Kyle Dubas - - Horrible Asset Mismanagement

[rojac]

WTAF.

It’s simply a speculation as how the negotiation may have went.

Does it not make more sense that Edmonton pulled their offer than Toronto actively deciding they’d take nothing?

Now, if that’s the case, Dubas likely tried to negotiate past a point where Edmonton was no longer interested in making a deal to save a $400K cap hit and paying Hyman for an extra year. I simply asked the poster if he had any suggestions for Dubas on how to identify the point where a person you’re negotiating with is going to walk away.

The only way Dubas could have guaranteed getting something for Hyman was to take Edmonton’s original offer. Once he started negotiating, there was the chance that Holland might decide to pull his offer and simply sign Hyman for 7 years. If Edmonton was willing to do the 7 year deal, there was no reason to give Toronto anything.

What was so hard to understand?

 

[All Mod Cons]

It’s simply a speculation as how the negotiation may have went.

Does it not make more sense that Edmonton pulled their offer than Toronto actively deciding they’d take nothing?

Now, if that’s the case, Dubas likely tried to negotiate past a point where Edmonton was no longer interested in making a deal to save a $400K cap hit and paying Hyman for an extra year. I simply asked the poster if he had any suggestions for Dubas on how to identify the point where a person you’re negotiating with is going to walk away.

The only way Dubas could have guaranteed getting something for Hyman was to take Edmonton’s original offer. Once he started negotiating, there was the chance that Holland might decide to pull his offer and simply sign Hyman for 7 years. If Edmonton was willing to do the 7 year deal, there was no reason to give Toronto anything.

What was so hard to understand?

Not really. Because, to my knowledge, our GM has never worried about players walking for nothing.

Nothing in his history suggests your scenario played out that way.

 

[uncleben]

Why did our GM allow Hyman to talk to another team without a clear compensation package pre arranged and agreed upon?

That I couldn't tell you

It's clear teams and players/agents talk anyways, and there certainly is an art to fostering goodwill to other GMs and to agents by saying yes to those sorts of things, but Idk!

 

[Doublerum1975]

No they really wouldn't. I believe that's just a made up scenario. People would complain they didn't re-sign him, but wouldn't complain that, after such a decision was made, two picks were received so we didn't lose him for nothing.

I think this is some notion made up by Dubas fans. I've been reading a lot of made up scenarios over the last two years, basically saying if Dubas did X or Y people would complain. It's just one of dozens of excuses that his loyal supporters have just invented to try to alienate a large portion of the fanbase.

I'm not a dubas fan boy there's things i like what he did things i didn't like I'm just tired of the same people complaining about everything he does no matter what

 

[Doublerum1975]

I think both gms screwed up on the Hyman deal and both walked away losing something Toronto picks Edmonton cap space dummies

 

[PromisedLand]

The team your dealing with is in another division ... Make a deal!

Another conference

 

[harvestglen]

If he would have taken the picks people would be complaining he didn't get enough for helping Edmonton out for the cap and how he screwed up the value for helping a team out on saving cap space

Not me, and not necessarily the same people who dislike the approach on this one. Almost no moves are free of critics, so all you're left with is debating the merits of each decision. This is different from people criticizing a move retroactively because it didn't work out when they would have very well complained about the opposite. There are plenty of moves from Dubas I've supported, and I think the criticism comes from all angles too often, but it doesn't mean this one is above disagreement.

 

[PromisedLand]

I think Dubas deserves some criticism for not getting anything back because it fits with a pattern of not being careful enough with assets. He really doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. But in and of itself it's kind of a meh, very marginal decision for the Leafs to not get the extra low round picks and probably not worth the passionate chatter from either side.

with the cap distribution the way it is you need as many darts as possible to hopefully hit the bullseye

here are the picks that made it to the NHL that were 6th or 7th rounders (just top of my head)

Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Connor Brown, Johnnson, Garland, Mark Stone, Palat, Dzingel, Josh Manson, DeMelo, Kubalik, Labanc, Kase, Jesper Bratt, Anders Lee

not getting something was absolutely terrible. we gotta take the chance at the draft as much as we can; especially when the pick(s) could have been had for an asset that was gonna walk for free anyway

 

[harvestglen]

not getting something was absolutely terrible. we gotta take the chance at the draft as much as we can; especially when the pick(s) could have been had for an asset that was gonna walk for free anyway

Even just as a trading asset a couple low picks can help matters.

 

[colchar]

If dubas trades willy I would go full Liam Neeson on his behind Taken style (first one only, others sucked lol)

He won't trade Willy because he stupidly said when he signed that he would never be traded so long as Spreadsheet was there.

When I said he wouldn't trade him, I was referring to Marner.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

This thread is over. The Dubas legacy continues nonetheless

 

[DANTHEMAN1967]

Fixed it for you. And yes, I really think he's going to go down as a GM that was even worse then JFJ. I really do.

Tuukka Rask. I really don't.

