Confirmed with Link: Kyle Dubas Not Returning

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Seems really on par with what we know. Dubas had plenty of blunders just as bad... and I'm a fan of Dubas. But I don't think it's fair to say what Treliving did and had to do was terrible in comparison in retrospect.

Gotta look at the good as well if you want a better picture though. Go through his drafts and look at the trades that netted them good players. There's a lot of good there.

But I agree on paper it's a downgrade probably.
Letting Gaudeau get to that point was awful. The trade itself for Tkachuk wasnt even that bad, but extending at that time was very questionable and showed a lack of vision.


With that said, we've hired the consensus best in the business before in Burke and Babcock, both flamed out. We've hired inexperience and experienced, neither has worked.

So many factors that go into these decisions and maybe its just a change of scenery and resources to make those jumps. I dont think any of us have a clue how the next person will do.
 
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Somehow I knew Jonas wouldn't understand what Shanny was saying.

What Jonas fails to understand is the President is above the GM, and the Board is above the President, and that relationship is vertical and power is asymmetrical. So yes, the GM serves at the pleasure of their superiors, they can leave him dangling for a year, and they can let you go for wavering in your commitment. The GM probably isn't going to be able to win a tit for tat and snub those who sign his pay cheque. That's just hubris to think otherwise.
 
Fox wasnt signing and hamilton was a headcase.. that was a strong trade

Douggie's not a headcase, he's just a loner/introvert.

And maybe it says something about a GM where guys keep wanting out. Fox, Tkachuk, Johnny Hockey, etc.
 
He was using the opportunity to extract more from the Leafs but showing his ambivalence.

It looked like Kyle Dubas overplayed his hand vs his superiors like Rasmus Sandin overplayed his vs Dubas in the summer. Only problem here is the GM is usually the representative of the owner, board and president in the world, so to have that clear a split is just untenable.
 
He traded Hamilton and Fox through for Lindholm and Hanifin, so I can't exactly praise him there. And he gave up a 1st for Toffoli.

More egregiously bad moves in there than good tbh. Although I like him emphasizing toughness.

Fox didn't want to sign and Hamilton wasn't working out and they made a tough change. I think it worked out for them after a tough decision. Fox never played for Carolina and Hamilton while good left in UFA. He did give up a 1st for Toffoli, multiple seasons of him at a good rate and signed for another season below 5M. Dubas gave up a lot of 1st round picks, right? They did that trade while being one of the best teams in the NHL at the time.

The big difference is that Treliving lost his Nylander to free agency and then dumped his Marner for an overpaid 1-way winger and a solid defenseman.

For the most part I think you're being really harsh on Treliving and way too high on Dubas. Not completely wrong but still a little one sided. They have very similar overall outcomes.
 
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Why was an unsettled GM so willing to get in front of the media? A little bit unprofessional in hindsight.
Not really unprofessional at all. He spike about the season, his team, and what he'd consider, as the GM at that time. Didnt Keefe speak as well? Nobody expects him back
 
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What was he supposed to do with Johnny. You have a good team arguably a mid-tier contender but your star doesn't want to sign with you? He made a choice and his goaltender failed him.

How about get an extension before M-NTC kicks or trade Johnny to get some assets back. He then proceeds to sign Kadri and trades for Huberdeau compounding the problem further. That is one mess that will take years to recover.
 
Dubas talking himself out of a dream job is pure comedy. He truly believed he was the only worthy candidate here and the organization were going to bend over to his demands. Got humbled in the process and should probably fire his agent into the sun.

Never trust someone who believes they are the smartest person in the room.
 
Douggie's not a headcase, he's just a loner/introvert.

And maybe it says something about a GM where guys keep wanting out. Fox, Tkachuk, Johnny Hockey, etc.
Ok.. well hamilton wasnt working there

And there is somethjng in common with those three players that left
 
Its rare for a GM to walk into a situation taht dubas walked in with the Leafs with plenty of cap space, inherited talent that made making playoffs easy, plenty of picks/prospects and a board that was spending money like halloween candies (ex: Babcock getting paid 25 million dollars to sit at home)
Yes Dubas was handed a core that could make the playoffs easily, but that same core for 7 seasons couldn't achieve much playoff success that people are now complaining about and wanting to be changed because they're too soft, not gritty enough, can't score when they need it most etc. So which is it? Was Dubas handed a great core and if so why do Leafs fans complain year after year that some or all of them underperformed and aren't good enough and one or more need to be moved?

That's what Dubas has worked with for the past 7 seasons. A talented core that had weaknesses. Dubas tried to address the weaknesses in the team to support the core and so far it has resulted in relative little playoff success outside of 1 playoff round. Is it the fault of Dubas or is it the fault of the Leafs top players for not stepping up and playing better?


Not to even mention the ridiculous contracts he signed
What ridiculous contracts did Dubas hand out to players in his time as GM here? Fine just say for the moment that Matthews and Marner are 'overpaid'. Who else did he overpay? Nylander has turned into a good contract. Tavares isn't bad by free agent standards. Rielly could be bad if he can't play like he did in the playoffs consistently, but if he can play nearly as well then its a good contract.

Mrazek is a bad one. Holl? Not the best, but far from the worst and it was relatively short term. Richie? Not great, but not the worst too. Short term contract for him to prove himself and it didn't work out. So help me out which of his other signings fall into the 'ridiculous' category?

Which contract did Dubas hand out that comes even close to Nikita Zaitzev or Matt Martin levels of bad that was given by Lou?
 
Dubas talking himself out of a dream job is pure comedy. He truly believed he was the only worthy candidate here and the organization were going to bend over to his demands. Got humbled in the process and should probably fire his agent into the sun.

