Confirmed with Link: Kyle Dubas Not Returning

[Stephen]

Burke’s ego was his downfall as a GM, he thought he could do a quick turnaround here in Toronto, and we all know how that story ends……..

He could wheel and deal to his hearts content with what we have in place now. We have more of a talent showcase now but he could mould it into a more cohesive team.

 

[ACC1224]

And what do you think of Brian Burke?

For me, Burke isn’t or wasn’t the kind of GM who could build a comprehensive ground up program for you in a methodical way but I think he’s almost a better GM fit for Toronto in 2023 than he was in 2008. Not advocating or supporting that obviously but he would be a better finishing touches GM.

Burke may be the most intelligent man in the league.
I'm a big fan, he cracks me up, love his act.

He wasn't very good here but he probably wasn't given enough of a chance.
One thing you can say about Burke is he's not afraid to make changes if things aren't working out.

 

[rumman]

He could wheel and deal to his hearts content with what we have in place now. We have more of a talent showcase now but he could mould it into a more cohesive team.

We’ll know what the game plan is once we know who’s hired as GM, if it’s a bean counter they’re running it back if it’s a guy with a history of making moves they’ve blowing it up, at least a good part of it imo………

Burke may be the most intelligent man in the league.
I'm a big fan, he cracks me up, love his act.

He wasn't very good here but he probably wasn't given enough of a chance.
One thing you can say about Burke is he's not afraid to make changes if things aren't working out.

He’s certainly knowledgeable and a funny guy too, but I only put my hand on the stove once, if you catch my drift………

 

[Larcos_Unal]

No, they didn't. They converted badly most of the series. There's a difference, even if most people on this board can't recognize it.

"They didn't play like garbage, they converted badly." ©

 

[socko]

Kyle Dubas gave away a first round pick for 11 games of old broke back Nick Foligno. Now, that is a bad trade.

 

[rumman]

He was 22. Not 27. He wasn't going to carry a franshise, needed a number 1 center for that, but damn fine player.

That team needed a lot of things before a one dimensional sniper imo……..

 

[socko]

That team needed a lot of things before a one dimensional sniper imo……..

This is true. But those guys in Edmonton don't exactly play defense. Snipers that show up in the playoffs have a lot of value.

 

[rumman]

This is true. But those guys in Edmonton don't exactly play defense. Snipers that show up in the playoffs have a lot of value.

If you get to the playoffs……..

 

[saffronleaf]

Kyle really had me fooled. I didn’t realize he had such a HUGE ego. An ego sure but not one this big.

big, thicc, pulsating

 

[ACC1224]

We’ll know what the game plan is once we know who’s hired as GM, if it’s a bean counter they’re running it back if it’s a guy with a history of making moves they’ve blowing it up, at least a good part of it imo………


He’s certainly knowledgeable and a funny guy too, but I only put my hand on the stove once, if you catch my drift………

I wasn't suggesting bringing him back.

 

[Stephen]

Burke may be the most intelligent man in the league.
I'm a big fan, he cracks me up, love his act.

He wasn't very good here but he probably wasn't given enough of a chance.
One thing you can say about Burke is he's not afraid to make changes if things aren't working out.

We were definitely on opposite sides of the Burke divide when he was here. But there is often a time and a place for specific personalities, executive styles, player types and so much of Burke’s era was the wrong place, wrong time, wrong mix, wrong sequence. 2023 Leafs would have definitely benefited more from him than in 2008. Whatever today’s equivelanet of McLaren, Orr, Beauchemin and Komisarek would be, they would actually make sense. I really didn’t like Schenn back in the day as a 5th overall. Now I love him.

 

[Dekes For Days]

None of the above changes the fact that we have 4 forwards making 50% of the cap and all we get is playoff failure and fresh excuses.

31 teams in the league (with all different sorts of cap allocations) get playoff failure (or worse) and fresh "excuses" every year.

too bad our goalie didn’t give us the chance that goalie Bob has given his team.

Yeah, give it to pretty much any team in the playoffs and they're probably in the cup finals. And he was their 3rd goalie and considered one of the worst contracts in the league heading into the playoffs.

