Tribute Kyle Dubas discussion

[Mess]

Food for thought.

The previous Leafs GM that Dubas replaced has won 8 playoff rounds gone to the final 4 twice in 2020 & 2021, and been named Exec of the year twice during these past 4 seasons.

For Dubas to match that same # of playoff round success of 8, he would have to win back to back Stanley Cups and that would only tie him. (and as long as the former GM didn't win another round in the next upcoming 2 years himself).

Former Leafs coach Mike Babcock (fired for failing to get the Leafs past round #1) & who has been sitting on couch the past 4 years has as many playoff round wins as Dubas does under his new handpicked coach Keefe. Zero.

That just demonstrates how painfully little Dubas has achieved as GM .. Nothing really !!!

I like the position the Leafs board of directors appears to have put the Leafs GM & coach management staff in, and its either put up this year and get out of the way.

Its a WIN WIN for Leaf Nation !!

 

[Dekes For Days]

Interestingly, a team has gotten or paced for 110+ points in 3 or more consecutive seasons only 3 times in the cap era.

2005-2009 Detroit
2020-2023 Carolina
2020-2023 Toronto

 

[Blanche Blanche]

If we lose, I’d still be ok with Dubas staying, since he has grown as a GM… but he would have to fire Keefe and shake up the core.

Never thought I’d say this but yes.

He has proven to be a decent to good GM.

It’s the core 4 that needs proving and especially

KEEFe

 

[shaner8989]

Dubas has been great. Keefe and the cores job are on the line though

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

The Dubas inherited 2017-18 Leafs [Backstopped by Freddy Andersen/McElhinney] finished with 49 wins and 105 points & finished 6th overall and faced Boston in round #1 of the playoffs and lost in game #7

vs.

The 2021-22 Leafs [Backstopped by Campbell/Mrazek] finished with 54 wins & 115 points & finished 4th overall and faced TB with home ice in round #1 of the playoffs and lost in game #7.
while
The 2022-23 Leafs [Backstopped by Samsonov/Murray] finished with 50 wins 111 points and finished 4th overall and will face TB with home ice in round #1 of the playoffs.

The 3 Amigo's which lead this team (Matthews, Marner & Nylander) all inherited by Dubas, were only teenagers in 2017-18 and even with their maturation into players now in their prime the team results don't change for the GM.

Unless the Leafs playoff results this year are different with a team statistically that wasn't even as strong as last years, and is only marginally better [+1 win & +6 points] then the inherited one 5 years ago that appears to be stuck in quicksand going nowhere, then why would you extend GM Dubas?

Marner was drafted with Dubas in the GM chair.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Food for thought.

The previous Leafs GM that Dubas replaced has won 8 playoff rounds gone to the final 4 twice in 2020 & 2021, and been named Exec of the year twice during these past 4 seasons.

For Dubas to match that same # of playoff round success of 8, he would have to win back to back Stanley Cups and that would only tie him. (and as long as the former GM didn't win another round in the next upcoming 2 years himself).

Former Leafs coach Mike Babcock (fired for failing to get the Leafs past round #1) & who has been sitting on couch the past 4 years has as many playoff round wins as Dubas does under his new handpicked coach Keefe. Zero.

That just demonstrates how painfully little Dubas has achieved as GM .. Nothing really !!!

I like the position the Leafs board of directors appears to have put the Leafs GM & coach management staff in, and its either put up this year and get out of the way.

Its a WIN WIN for Leaf Nation !!

Yes Dubas needs to win 6 playoff rounds in the next like 12 years to meet the bar set by Lou. That and find a way to have a barren pipeline and be continuously crossing his fingers to the last game of the season to hope to qualify in a regular season despite Vezina level goaltending.

 

[keonsbitterness]

This is so true. We keep hearing about how much better he has made them yet the results stay the same
in fact we have 10 less points then last year

We have 4 less points than last year, not 10.

Both wrong. We have four fewer points.