Never trust someone who believes they are the smartest person in the room.

What's interesting to me is it was reported by Dreger that Matthews will just march into MLSE and put down a take it or leave it demand and it seems like the GM was ready to make the same play. Whether that's true or not, I think it is time for the organization to change the perception that it's just a push over ATM machine. The sausage making process is probably going to be gross, but it does look like the organization needs to restore some dignity in terms of having standards, being respected in negotiations, and recognized as a special place to play and work for. I just don't want to see my team held hostage like that.
 
How about get an extension before M-NTC kicks or trade Johnny to get some assets back. He then proceeds to sign Kadri and trades for Huberdeau compounding the problem further. That is one mess that will take years to recover.
Like i said he made a choice.. maybe winning more could have convinced johnny but yeah it sucks.. the main player on a good team not wanting to or keeping his cards close

It wont take much to turn calgary back into a playoff team .. historically bad luck versus excellent underlying numbers across the board... which matter... yes?
 
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Ok.. well hamilton wasnt working there

And there is somethjng in common with those three players that left

What is it? I can't think of two players more different than Hamilton and Tkachuk. One is a soft, quite introvert. The other a loudmouth leader (I say this begrudgingly). Don't know much about Fox's personality.

All 3 are supremely skilled though.
 
What is it? I can't think of two players more different than Hamilton and Tkachuk. One is a soft, quite introvert. The other a loudmouth leader (I say this begrudgingly). Don't know much about Fox's personality.

All 3 are supremely skilled though.
American
 
Kind of crazy that people think that Shanny made the decision to let Kyle go when clearly it was the other way around. This was 100% Dubas' decision to leave. He was not fired. And the takes that I have seen... Woof.

Now the reason is not entirely clear, but I do not think it is a major stretch, based on what Shanny had to say about money not being the issue, to think Kyle decided that it was not worth it if he did not more control over the vision of the team going forward. And I would not be surprised if that is effectively what yesterday's email said... And that is not possible in this market or with Shanny on board. Because more or less, that means Dubas wants Shanny's job.

Sucks that he decided to leave, because he is probably better than every candidate available to replace him right now, but I do not blame him for pursuing an opportunity that he will almost certainly be able to get elsewhere that is better for him and his family than whatever he would get here. He can move up the ladder, probably have a less stressful environment, probably have more control over the roster and how to build it, and the money will likely still exceed what he gets as only a GM in Toronto even if it is a smaller market. The only downside is that the team may not be quite as good as Toronto is right now, but he can probably build it up to that in a short period of time.

I just hope that Shanny doesn't go for a recycled puppet just because he has experience. I would rather go for someone who is inexperienced and unproven, but obviously still qualified and prepared to take on a role of this magnitude, than someone who has been proven to be poor at their job... Like most available experienced GM's are.

This is certainly going to be an exciting offseason though!
just worth reading this again...

good comedic value in there. right through to the barking....

kids these days
 
My thoughts on Kyle.
 

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Love him or hate him, Steve Simmons from the Toronto Sun makes some very good points regarding former Toronto Maple Leafs GM Kyle Dubas' clear misreading of his circumstance, Brendan Shanahan, Maple Leafs ownership, and overplayed his hand, somehow turning an extension offer of more than market value — five years and probably close to $4 million a season — into no offer at all when he shot for the moon with his counter-offer and in doing so, basically shot himself.


Dubas clearly misread his circumstance, misread Shanahan, misread Maple Leafs ownership, and overplayed his hand, somehow turning an extension offer of more than market value — five years and probably close to $4 million a season — into no offer at all when he shot for the moon with his counter-offer and in doing so, basically shot himself.

I have been present for a lot of firing press conferences over the years but nothing quite like this one before. Usually, a grim-faced owner or president says a few words, thanks the fired boss for his contributions, and then moves on to questions.

That’s the way it usually goes.

But there was nothing quite normal about the Leafs today and we wait now to see what tomorrow might bring.

And there was nothing quite normal about Shanahan going into extensive detail — minute details really — in explaining why Dubas was fired, how Dubas was fired and the doubt about him that began to seep in on Monday afternoon after the GM’s post-season availability.

That was the beginning of the end for Dubas as GM of the Leafs. In somewhat surprising form, Dubas went public with his personal doubts about staying as a GM in the NHL, talking about the toll it has taken on his life and the life of his family. The Leafs and Shanahan had some idea about whatever had been bothering Dubas and his family but clearly Shanahan — and possibly Leafs ownership — didn’t appreciate the public way in which Dubas chose to express his feelings and also began to worry about the 24/7 nature job and the toll it has taken on him.

They would have liked to have heard all that for themselves, behind closed doors. They didn’t want anyone’s laundry, personal or professional, being hung out to dry for the public to chew on. Monday’s availability rattled the cages inside Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment and certainly got to Shanahan in various ways.


This was hard on his family,” Shanahan said of the life of a public figure, especially a figure as public as the Leafs GM. “Quite frankly, it’s hard on all of our families.”

After Dubas went public about his personal challenges, Shanahan admitted there was a “dramatic shift in my thinking. In the next few days, I didn’t get any more clarity.”

When they met on Wednesday, two days after Dubas went public and two days before the firing, “I had more questions than answers,” said Shanahan.

On Thursday, Shanahan got a call from Dubas’ agent, an agent better known for golf than hockey. There was a new financial package from the Dubas side, a mistaken counter-offer of sorts. “The conversation was brief,” said Shanahan. He knew what he was suddenly thinking. After wanting to give Dubas an extension last summer and being told no by Leafs owners, Shanahan made another offer to keep him.
 
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