So team outcomes haven’t been in our favour because reasons beyond them, then my question is why bother spending up that much cap in 4 players if they can’t lift the team up and it’s just random chance

It's not just random chance. But there is a limit to how much any one skater can impact team outcomes. That is just an inherent part of hockey that is made worse by how the NHL operates. You spend the money on those players because they contribute a ton to your hockey team. I've yet to see a realistic proposal to get rid of them that makes us better. And it feels like a lot of fans don't care, because their emotions drive them to prefer being different and worse over the same and the same/better, but I'd prefer to just do what's best for the team and our chances to win the cup during the our best chances to do so.

 

[rumman]

I wasn't suggesting bringing him back.

I knew that…….

 

[notbias]

You continuously list a pile of shit and pretend its good lol

Mete, Kral, Hollowell, and Kokkonen are nothing prospects/players. They are guys who play 5-10 games a season in the NHL if a team has injuries

Timmins is almost 25 and a guy who isn't able to have relied on continuously, Lilijgren needs to take a step this year, you can't be in your D+7 and be a bottom-pairing defenseman.

The only guys who are promising are:

Lilijgren (ceiling Brodie level player with 35-40 pts if he takes the next step)
Niemela (has some nice upside, despite a poor statistical year in Finland. Ceiling #3D provides puck movement and offense, but is another 2-3 years away from reaching this level) - 40% chance he reaches this level
Villeneuve (some nice potential could be a top 4D but again he is 2-3 years away and needs to continue to improve. He could fizzle and be a Dermott-level player if he doesn't progress.) - 20% chance he reaches his ceiling

Koster is fairly solid too but we don't have him signed yet and he is going into his 4th NCAA season. We will see with him, but he is a pretty good pick

We have Lilijgren + 2 signed prospects with top 4D upside, and 1 unsigned prospect with top 4D upside

The pool isn't crazy deep, like your making it seem

You continuously list a bunch of players and show your lack of knowledge. Your ceilings are too low.

We currently have 3 top 4D (Rielly, McCabe, Liljegren) signed past next year and under 30. That seems good to me.

We need a top pairing right D (Liljegren/Niemela could be that), and we already have some guys who can be bottom pairing D (Mete, Kral, and Timmins).

This is far from bad.

It is a combination of the D we have and in our system that makes it not bad, never said we have a deep prospect pool.

 

[hamzarocks]

You continuously list a bunch of players and show your lack of knowledge. Your ceilings are too low.

We currently have 3 top 4D (Rielly, McCabe, Liljegren) signed past next year and under 30. That seems good to me.

We need a top pairing right D (Liljegren/Niemela could be that), and we already have some guys who can be bottom pairing D (Mete, Kral, and Timmins).

This is far from bad.

It is a combination of the D we have and in our system that makes it not bad, never said we have a deep prospect pool.

We have a crappy prospect pool.

Your just riding for dubas again despite him being gone

Lilijgren has shown little to believe he is a top pairing elite D

Niemela just had a down year and is entering his D+4 year looking no more certain to be a top pairing NHL player

The fact you list mete as an actual bottom pairing d is just hilarious

Guys like him, kral, mac, kokkonen are the marincins/connor carricks of our team

If our defense goes to shit they play other wise they should be far away from the team

We have a #1D not an elite one but a low end 1D in rielly

After that we have 1 other top 4 D entering this season

Brodie who is a #4 and saw decline last year

The defense needs major upgrade

McCabe is a bottom pairing D, a good one but we saw him struggle in the playoffs in a higher role

Giordano is washed and a non NHLer who needs to be healthy scratched more then he plays next year

Lilijgren is a bottom pairing D atm but he has potential to rise. Probably his last big chance to move up otherwise he gets moved. He'll get minutes, needs to avoid breakdowns and bring more consistent puck transitioning and offense

Of course your one of the three most biased leaf fans on these boards, so homerism from you is a norm

 

[Dekes For Days]

The Leafs were rebuilding when Lou came on board. When the Leafs made the playoffs against Washington they weren’t expected to make it that season as it was still the process of building from within. I would hope Dubas’ team were better since he took them over when the rebuild was over.

The rebuild was over when we drafted Matthews, sent out high picks for a starting goalie, and drained our prospect pool into the NHL. How successful that rebuild would be had yet to be seen, but it was over. And that was only solidified when we started chasing big name UFAs like Marleau. I'm not sure how people can squabble over insignificant contract amounts, and then not recognize what a big advantage saving tens of millions in cap space from having a bunch of players (including stars) on ELCs is.

Lou had one year to fix the holes on the team

Lou had multiple years to fix the holes on the team, and not only did he not fix them, he created new ones.

