Kyle Dubas discussion

[Buds17]

If it was Davidson himself or tightly within his circle that leaked the deal that’s also a pretty big party foul imo

I'd agree. Chicago also ended up moving both of their players from that deal in different trades afterwards while the same can't be said for Toronto.

 

[The Masters]

Joe Sakic, everyone’s favourite executive these days tried handing Kyle the keys to the Denver castle before being denied and keeping the job himself.
Kyle wouldn’t be unemployed for long, and neither would the coach for that matter.

yuuup. nhl gm's for the most part are pretty lousy

 

[Nylanderthal]

I'd agree. Chicago also ended up moving both of their players from that deal while the same can't at all be said for Toronto.

I imagine the deal was at such an early stage that the only parties involved would’ve been the men and women in those teams war rooms (gm and their assistants, maybe head scout and coach) so for the details to of come out leaked as such suggests a pretty big hole in Chicago.
I’d definitely think twice before talking to them about deals in the future unless said holes are plugged.
Best thing sweet Lou ever taught Kyle was cone of silence. Worst was suggesting that if you have time to use it.

 

[The Podium]

Analogous to staying at your current job even though you hate it but it has security. At some point, you want more than just making what you currently do and that requires taking a chance.

Or, it is analogous to staying at a job because you see the potential for growth…

 

[BertCorbeau]

Joe Sakic, everyone’s favourite executive these days tried handing Kyle the keys to the Denver castle before being denied and keeping the job himself.
Kyle wouldn’t be unemployed for long, and neither would the coach for that matter.

There's a fun case study. Everyone is in love with the team Sakic built right now in Colorado, but he has been GM for over 7 years there.

He took over after the Av's won their division and bowed out of the first round, having a core of Duchene, Landy, ROR, Mackinnon, Statsny & Barrie. With Varly in net.

They subsequently missed the playoffs the next 3 seasons finishing last, or near last, in the division. Can you imagine the outrage here over that? But he learned stuck with a plan, drafted key pieces like Rantanen, Makar (after a brilliant trade), and has the team in contender status. Yet they have not been past the second round under Sakic's reign.

So maybe there needs to be some long-term planning in mind and that GM's can learn.

I'm not sure firing him is the right answer, because I do believe the Leafs could do a lot worse for a GM.

 

[Nylanderthal]

There's a fun case study. Everyone is in love with the team Sakic built right now in Colorado, but he has been GM for over 7 years there.

He took over after the Av's won their division and bowed out of the first round, having a core of Duchene, Landy, ROR, Mackinnon, Statsny & Barrie. With Varly in net.

They subsequently missed the playoffs the next 3 seasons finishing last, or near last, in the division. Can you imagine the outrage here over that? But he learned stuck with a plan, drafted key pieces like Rantanen, Makar (after a brilliant trade), and has the team in contender status. Yet they have not been past the second round under Sakic's reign.

So maybe there needs to be some long-term planning in mind and that GM's can learn.

I'm not sure firing him is the right answer, because I do believe the Leafs could do a lot worse for a GM.

This has long been my position, not to mention we’re not talking about a 50-55 year old man here, this a young man with a long runway. I’d hate to throw away potentially 20+ years of measured and quality stewardship over being cheesed they lost to teams that went on runs to the cup finals after beating them (two of kyles three playoff losses came to the cup finalist)
He’s shown an ability to learn from mistakes and adapt. I’d bet on that continuing to be the case.

 

[All Mod Cons]

I think many of you that are calling for Dubas to be fired would be very disappointed by whomever his replacement ends up being

There are over 7 billion people in the world. We have no idea who the replacement would be. Never be scared of change. That's how dictatorships happen.

 

[The Podium]

There are over 7 billion people in the world. We have no idea who the replacement would be. Never be scared of change. That's how dictatorships happen.

It’s not fear, it’s belief in leadership.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Dubas is a guy if he gets fired in Toronto (which I doubt happens) he will go somewhere else and win multiple cups

So do we just stick with him until he retires due to the fact he's guaranteed to win cups everywhere else he goes?

 

[All Mod Cons]

It’s not fear, it’s belief in leadership.

Those seems like words to strike fear into people. We can't move away from this guy because the next guy (whom we have less than 0% idea it will be) will be worse.

Fear will not stop fans wanting the best for this organization.

 

[The Podium]

Those seems like words to strike fear into people. We can't move away from this guy because the next guy (whom we have less than 0% idea it will be) will be worse.

Fear will not stop fans wanting the best for this organization.

Fear of what? Obviously the team has been stagnant, so fear of?

I look at what he has done in his time here, and his out of the box thinking, not to mention his potential to be a long term solution at the GM position and he’s the guy I want at the helm.

I see potential beyond this year, or the 2 years he’s been here prior. I can see what he can make this team in 5-10 years. Sorry I don’t have the foresight of a goldfish.

 

[BertCorbeau]

So do we just stick with him until he retires due to the fact he's guaranteed to win cups everywhere else he goes?

I would stick with him as long as he keeping adjusting his approach and learning from his missteps. Also he has to show the ability to make the hard decisions when it comes to the core, should they continue to fail.

