Kyle Dubas - - Horrible Asset Mismanagement

[The Hanging Jowl]

If a Hyman is extracting this kind of money in flat cap era, what is Morgs going to get on an open market and what’s Dubas’ plan there? Will we let another asset walk for nothing, can we even afford him?

As an aside, that it all just boils down to a zero sum game with the cap, you lose a Hyman, you simply add his salary elsewhere, that’s the most simplistic bs going. You’re hard pressed to replace Hyman, the guy was a heart and soul player here, could play on a checking line, could play with the big boys, great PK, great holding a lead, great inspiration. It isn’t that easy to simply slot in another comparable at his cap hit, if only sport was that simple.

All true but wouldn't it have been nice if at least one of our young players took a team-friendly deal? Especially the guy from a rich family that by all accounts made it clear he wants to be a Leaf? That's the main reason I'm not upset about losing him (the other reason being concerns over his knee). It's also why Spezza is becoming my favourite Leaf more and more because after his first season here, it was pretty obvious he was worth a lot more than league minimum yet he continues to accept this because he wants to be a Leaf and wants to do anything he can to help them win including giving up a couple of million a year.

 

[Gary Nylund]

we talk about cap management but do you hear TB saying maybe we should move Kucherov cause we are over the cap and have Point up for a new deal next year. Nope, they keep their stars and shuffle around the bottom of the roster. They value their stars.

Ok yes our 2 stars had a rough go last year. Really it's Marner the last 2 playoffs who has really sucked with 4 assists in each playoff but more it's about his unwillingness to engage in the different level the playoffs bring. He said against CBJ he didn't realize how physical it was. MTL same thing shied away from contact and played like crap.

Matthews on the other hand has produced and this year had a rough go but think about it your wingers both stink and then MTL decided to double and triple-team you. Hard to produce 3 on 1.

Dubas or the next GM test will be if there is another 1st round flameout and Marner has his usual scared playoffs will that GM have the balls to move Marner for whatever they can get and use the cap space to better the team.

Kucherov and Point have been awesome in the playoffs so there's zero reason for TB to move them. The same can't be said for our stars so this is a really, really bad comparison. Do you really think anyone would be talking about moving our stars had they had the kind of playoffs that the TB stars had?

I agree it's too early to give up on Matthews but the fact that you say "usual scared playoffs" about Marner says it all. I say move him right now because one more shitty playoff performance and his resale value will take a huge hit.

 

[hullsy47]

In which case were f..ked as I have no reason to expect Marner not to suck once again in the playoffs and that puts us in a big hole right off the bat.

If MSLE board is not embarrassed by Kyle dubas I'd be surprised
That eye rolling crap is pathetic
You will never fix your core if they own u
ANY OTHER companies CEO would have came out and said the core is flawed

 

[Ciao]

Not since the Amateur/Entry draft originated in 1969 have the Leafs ever made so few selections as in 3 in 2021 draft. Not even Draft Schmaft or Harold Ballard years have we witnessed anything close to this.

2021 - Missing 1st, 3rd, 4th, 7th and 2022 - Missing 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th. and already dealt a 7th in 2023.

Almost all of those picks used have no retainable value as they were all spent on rental players like Nick Foligno, David Rittich, Kyle Clifford, Ben Hutton, Riley Nash, McCann etc.

Leafs went all-in on 2021 playoffs at the expense of 2 future draft classes and never even made it out of round #1.

When you have high value assets and contracts then the entry draft and cheap ELC contracts is the lifeblood of sustaining a competitive roster by offsetting those costs with young players that can contribute at high levels for low cap costs.

Mortgaging your future for the present and overestimating the team current status as a competitor is something one would file under horrible asset management.

PS. Lou Lam once traded a pair of aging vets Roman Polak and Nick Spaling for a pair of 2nds to San Jose and then re-invested those acquired picks in Brian Boyle and Tomas Plekanec to prop up playoff teams and fans still cry bloody murder to this day about how terrible that was for asset management.

Nice narrative, but the draft used to have as many as 12 rounds.

If you want futility, I give you the 1999 draft. There were others as well.

The Leafs made 12 draft picks in seven rounds last year, and 30 total in the past four drafts. The draft cupboard is hardly bare.

Rant on, please.

 

[Dragao6]

It’s the big complaint I have is we always let ufa walk for free

 

[All Mod Cons]

Not since the Amateur/Entry draft originated in 1969 have the Leafs ever made so few selections as in 3 in 2021 draft. Not even Draft Schmaft or Harold Ballard years have we witnessed anything close to this.

2021 - Missing 1st, 3rd, 4th, 7th and 2022 - Missing 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th. and already dealt a 7th in 2023.

Almost all of those picks used have no retainable value as they were all spent on rental players like Nick Foligno, David Rittich, Kyle Clifford, Ben Hutton, Riley Nash, McCann etc.