Dubas had 5 years to improve the team.

He had a better team in one offseason.

If Lou stuck around of course he would continue to improve the team and his team would look better compared to the early teams.

If Lou stuck around, he probably would have driven this team off a cliff, and we'd be begging to just make the playoffs again.

 

[notbias]

We have a crappy prospect pool.

Your just riding for dubas again despite him being gone

Lilijgren has shown little to believe he is a top pairing elite D

Niemela just had a down year and is entering his D+4 year looking no more certain to be a top pairing NHL player

The fact you list mete as an actual bottom pairing d is just hilarious

Guys like him, kral, mac, kokkonen are the marincins/connor carricks of our team

If our defense goes to shit they play other wise they should be far away from the team

We have a #1D not an elite one but a low end 1D in rielly

After that we have 1 other top 4 D entering this season

Brodie who is a #4 and saw decline last year

The defense needs major upgrade

McCabe is a bottom pairing D, a good one but we saw him struggle in the playoffs in a higher role

Giordano is washed and a non NHLer who needs to be healthy scratched more then he plays next year

Lilijgren is a bottom pairing D atm but he has potential to rise. Probably his last big chance to move up otherwise he gets moved. He'll get minutes, needs to avoid breakdowns and bring more consistent puck transitioning and offense

Of course your one of the three most biased leaf fans on these boards, so homerism from you is a norm

You really need to watch more hockey.

Niemela had a down year after a record-breaking one.

Our prospect pool is usually ranked in the mid-range, which is good for a team continually making the playoffs.

Mete is a bottom-pairing D on most teams.

I believe Kral is already better than Gio, he is so underrated.

Low-end #1D? He's mid, and if playoffs are what matters he is elite.

McCabe is not a bottom pairing, he is a 3/4.

Of course you are one of the biggest Leaf hates on these boards, so homerism from you is a norm

 

[ACC1224]

We were definitely on opposite sides of the Burke divide when he was here. But there is often a time and a place for specific personalities, executive styles, player types and so much of Burke’s era was the wrong place, wrong time, wrong mix, wrong sequence. 2023 Leafs would have definitely benefited more from him than in 2008. Whatever today’s equivelanet of McLaren, Orr, Beauchemin and Komisarek would be, they would actually make sense. I really didn’t like Schenn back in the day as a 5th overall. Now I love him.

Agree with all of that.

I have no idea how people can remember who was on which side of what.....

 

[Stephen]

Agree with all of that.

I have no idea how people can remember who was on which side of what.....

Well, if you said you liked him… and I remember I didn’t… viola!

 

[hamzarocks]

You really need to watch more hockey.

Niemela had a down year after a record-breaking one.

Our prospect pool is usually ranked in the mid-range, which is good for a team continually making the playoffs.

Mete is a bottom-pairing D on most teams.

I believe Kral is already better than Gio, he is so underrated.

Low-end #1D? He's mid, and if playoffs are what matters he is elite.

McCabe is not a bottom pairing, he is a 3/4.

(MOD)

Continued dumb takes

You can't be serious with Kral > Gio mattering right?

Who cares if he is. Both stink and are not NHL D-man

Mete got booted from habs/sens some terrible teams

Your projecting the few strong prospects we have and pretending it makes our whole prospect pool

We have a weak prospect pool, we have 1 d-prospect with some certainty of being a top 4D (Niemela) and 1 top 6 W prospect with certainty (Knies)

Everyone after that is different strokes of long shots

The guys your salviating over are commonly found in prospect pools of contending teams and no one cares about them as they are long shots

McCabe is no where near a 3/4D that is Brodie lol

McCabe had a poor playoff run and has had huge issues with consistency and injuries his whole career.

We can give him more time as he hasnt been here long but he is pretty limited and not someone you want as better than your 4th best D on a cup team with that needing 3 really good D in front of him

Rielly again we will need to watch if hes healthy. I didnt want to rate him a top 10D based off just the playoffs this year. He is great but we need more of him

 

[ToneDog]

"They didn't play like garbage, they converted badly." ©

View attachment 713708

You must be another one of the many people on this board that can't recognize it. You need to look harder Simba.

 

[notbias]

Continued dumb takes

You can't be serious with Kral > Gio mattering right?