 

[PromisedLand]

Essentially said that the leaks regarding the Flurey trade negotiations game from the Hawks and then mentioned Davidson by name as to whom the press should talk to about that.

Rookie mistaks still. Dubas should have just denied that he was looking for a deal like that to begin with

 

[Craig Button]

The only person I would want to see replace Dubas is Choclair

 

[All Mod Cons]

Fear of what? Obviously the team has been stagnant, so fear of?

I look at what he has done in his time here, and his out of the box thinking, not to mention his potential to be a long term solution at the GM position and he’s the guy I want at the helm.

I see potential beyond this year, or the 2 years he’s been here prior. I can see what he can make this team in 5-10 years. Sorry I don’t have the foresight of a goldfish.

What out of box thinking has he done? Forget his age, his glasses and his cardigans and let's just look at the results of this GM.

Let's call him Dave Smith.

What has he actually achieved here that gives some such confidence in the guy that we're guaranteed the next GM (which there will be one, one day) will be worse.

He took over a team that finished tied for sixth in the NHL and hadn't had playoff success. As of now, he is residing over a team that sits 8th in the NHL without playoff success. All the while, he has spent a lot of draft capital (which is a GMs prerogative) and millions of dollars moving guys down/on LTIR (early on).

What has improved during this time? Lots of coaches have been and gone. Lots of Free Agents (especially European) have been and gone in a hot second.

To think there's no one else out there that can match (or God forbid exceed) these results is crazy.

If we have any amount of playoff success, even a single playoff round win, I'm all for giving him longer.

If we're out in the 1st round again, what are we actually achieving here?

 

[rocketman588]

Fear of what? Obviously the team has been stagnant, so fear of?

I look at what he has done in his time here, and his out of the box thinking, not to mention his potential to be a long term solution at the GM position and he’s the guy I want at the helm.

I see potential beyond this year, or the 2 years he’s been here prior. I can see what he can make this team in 5-10 years. Sorry I don’t have the foresight of a goldfish.

Paying starts a dick load of money and signing dudes from his junior team isn't really out of the box thinking

Remember when he thought back up goalie wins were due to luck so he waived mcbackup

 

[PromisedLand]

There's a fun case study. Everyone is in love with the team Sakic built right now in Colorado, but he has been GM for over 7 years there.

He took over after the Av's won their division and bowed out of the first round, having a core of Duchene, Landy, ROR, Mackinnon, Statsny & Barrie. With Varly in net.

They subsequently missed the playoffs the next 3 seasons finishing last, or near last, in the division. Can you imagine the outrage here over that? But he learned stuck with a plan, drafted key pieces like Rantanen, Makar (after a brilliant trade), and has the team in contender status. Yet they have not been past the second round under Sakic's reign.

So maybe there needs to be some long-term planning in mind and that GM's can learn.

I'm not sure firing him is the right answer, because I do believe the Leafs could do a lot worse for a GM.

Not apples to apples comparison. Sakic dealt Duchene, ROR, Statsny, Barrie so called "core" Leafs have not. Mack wasn't as hot in his earlier days as he is now either. Also, Sakic didn't do dumb shit like trade Kadri after suspension; and now Kadri is having a career year for the Avs. Yes Kadri will walk as a UFA.

Also, Avs drafted Makar, Girrardi to shore up defense; Leafs' picks even under Dubas have been underwhelming

 

[PromisedLand]

There are over 7 billion people in the world. We have no idea who the replacement would be. Never be scared of change. That's how dictatorships happen.

Precisely!

 

[Ciao]

I'm starting to see Kyle as an actuary and in the most pejorative sense. The question about how far he got down the road with Fleury was quite revealing. He was livid that Kyle Davidson released that information. Why? Because, it blows his cover with his guys and makes him look bad that he didn't get it done. It's a double whammy in the PR arena. One, now he has to try and sell his goalies on him not really wanting to bring anyone else in when they already know that isn't true. Two, he has to explain why he didn't get him when another team did. He swung and missed and didn't want to talk about the swing at all. I though it was a bad look for him to say what he said of Kyle Davidson. No reason to bring that up other than to deflect having to answer the question by directing angst toward him. Reminds of a guy who's trying hard to sell life insurance policies knowing he's never going to pay out.

When you hear him say the word "belief" you can translate that as...if they're anywhere in this organization, he believes in them, so that's a pretty empty and generic use of "belief". If he believes in this group, it rings hollow. Do you believe in Michael Hutchinson? He does. That sure takes the shine off hearing him believing in anything else.

Watching his presser he looked like a defeated man. He knows the other teams did things and he left gaping holes especially in goal. When you hear someone speak you either get the sense they really believe what they're saying, or they just want you to believe they believe what they're saying. This time I got a strong sense he doesn't believe much of what he was saying in those 20 minutes in front of the media.

I take solace in the fact he "believes" in Knies and Abruzzese but when I think about how he believes in everything and anything else, I become uncomfortable.