 

[justashadowof]

Keep in mind the cascade of changes that would happen with Dubas out of the picture. The MLSE front office is chock full of full-on Dubas acolytes. Yes every boss goes on a hiring spree when they take charge but many attempt to utilize and work with former peers in the organization. There wasn't a lot of that in this case. There are a plethora of hires who owe Dubas big time for getting their chance with an NHL gig. A higher than usual percentage of assistant-this, director of that and special assistant-to-whomever would either walk or get canned. I suspect the former because they've all been alerted to their hiring boss being put on notice this year with an expiring contract.

I really wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Dubas walks regardless of the playoff outcome. It isn't impossible that he gets an offer MLSE is unwilling match that includes a presidency and other financial stakes in another organization.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Keep in mind the cascade of changes that would happen with Dubas out of the picture. The MLSE front office is chock full of full-on Dubas acolytes. Yes every boss goes on a hiring spree when they take charge but many attempt to utilize and work with former peers in the organization. There wasn't a lot of that in this case. There are a plethora of hires who owe Dubas big time for getting their chance with an NHL gig. A higher than usual percentage of assistant-this, director of that and special assistant-to-whomever would either walk or get canned. I suspect the former because they've all been alerted to their hiring boss being put on notice this year with an expiring contract.

I really wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Dubas walks regardless of the playoff outcome. It isn't impossible that he gets an offer MLSE is unwilling match that includes a presidency and other financial stakes in another organization.

It’s crazy how fast we’ve gone from “Dubas won’t be a GM again once he’s fired” to “MLSE can’t afford to match Fenway giving Dubas presidency and ownership stakes”.

 

[TMLegend]

He's as good as gone if they go out in round 1.

He might leave anyway regardless of the outcome. He's traded away a lot of futures and may not want to deal with the future ramifications of that. A.K.A, the Alex Anthopoulos specialty.

 

[justashadowof]

It’s crazy how fast we’ve gone from “Dubas won’t be a GM again once he’s fired” to “MLSE can’t afford to match Fenway giving Dubas presidency and ownership stakes”.

Did I say he won't be a GM again? Perhaps I did a long time ago, I don't remember. I definitely didn't say MLSE couldn't afford to match some external offer. It's crazy how fast we went to strawmanning. You may be in a cult of personality when some speculative musings are perceived as some sort of threat.

 

[justashadowof]

He's as good as gone if they go out in round 1.

He might leave anyway regardless of the outcome. He's traded away a lot of futures and may not want to deal with the future ramifications of that. A.K.A, the Alex Anthopoulos specialty.

Dubas definitely did not mortgage the future to take a big run like AA did. The team is still intact. AA's moves were very much all in but that team was not young either. He may have done it regardless of being a lame duck GM or not.

 

[Stephen]

It’s crazy how fast we’ve gone from “Dubas won’t be a GM again once he’s fired” to “MLSE can’t afford to match Fenway giving Dubas presidency and ownership stakes”.

This storyline just sounds like the Toronto media talking to itself. It's like the Masai Ujiri storyline without the championship pedigree.

 

[Apex Predator]

If the Leafs lose in the first round because goaltending struggled that is on Dubas. If they lose because of any other reason that is on Keefe players.

I think they bring him back if they lose in round 1 but at that point you can’t keep running it back.

 

[Sypher04]

Lot of people are quick to point out what Dubas inherited yet ignore that the vast majority of Lou’s 105 point team was also inherited. Nylander, Marner, Hyman, Brown were already in the system. Matthews was a slam dunk, no brainer pick. We’ve received little nothing else from Lou’s drafts prior to this recent run of Joseph Woll.

During Lou’s tenure as GM, these are the players he added via trades, waiver claims and signings:

Mikhail Grabner
Frank Corrado (waiver claim)
Jeremy Morin
Colin Greening
Milan Michalek
Tobias Lindberg
Jared Cowen
Colin Smith
Nick Spaling
Raffi Torres
Alex Stalock
Ben Smith
Connor Carrick
Brooks Laich
Nikita Zaitsev
Frederik Andersen
Kerby Rychel
Matt Martin
Roman Polak (back after trading him)
Jhonas Enroth
Curtis McElhinney (waiver claim)
Alexei Marchenko (waiver claim)
Bryan Boyle
Eric Fehr
Steve Olesky
Calle Rosen
Andreas Borgman
Ron Hainsey
Dominic Moore
Patrick Marleau
Calvin Pickard
Tomas Plekanec
Kyle Baun

This is what you people are clamouring for? Aside from Hainsey and Andersen it’s largely a big pile of nothing

 

[FreeBird]

Marner was drafted with Dubas in the GM chair.

