 26 year old 100 point player for a 30 year old that they sign to a 10.5 mil full NMC deal and then spend a 1st to dump a contract so they could sign a 31 year old 2C to a 7x7 deal, that’s crazy talk.

Your takes are all very lazy and disingenuous.

1.) I was comparing the team to when Dubas took over, not now. Dubas took over when the players were 21-23, not 26+.

2.) Dubas could have traded the core for older players on retirement contracts if he was still the GM, luckily he is not.

3.) The scenerio you point out is a 26 year old who refuses to sign and is about to take his QO and leave for nothing - I would much prefer a 100+ point 30 year old than nothing.

4.) Dubas left the team in an even worse situation than the one you envisioned - because he has Matthews and Marner both on NMC's to UFA. Essentially, if you do not trade Matthews and Marner from now to July 1st, and if they refuse to sign - Dubas singlehandedly assured the Leafs lose both Matthews and Marner for nothing. 30 year old 100+ point players seem very appealing relative to that.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

San Jose traded down 11 to 27 for 34 and 45 the same offseason. How would trading down 25 to 38 be worth more than a 3rd?

Hard to say. Really depends on the team. The Avs traded down from 31 to 39 in 2015 and got a 2016 second and a 6th. Only down 8 spots and didn't lose out on the 1st round protection.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Hard to say. Really depends on the team. The Avs traded down from 31 to 39 in 2015 and got a 2016 second and a 6th. Only down 8 spots and didn't lose out on the 1st round protection.

Depends on the year more than the team imo, 2015 was stacked, 2022 was the opposite. Nobody is trading down 11 to 27 in 2015 for a pair of 2nds.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Not even trashing him, but there's a sector of our fan base which basically follows Dubas as if he's some religious prophet and claim he's one of the greatest GMs in the league. It get's extremely annoying, like there's people that legitimate love this guy more than the team and pretend like he never did anything wrong.

I’m picturing a Dubas lemmings meme now, and his followers going over the cliff.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Depends on the year more than the team imo, 2015 was stacked, 2022 was the opposite. Nobody is trading down 11 to 27 in 2015 for a pair of 2nds.

Very hard to quantify since there's so many variables.

Either way, out of all the teams that's used up draft capital to win now, how many teams have accomplished less than the leafs?

 

[stardog]

I mean, let's not ignore how many 2nd's he traded to dump bad contracts *he* signed.

Remember that Nick Ritchie guy? The Kadri for Barrie trade? Trading for David Rittich? Nick Foligno? Trading Mason Marchment? There's a long list of failures that lie solely on Dubas.

He had a competitive advantage in having ownership allow him to eat salary and trade away players he signed the same offseason and still made nothing of it. I think it'd be very difficult to make the case that another GM could have worse results than Dubas had as GM of the Leafs.

Ron Hextall is far worse

 

[tucker3434]

Ownership is a greater variable for success than perceived "windows." I would rather go to a franchise with all the resources and infrastructure to build a competitive system than go to a team with young players but no infrastructure and unknown ownership.

Nah, a successful prospect pool just makes owners look brilliant. Chicago was a model on-ice franchise up until all their best players ran out of gas and they cratered. Time comes for everyone and the only way out is the prospect pool and some luck. Owners can’t write checks for that.

 

[FerrisRox]

I think if he was fired for the right reasons - there wouldn't be this outrage. It's simply because he wasn't let go for his skill, rather the money and emotional aspect

I think he was let go for the right reasons.

He badly bungled the contract negotiations for Mitch Marner, Auston Matthews and with William Nylander he was unable to get a contract until after the season had begun.

He was fired because he badly bungled his own contract negotiations.

I personally feel that Dubas is a top 10 GM now.

Based on what?

Don't results matter?

Look at the rosters he's built - they quite obviously were not teams that were ever going to have post season success.

What criteria could you possibly be using that would make Kyle Dubas a top ten GM in the league?!?

 

[Alexei Yashvalev]

What criteria could you possibly be using that would make Kyle Dubas a top ten GM in the league?!?

You could theoretically argue that since the Leafs made the second round they're a top 8 team in the league and therefore Dubas was a top 8 GM for that year.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

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Man I love my Leafs, but hmmmmmmmm a LITTLE nervous about what's about to go down.

 

[FerrisRox]

The net loss on Mrazek was 12 spots or whatever in a draft, not the complete loss of a 1st. He also drafted/traded for both Kapanen and Sandin, not sure who he inherited here.

You gave away a first and gained a 2nd.