The one thing I do like is no 1st went out the door, nor any legit prospect. Colin Blackwell is my kind of player, stature notwithstanding. Love, love, love players like him. He was with Gourde in Seattle and got a close up look on how to play psychotic hockey. Gourde was one of my favorites in the league in Tampa. A machine on the ice. A lot of Leafs losses are hard to take because often they're uninspired losses. Blackwell won't play that way and hopefully his energy is catchy. One slug can poison a team and one go getter can inspire it. I'm more excited about him than Giordano.

Soon, "I believe in this group." may conjure echoes of "Keep grindin'" and "Steady on the rudder".

Is this Kyle's last stand? Maybe. Just ask him.

TLDNR.

If you can't write your argument on the back of a business card then it isn't much of an argument.

Here's mine: Kyle Dubas is on the rise, and he will bring the Leafs with him.

 

[Stephen]

If it was Davidson himself or tightly within his circle that leaked the deal that’s also a pretty big party foul imo

Meh, if there's no trust or comfort level with that organization because they leak things, it makes sense to walk away.

But things are leaked all the time and according to Allan Walsh the agents and media are used as a communication conduit. So take it or leave it.

 

[The Podium]

What out of box thinking has he done? Forget his age, his glasses and his cardigans and let's just look at the results of this GM.

Let's call him Dave Smith.

What has he actually achieved here that gives some such confidence in the guy that we're guaranteed the next GM (which there will be one, one day) will be worse.

He took over a team that finished tied for sixth in the NHL and hadn't had playoff success. As of now, he is residing over a team that sits 8th in the NHL without playoff success. All the while, he has spent a lot of draft capital (which is a GMs prerogative) and millions of dollars moving guys down/on LTIR (early on).

What has improved during this time? Lots of coaches have been and gone. Lots of Free Agents (especially European) have been and gone in a hot second.

To think there's no one else out there that can match (or God forbid exceed) these results is crazy.

If we have any amount of playoff success, even a single playoff round win, I'm all for giving him longer.

If we're out in the 1st round again, what are we wctually achieving here?

You do realize it takes longer than 3 years to build your vision? Especially when those 3 years included dismantling some of the problems created by the previous regimes + 2 Covid shortened seasons and a 3 year stagnant cap?

Everyone looks at the lack of progress as a problem, but to remain competitive when battling those obstacles is impressive.

What I see is a GM that can adapt. The cap is flat? Go unearth Bunting, Kampf and Kase for next to nothing. Don’t have a 1st round pick? Draft Knies, Niemela, Abruzzese, etc in the later rounds. Don’t have cap space? Make some in every convoluted way possible. On top of that he made the Leafs a premiere UFA destination by his goodwill gestures and ability to make sure everyone is “taken care of”.

Has he made mistakes? Some yes, but to @BertCorbeau ’s point he has done a good job of recognizing and correcting them as soon as he can.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Paying starts a dick load of money and signing dudes from his junior team isn't really out of the box thinking

Remember when he thought back up goalie wins were due to luck so he waived mcbackup

Ehhhhh choosing the mid twenties AHL goalie of the year to be the back up over the 36 year old vet was always the move to make. Not every good bet pans out just like not every risk busts. He learned from that and obtained a back up that was so good he stole the starters job

 

[Stephen]

I'm not sure firing him is the right answer, because I do believe the Leafs could do a lot worse for a GM.

I'm not the biggest Dubas guy out there, but I think their most obvious path to success is actually more of an organizational status quo approach, because the big picture isn't 2020, 2021 or 2022. It's more like 2016-2032 or something like that.

Once they successfully navigate the Matthews and Marner re-signings in a few years, let some of the big pre-pandemic flat cap salaries fall by the way side, continue a responsible stewardship of the prospect pool, I think that will unlock the next phase of the window of contention, to say nothing of the possibility that they win in 2022, 2023 or 2024. And the key is to just hang around long enough for those percentage to play out, for more building and evolution to happen. We have some special pieces, but it takes time to find the right combination of supporting cast.

Just look at the time horizons of other contenders. Tampa's foundations were originally laid back in 2008 and 2009. Boston's Bergeron/Marchand core was largely drafted and assembled between 2003 and 2006. Even Florida's Huberdeau, Barkov, Ekblad predates the Matthews era.

 

[Ports]

Before Dubas came on, Hayes & Noodles were talking lighthearted talk about how, when you come and play for your hometown team, all of a sudden you have 3rd uncles and these nobodies in your family coming out of the woodwork asking you for stuff. They then segued into the Dubas interview and asked, half-jokingly, about Giordano being asked about getting a signed Matthews stick.

That's where Dubas said that if it was a younger player they acquired, he may have felt the need to perhaps warn them of what's to come due to it being a mid-season move (he made a point to say that if it was an off-season acquisition, you normally have the summer to deal with the family demands and ramp things up closer to the start of the season).

Got it. I misunderstood. I thought he was talking about warning younger players about the pressures of playing for the Leafs.

 

[Ports]

While I agree I also think Shanny will give him one more year to make amends via HUGE trade (Marner or Nylander) for cheaper and possibly even younger assets.

That's assuming Shanny has any say by that point of course, because if they're out again in the 1st round without some nice comfy $$$$$ playoff revenue ..... I can guarantee there will be members of the MLSE board calling for his head on a platter

As they should.