 

[bolobow]

Just a few thoughts:
1) 7 vs 8 years. A 400k/year cap savings for 7 years (2.8M) is balanced out by paying a 37 year old, likely below replacement level, Hyman $5.1M in the 8th year. Is there really a net benefit?
2) That said, assuming the 8 year deal is better, then denying Edmonton this helps all the 30 other NHL teams by the same logic. However the highest benefit goes to their Pacific division opponents, then Central division and the lowest benefit to Eastern conference teams (i.e. Toronto).
3) However, if Toronto agrees to the sign and trade, then Edmonton arguably becomes stronger against the entire NHL, but that mostly affects Pacific division opponents, less so Central and barely affects Eastern conference teams.
4) With the sign and trade, in addition to being an Eastern conference team that is affected the least by Edmonton's benefit, Toronto will also gain a 5th and 7th round pick giving them a material advantage relative to the 30 other teams in the league. Draft picks are trade currency that mature into lottery tickets.

In trying to extract a "fair" price, Dubas was tunnel visioning on Edmonton's benefit and ignoring the fact that there are 30 other teams in the NHL to compete against, with half of those (Eastern conference) who's relative strength have a much higher impact on the Toronto Maple Leafs' future success. Or in colloquial terms, Dubas simply couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Even without the picks, by virtue of game theory, Toronto would have been in a better position than half the league by helping Edmonton with the sign and trade. In forgoing the two drafts picks, they also missed a free opportunity to improve their relative position against the entire league. These opportunities should not be squandered and that's why it is common to accept any compensation for a departing UFA (and it's unfathomable why the concept of fairness even entered the equation). One wonders what caused Dubas to act so stubborn and irrationally.

 

[mikeyz]

Tuukka Rask. I really don't.

Okay now do Dubas.

 

[Donnie740]

The sad truth is that there are more than a couple of people that do agree with this madness.

Yes, like the ones who were pleading with the moderators to close this thread shortly after I posted it.

When that didn’t work, they resorted to firing off “trolling” reports.

Almost have to wonder if there’s a few burner accounts out there.

 

[rumman]

Imagine having to convince yourself that NOTHING is greater than SOMETHING.

And not just that but then having to go on the internet and trying to convince other people of that, too.

Amazing

I’m betting it looked better on his spreadsheet that it did in real life, Dubas thinks he’s soooooo smart, boy did he show Holland…….

 

[rumman]

just when you think Dubie's performance couldn't go any worse he manages to drive it lower

nothing wrong with holding out for more but at the end of the day you take the best offer and move on , coming out of this with nothing is just pathetic

 

[rumman]

If he would have taken the picks people would be complaining he didn't get enough for helping Edmonton out for the cap and how he screwed up the value for helping a team out on saving cap space

As a GM, wouldn’t it be better being criticized for assets acquired than criticized for passing on said assets? Asking for a friend………

 

[rumman]

You can keep repeating this until you're blue in the face.

Kyle ended up with nothing and Edmonton got our player.

Kyle didn't "step up" and settle in at a price that benefitted the organization.

His selfishness cost the Leafs at least two assets that we know of.

I think he suffering from Napoleon complex?

 

[rumman]

I’m sure Holland will remember this little incident and will repay “ the favour” if the opportunity arises.

It’s always better to have friends out there than to breed enemies.

I’d say this goes double for the rest of the league too. It’s a small group of mostly “old boys.” I’d imagine they’re not happy with boy wonder for consistently drive player salaries up either.

 

[NJG]

There are possibly several including this one depending on whether universal wavefunction is objectively real, and that there is no wavefunction collapse. Clearly in the one we are currently in though . We lost a free agent. Other teams lost free agents, some of them top players. Only Goodrow returned something and that was for exclusive rights. We could have got something back, but Holland didn't step up and pay the price.

Well maybe he shouldn't of waited up until the last minute to try and trade him... When GM's knew he was basically at a disadvantage and he was going to free agency regardless of a trade. You knew from two years ago once he became a free agent you couldn't re-sign him and what he would want and what he'd get in free agency, you could of pulled the trigger a long time ago. Yeah it would of sucked losing him, but at least we would of got something for it.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Well maybe he shouldn't of waited up until the last minute to try and trade him... You knew from two years ago once he became a free agent you couldn't re-sign him and what he would want and what he'd get in free agency, you could of pulled the trigger a long time ago. Yeah it would of sucked losing him, but at least we would of got something for it.

That is the least. What is more is that maybe we didn't get some low pick, but we didn't volunteer to help another team's cap situation in exchange for lower round picks.

 

[NJG]

That is the least. What is more is that maybe we didn't get some low pick, but we didn't volunteer to help another team's cap situation in exchange for lower round picks.

The point is he should of been traded last year... because even last year you knew you couldn't re-sign him.

 

[Leaf Fans]

The point is he should of been traded last year... because even last year you knew you couldn't re-sign him.

We could have resigned him.

 

[NJG]

We could have resigned him.

Clearly not or else we would have.