HUNTER drafted MARNER

 

[hockeywiz542]

What's at stake for the Maple Leafs in these playoffs? The future of the franchise

After six straight early postseason exits, the Maple Leafs must win a round this year or big changes could happen.

theathletic.com

This will be Dubas’ fifth postseason running the show. Each of the previous four went the distance, all in losing efforts. The Leafs were favoured twice — against the Blue Jackets and Canadiens. And were slight underdogs twice — against the Bruins and Lightning.

They’re arguably slight favourites over the Lightning this time around. Slight because while the Leafs finished with the superior record, goal differential, and territorial advantage, the Lightning are the Lightning. They’ve made three straight Final appearances (four with this particular core). They’ve gotten it done again and again when it counts. They’ve earned the overwhelming benefit of the doubt, the benefit of the doubt the Leafs lack at the moment.

The Leafs were this close to beating the Lightning last spring. Another losing effort, even if this close yet again, may not be enough to forestall major change. The Leafs got that mulligan after last season, which followed a brutal loss to Montreal in 2021.

If upper management/ownership is serious, it’s Dubas who may not be around in another first-round defeat. It’s also possible he decides to leave for another opportunity. And without Dubas around, with another GM in charge, all bets about the future of the team are off.

Does Auston Matthews want to see what the future looks like under new leadership before he commits to the organization with a contract extension this summer? Does William Nylander, who can also extend his contract? Does a GM not named Kyle Dubas opt against keeping Nylander? Do they take a sledgehammer to Dubas’ top-heavy roster-building approach and decide that one big piece has to go? Does said GM consider moving Morgan Rielly, the longest-serving Leaf who has seven years left and a $7.5 million cap hit on his contract?

Do the Leafs make their team worse in the process?

What becomes of head coach Sheldon Keefe if the Leafs fail to win a round? Keefe was brought in to take the Leafs where Mike Babcock could not. He’s been at the helm of the last three playoff exits.

The Leafs might have a new GM and coach if they can’t get past the Lightning.

We’re talking about major change here, potentially, without a tangible step forward.

Is Brendan Shanahan, team president for almost 10 years now, still overseeing the operation from up top?

Maybe Dubas, a la Alex Anthopolous, decides he doesn’t want to stay if the Leafs fail to advance. Maybe he decides to stay and the organization agrees to keep him, but only under the condition that something substantial changes — a core piece, the coach, something.

 

[ToneDog]

And the Leafs are ahead or just behind these star GMs. So where is the upgrade?

Which of those GMs took over a 105 point team with and 16, 34 and 88 about to break out ?

 

[JKG33]

Lot of people are quick to point out what Dubas inherited yet ignore that the vast majority of Lou’s 105 point team was also inherited. Nylander, Marner, Hyman, Brown were already in the system. Matthews was a slam dunk, no brainer pick. We’ve received little nothing else from Lou’s drafts prior to this recent run of Joseph Woll.

During Lou’s tenure as GM, these are the players he added via trades, waiver claims and signings:

Mikhail Grabner
Frank Corrado (waiver claim)
Jeremy Morin
Colin Greening
Milan Michalek
Tobias Lindberg
Jared Cowen
Colin Smith
Nick Spaling
Raffi Torres
Alex Stalock
Ben Smith
Connor Carrick
Brooks Laich
Nikita Zaitsev
Frederik Andersen
Kerby Rychel
Matt Martin
Roman Polak (back after trading him)
Jhonas Enroth
Curtis McElhinney (waiver claim)
Alexei Marchenko (waiver claim)
Bryan Boyle
Eric Fehr
Steve Olesky
Calle Rosen
Andreas Borgman
Ron Hainsey
Dominic Moore
Patrick Marleau
Calvin Pickard
Tomas Plekanec
Kyle Baun

This is what you people are clamouring for? Aside from Hainsey and Andersen it’s largely a big pile of nothing

I don't want Lou either, but comparing the end result of both teams shows that Dubas has done nothing to improve the team.