Leafs went all-in on 2021 playoffs at the expense of 2 future draft classes and never even made it out of round #1.

When you have high value assets and contracts then the entry draft and cheap ELC contracts is the lifeblood of sustaining a competitive roster by offsetting those costs with young players that can contribute at high levels for low cap costs.

Mortgaging your future for the present and overestimating the team current status as a competitor is something one would file under horrible asset management.

PS. Lou Lam once traded a pair of aging vets Roman Polak and Nick Spaling for a pair of 2nds to San Jose and then re-invested those acquired picks in Brian Boyle and Tomas Plekanec to prop up playoff teams and fans still cry bloody murder to this day about how terrible that was for asset management.

Plekanec, Boyle for 2nd round pick = bad
Foligno for 1st, 3rd for Rittich, 5th for Hutton, Hallander and 7th for no one = good

 

[CapspaceKiller]

The fact he admitted he really hasn't talked to Rielly and his agent until recently has me a little scared he'll do the dumb easy thing and bring Rielly back without a new deal.

 

[conFABulator]

Nice narrative, but the draft used to have as many as 12 rounds.

If you want futility, I give you the 1999 draft. There were others as well.

The Leafs made 12 draft picks in seven rounds last year, and 30 total in the past four drafts. The draft cupboard is hardly bare.

Rant on, please.

I came here to say a similar thing. Obviously, the more high draft picks the better, and we didn't have a 1st this year. All contending teams trade high picks to bring in re-enforcements and that is what Dubas did.

However, we had 12 picks in 2020 and 3 picks in 2021...that is 15 in two years (though only 1 first) and I think there was some intentionality to this as well. Last year, the Leafs loaded up on 12 players that were all in Europe or NCAA - they played hockey...whereas teams that took CHL players lost a year of development, a critical year for their top prospects. This year the Leafs went all-in on their trading of picks and it is the biggest crap-shoot of a draft year in NHL history. This was not coincidental...it would be better if didn't trade our picks only to not get out of the first round again and in hindsight, a second-rounder for Hall would have been better than a first for broken down Foligno...but let's also give credit where credit is due and I like this approach to loading up on Europeans last year and having only a few picks this year.

Also, as noted above the cupboard is hardly bare with Robertson, Sandin, Amirov, Liljegren, Anderson, Niemela, Kokkonen, Miettinen and others ready to join in the next year or two.

 

[Aus34Matt]

I think it's good he's sticking to his ask.

It's an investment in letting the league know you are not a pushover in negotiations.

Too late for that.

 

[Smif]

Plekanec, Boyle for 2nd round pick = bad
Foligno for 1st, 3rd for Rittich, 5th for Hutton, Hallander and 7th for no one = good

Who's saying it was good?

I'm glad they went all in this year and used a huge amount of draft capitol but I'm not pleased with the ROI with Foligno.

 

[pucksakes666]

So because he didn’t get a 6th or 7th rounder the franchise is doomed now?

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

1. You're talking about a 6th round pick.
2. Cap space has a cost.
3. It's not even free agency yet. We don't even know what will happen.

There's nothing wrong with Dubas' management of assets.

Yes, trading a first round draft pick for an injured rental player in Foligno is an example of competent asset management. And the result? Another first round exit.

 

[BertCorbeau]

It’s the big complaint I have is we always let ufa walk for free

That’s the cost of trying to contend in the playoffs

 

[Dough72]

Dubas has traded away more draft picks than any gm we have ever had. And has probably overpaid more players than any gm we have ever ever had. I think he will go down as the worst gm in Leafs history.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yes, trading a first round draft pick for an injured rental player in Foligno is an example of competent asset management.

Foligno got injured after the trade, and regardless of your feelings on Foligno as a player, trading draft picks for rental players is not remotely unusual for a team in our position. We've stocked our pipeline quite well, and a late 1st in a weak draft made weaker by pandemic impacts is nothing to lose sleep over.

 

[ryno23]

Kucherov and Point have been awesome in the playoffs so there's zero reason for TB to move them. The same can't be said for our stars so this is a really, really bad comparison. Do you really think anyone would be talking about moving our stars had they had the kind of playoffs that the TB stars had?

I agree it's too early to give up on Matthews but the fact that you say "usual scared playoffs" about Marner says it all. I say move him right now because one more shitty playoff performance and his resale value will take a huge hit.

Like the other poster said TB also benefited from cap circumvention to add $13 million worth of players to their roster and that was their depth.

You take that cap stuff out and they lose the 3rd line who was arguably their best line and you lose depth on D forcing Hedman and McD to play higher minutes. Things might have looked different with out Gourde, Coleman, Godrow, Savard and the likes. Even if Kuch had a bad playoff they had depth to pick up the slack.