Who cares if he is. Both stink and are not NHL D-man

Mete got booted from habs/sens some terrible teams

Your projecting the few strong prospects we have and pretending it makes our whole prospect pool

We have a weak prospect pool, we have 1 d-prospect with some certainty of being a top 4D (Niemela) and 1 top 6 W prospect with certainty (Knies)

Everyone after that is different strokes of long shots

The guys your salviating over are commonly found in prospect pools of contending teams and no one cares about them as they are long shots

I'll just leave the last comment as, I truly believe you have no clue what you're talking about and haven't watched a single prospect of ours, and have no clue about prospect pools around the league, your takes are terrible.

 

[Stephen]

I'll just leave the last comment as, I truly believe you have no clue what you're talking about and haven't watched a single prospect of ours, and have no clue about prospect pools around the league, your takes are terrible.

Depth chart write ups are never really that useful when you’re not comparing guys like Mete, Kokkonen, Koster, Kral and Niemela to the kind of opposition you’re likely to play against deeper into the playoffs.

Just try to visualize how each of those prospects will compete vs real final four defense corps with names like Pietrangelo, Theodore, Hague, Whitecloud, Slavin, Pesce, Ekblad, Montour, Skeji, Burns, Heiskanen.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Tough lessons of the Stanley Cup playoffs: Inside the Canes' collapse, plus the next 'copycat' trend

With the conference finals nearing an end, here's more of what teams and fans have learned -- and what still needs reinforcement.

www.espn.com

Here's what I hope isn't true about the departure of Kyle Dubas: That a public admission about consulting with his family about next career steps -- and the strain that his job with the Leafs has put on his family -- was actually processed as a sign of weakness and wavering commitment by team president Brendan Shanahan.

"As Kyle expressed, he might not want to be our GM," Shanahan said. "And I have to take that very seriously."

From a mental health perspective, this is gross.

We spend more time now talking about the full scope of life for players, coaches and executives than we ever have in the NHL. I've heard people claim Dubas wasn't "all-in" for the Toronto job because of these comments, that the concerns for an individual's wellbeing don't apply when the job is as vitally important as general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs. Heaven forbid.

Yet that's exactly why we focus on mental health now in professional sports. To break that stigma. To not have a world where "I want to discuss this with my family" is met with "huh, I don't know if this guy's really committed here."

I've known Shanahan for years. I'm hoping this was just something he seized on as part of the public justification for splitting with Dubas. I can't imagine an individual with his character and moral compass would actually buy that.

What I believe to be true about Kyle Dubas: That he acted as any pending free agent would -- and not just by saying he needed to talk to his family about next steps, which is what every player with a family says whether they re-sign or don't.

His contract with the Leafs ends this summer. He famously bet on himself and won. OK, won a playoff round, but that's more than Brian Burke, Dave Nonis and Lou Lamoriello won in Toronto. So he had that juice. And he also had options: The Pittsburgh Penguins have president of hockey operations and general manager openings. The Ottawa Senators' new ownership could potentially offer him their top job.

Multiple NHL sources have told me that Dubas was looking for equal hockey management power to Shanahan and a salary that would be commensurate with that power. If that's the case, then I get it: What team president is going to fight to retain an underling that wants both of them sharing a chair at the head of the table at the same time? Ever try to sit two-to-a-chair? It's as uncomfortable as having the person you supervise asking for your salary.

Dubas shot his shot. He flew too close to the sun in the centre of the hockey universe. The Leafs lost a brilliant young executive. Dubas lost a job he genuinely loved. That's business. I truly want to believe that's the determining factor in all of this rather than hockey culture once again trouncing someone's emotional vulnerability.

So a snowflake melted. Big deal.

 

[francis246]

Miracle?? Now I know you're just trolling lmao

Let's see the list of excuses:
pandemic induced cap stagnation - every team had to deal with that
bad drafting pre-Dubas - he had 5 years to right the ship, what about Dubas' drafting?
injury - every team has injuries

They've earned their contracts in the regular season, if this was EPL that would be fine. They don't do enough in the playoffs collectively, that doesn't cut it. It's not a one-off either, it's year after year of not getting the job done. I don't care of they play great teams, get goalied, suffer bad puck luck, the core simply does not get the job done.

Covid stagnating the cap is a true excuse. However where Dubas loses me is they didn’t pivot or adjust once that information was brought to them. Once they knew the cap wasn’t going to jump, they should have adjusted and tried something new. Or tried to move one of the guys.