Do they look better on paper? Maybe, but the cup isn't won with player ratings like in a video game.

 

[ToneDog]

I don't want Lou either, but comparing the end result of both teams shows that Dubas has done nothing to improve the team.

Do they look better on paper? Maybe, but the cup isn't won with player ratings like in a video game.

At the cost of how many draft picks and with nothing to show for them. Thankfully somebody at ML$EL woke and said, you need to win or no extension.

 

[Sypher04]

I don't want Lou either, but comparing the end result of both teams shows that Dubas has done nothing to improve the team.

Do they look better on paper? Maybe, but the cup isn't won with player ratings like in a video game.

Have not improved by playoff result, sure. I think you’d be hard pressed to prove the Leafs haven’t improved under Dubas though. It’s not all on paper. There are tangible points of growth in the way the team plays. But sure, while the improvements are there, they are moot if we can’t translate them into post season success. That’s what we are all looking for

 

[JKG33]

Have not improved by playoff result, sure. I think you’d be hard pressed to prove the Leafs haven’t improved under Dubas though. It’s not all on paper. There are tangible points of growth in the way the team plays. But sure, while the improvements are there, they are moot if we can’t translate them into success. That’s what we are all looking for

The mark of improvement is winning in the playoffs. Win a round here, make it to round 2 or 3 there. But they've shown nothing. And now we're at the point where the clock is about to strike midnight, and winning only a single round this late into the window is meaningless even if they do manage it.

This is a results oriented buisness. It's quite easy to prove they haven't improved, and that's the problem.

Like I always say (and im sure you remember from the old days), San Jose should be the laughing stock of the league. For how great of a team they supposedly had, they never won the Cup. But at least they managed to win rounds every year. The Leafs can't even do that. They can't even meet the bar set by a team that is so easy to dunk on.

 

[rocketman588]

Dubas definitely did not mortgage the future to take a big run like AA did. The team is still intact. AA's moves were very much all in but that team was not young either. He may have done it regardless of being a lame duck GM or not.

I might be wrong but didn't AA draft the entire current core.

He gave away syndgaard and darnauld but was able to keep most of the big time lower A guys. I don't think many that he gave away panned out

 

[TMLegend]

The mark of improvement is winning in the playoffs. Win a round here, make it to round 2 or 3 there. But they've shown nothing. And now we're at the point where the clock is about to strike midnight, and winning only a single round this late into the window is meaningless even if they do manage it.

This is a results oriented buisness. It's quite easy to prove they haven't improved, and that's the problem.

Like I always say (and im sure you remember from the old days), San Jose should be the laughing stock of the league. For how great of a team they supposedly had, they never won the Cup. But at least they managed to win rounds every year. The Leafs can't even do that. They can't even meet the bar set by a team that is so easy to dunk on.

Growing up with Sharks as my 2nd team, I see a lot of similarities between the two teams. From the star studded forward group to the solid, but not spectacular d-core to the shaky goaltending come playoff time. Hell, even the coaching is similar. Going from the established coach in Wilson to the young up startup in McLellan to switch up the formula.

Bittersweet looking back at it. All the regular season success was great, but having that choker label in the playoffs and never being able to shed it sucked. At the end of the day I think it proved Thornton, Marleau weren't good enough to lead a team to a cup in the early years, and they started having more post-season success after Pavelski and Couture and others established themselves more, although never quite getting over the hump regardless.

It's entirely possible this iteration of the Leafs simply isn't good enough to win the cup, and the leaders we see today may need to in a more of a support role for this team to see post-season success.

 

[Racer88]

We have 4 less points than last year, not 10.

I stand corrected but my point stands. The final results for the season has taken a step back