This year TB won't have that quality depth so we will see if the talk of moving a Kuch to balance out that lineup.

SO in fact it's not a bad comparison as there were many factors going into their starts being able to play well. They had a supporting cast that was fed by being $13M over the cap. I am sure Dubas could have assembled a good supporting cast for Marner and Matthews with $13M over the cap.

Point being as I said in my earlier post is this is the year Marner is in the cross hairs for his playoff performance. IF he doesn't do it this year he is the one getting sacraficed.

 

[Aus34Matt]

Foligno got injured after the trade, and regardless of your feelings on Foligno as a player, trading draft picks for rental players is not remotely unusual for a team in our position. We've stocked our pipeline quite well, and a late 1st in a weak draft made weaker by pandemic impacts is nothing to lose sleep over.

Should check your facts, Foligno already had lingering injury even before the trade.

So because he didn’t get a 6th or 7th rounder the franchise is doomed now?

No, I think the fans are mostly concerned about his incompetence in terms of negotiating -- either he's poor at it or clubs simply just can't deal with the noob.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Dubas has traded away more draft picks than any gm we have ever had. And has probably overpaid more players than any gm we have ever ever had. I think he will go down as the worst gm in Leafs history.

- 30 selections in 4 drafts .. he's trade and acquired draft picks to maintain some balance, all while trying to upgrade the roster to a contender.

- Dave Nonis and JFJ say hi.

 

[yubbers]

Man this dude literally cant say anything, its unreal.

The guy opens his mouth and people whine.

Had he said the opposite, something like, "we like the looks of our team and how they stack up in our division" people would have crapped all over him saying "What!?!?! The team is nowhere near the level of Bos/TB, hes delusional, we are doomed."

He. Cant. Say. Anything. To. Appease. Everyone

He has no credibility. Kinda how that works.

 

[Aus34Matt]

He has no credibility. Kinda how that works.

That's how he "rolls".

 

[pucksakes666]

Dubas has traded away more draft picks than any gm we have ever had. And has probably overpaid more players than any gm we have ever ever had. I think he will go down as the worst gm in Leafs history.

you probably didn’t watch the early 2000’s every year they gave up a 1 or 2nd most years it was both

 

[DarkKnight]

Foligno got injured after the trade, and regardless of your feelings on Foligno as a player, trading draft picks for rental players is not remotely unusual for a team in our position. We've stocked our pipeline quite well, and a late 1st in a weak draft made weaker by pandemic impacts is nothing to lose sleep over.

That isn’t true according to Dreger and some reports out of Columbus the day prior that he was still injured. Then if you don’t believe that, look at his play when he first got here, did he seem remotely effective to you? He was damaged goods and we made the trade anyway, to me it’s inexcusable. Even if you had the slightest doubt, you don’t make the trade and he was obviously “off” from the moment he landed here.

 

[DarkKnight]

That's how he "rolls".

Oh man.

 

[justloveleafs]

The thing we always take for granted, is how much power the agents have in this whole mix.

Dubas, wants to be popular with agents. Most gm's do.

I saw a Corona event coming ten years, but it was so overdue, it took me by surprise when it came out in March of last year.

Obviously it took Dubas by surprise, because if he had anticipated an event that would freeze the cap, he would hopefully done things much differently.

He probably is too logical at times.

He figured logically, that Edmonton, like most teams, don't have all that much money to waste, yet here they are, not giving Dubs, a second rounder to save considerable money a year.

But back to my agents being powerful point. You cannot treat players like used cars as much as you would like.

Yeah I would love to constantly trade guys, to grab more picks. I would love to, but you would soon be hated by both players, the players assocation and the agents.

Dubas locked up his core, thinking we would get the corresponding increase in cap, he went all in.

It backfired.

He could be on a big hotseat, especially if Shanahan feels that Dubas could get him canned as well, protecting him.

Dubas, drafts well imo. He has talent. But, boy, he is UNDA PRESSURE now lol.

I will say this in closing, if Foligno doesnt pull up lame, Tavares doesn't get tomahawked and Muzzin doesn't go down, it might have been an interesting final between us and Tampa.

Luck and fate. Big factors.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

The fact he admitted he really hasn't talked to Rielly and his agent until recently has me a little scared he'll do the dumb easy thing and bring Rielly back without a new deal.

James Mirtle had said on a podcast recently that when he asked him (Dubas) about Reilly's last year and his pending UFA coming up...Dubas said that he is not going to allow it to be a limbo year and a distraction. Either he signs a new deal this summer or he is gone. The fact that a marginally better D-man like Seth Jones is signing for 9.5m scares the hell out of me. I was hoping Reilly would re-sign for around 6.5 over 7 or 8....now it looks like it might be in the high 7's if not 8's. I like Mo (Playoff Mo) but I would rather pay a bit more and get Dougie while getting some serious assets back if I am being honest.