Pretending it's not a complete loss of a first isn't even semantics, it's quite simply wrong.

The Leafs had a first round pick.

They traded it away.

They did not get a first round pick back.

They did not have a first round pick.

It's just silly to pretend they didn't have a "complete loss" of a first round pick.

You could theoretically argue that since the Leafs made the second round they're a top 8 team in the league and therefore Dubas was a top 8 GM for that year.

Sounds like a terrific argument.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

You gave away a first and gained a 2nd.

Pretending it's not a complete loss of a first isn't even semantics, it's quite simply wrong.

The Leafs had a first round pick.

They traded away.

They did not get a first round pick back.

They did not have a first round pick.

It's just silly to pretend they didn't have a "complete loss" of a first round pick.



Sounds like a terrific argument.

I mean unless I'm unaware, do the Leafs not own Boston's 1st round pick this year?

Will the new GM use that to get rid of Murray like Dubas would surely do? I hope not.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Very hard to quantify since there's so many variables.

Either way, out of all the teams that's used up draft capital to win now, how many teams have accomplished less than the leafs?

The results weren’t there, no one is arguing this point, but what is the suggestion? Don’t ever trade 1sts for rentals like your competition is doing every year? Even if you trade one of the core or hire a different coach or whatever other thing you think would have fixed the Leafs, they’d still be spending 1sts on rentals like 95% of other teams in their situation do.

 

[Turin]

Nah, a successful prospect pool just makes owners look brilliant. Chicago was a model on-ice franchise up until all their best players ran out of gas and they cratered. Time comes for everyone and the only way out is the prospect pool and some luck. Owners can’t write checks for that.

How many good prospect pools amounted to nothing? How many franchises are consistently near the top almost every year?

 

[notbias]

How many first round picked prospects are on the leafs roster or reserved list from dubas' entire tenure as GM.

One? Zero?

One was just traded because he signed or traded for too many better players and the other one has brain cancer.

Kind of a dumb thing to point out.

 

[tucker3434]

How many good prospect pools amounted to nothing? How many franchises are consistently near the top almost every year?

It happens. Nobody pulls out of a rebuild without a good prospect pool.

Indefinitely? None. The wings had the longest run I can remember since they basically transferred straight from one HOF core to another, but that basically never happens. And even they went to hell at the end of it all.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

One was just traded because he signed or traded for too many better players and the other one has brain cancer.

Kind of a dumb thing to point out.

He traded future first round pick and 2nd round picks for those replacement player and got no where. Dubas' is just burning picks.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Heres a juicy rumor I heard.... Dubas will become President of the Penguins and Spezza the GM

Giggles for GM…

Who knows, he might be better than Dubas (not a high bar).

 

[AcerComputer]

You gave away a first and gained a 2nd.

Pretending it's not a complete loss of a first isn't even semantics, it's quite simply wrong.

The Leafs had a first round pick.

They traded away.

They did not get a first round pick back.

They did not have a first round pick.

It's just silly to pretend they didn't have a "complete loss" of a first round pick.



Sounds like a terrific argument.

Extremely dumb and bad logic. Not all 1st round picks are equal in value. Imagine if you had the 1st overall pick and traded down to the 32nd overall for a couple of 2nd round picks, but you say, at least we didn't lose a 1st round pick. An argument no rational person would make.

The exact draft slot is irrelevant when trying to compare one draft to another because every draft has what is called Tiers. Most drafts after the first 20 picks open up, and you see guys who may have been rated in the 2nd or 3rd round taken late in the 1st round, and you see 1st round rated talent fall to the 2nd round. The value of trading down was marginal at best in 2022 considering they took a guy at 38 who they were happy to take at 25 anyways. When you factor in that most people thought the Leafs would have had to trade a 1st round pick outright to unload Mrazek vs dropping only 13 slots, I think it's a waste of time to play revisionist history and the what if game, and hindsight 20/20. I think the trading down worked out fine in the end.

 

[FerrisRox]

I mean unless I'm unaware, do the Leafs not own Boston's 1st round pick this year?

Will the new GM use that to get rid of Murray like Dubas would surely do? I hope not.

Mrazek was traded along with a 2022 1st rounder, so what they have this year has nothing to do with that transaction.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

Mrazek was traded along with a 2022 1st rounder, so what they have this year has nothing to do with that transaction.

I'm just saying, based on history, "what would Dubas probably do here?" And it's just another reason I'm glad he's gone.

That doesn't mean I think the next Leafs GM will do any better. And honestly I'm a little scared.

Bergy? That would be weird........to say the least.