Kyle Dubas Discussion (continued) the 2021 edition

[Pookie]

Clifford is a much better hockey player than Martin.

why didn’t we use him then?

or resign him? Didn’t he take $500k less than Simmonds?

Martin player PK mins too.

 

[Pookie]

Trotz is not a player. I included all of Martin, Lehner, Varlamov, and Pageau in my post. What are you even talking about?

Trotz is a Lou move. Hired him.

hiring Keefe is a Dubas move.

 

[Dreakmur]

Clifford is a much better hockey player than Martin.

Is he? Both guys score at about the same rate. Both guys are physical and tough. Martin was pretty good defensively, while Clifford wasn’t.

 

[Menzinger]

why didn’t we use him then?

or resign him? Didn’t he take $500k less than Simmonds?

Martin player PK mins too.

Clifford received consistent 4th linen usage in the regular season and post season.

Simmonds is a better player than Clifford or Martin. Not hard to figure out why the Leafs liked him most.

 

[Menzinger]

Is he? Both guys score at about the same rate. Both guys are physical and tough. Martin was pretty good defensively, while Clifford wasn’t.

Clifford is better at shot suppression. And they bring the same level of physicality

 

[Dekes For Days]

Trotz is a Lou move. Hired him.
hiring Keefe is a Dubas move.

It also has nothing to do with my post about players - it's yet another deflection. Do not make false statements about what I post.

 

[Pookie]

Clifford received consistent 4th linen usage in the regular season and post season.

Simmonds is a better player than Clifford or Martin. Not hard to figure out why the Leafs liked him most.

yeah, it’s impossible to want to have 2 gritty guys on your team. Best to just have 1.

 

[Dreakmur]

Clifford is better at shot suppression. And they bring the same level of physicality

Clifford is a better “shot suppressor” because he happens to get sheltered a lot more than Martin.

 

[Menzinger]

yeah, it’s impossible to want to have 2 gritty guys on your team. Best to just have 1.

Not a single person in this thread said anything of the sort Pookie.

 

[Dale Gribble]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, about the only thing I have left to say about Lou's time here is that some tend to forget that Lou didn't have control here in Toronto the way he did in Jersey or even now in Long Island. He didn't hire Hunter, Dubas, Babcock, he inherited the first two, and Shanahan along with Ownership hired Babs. So, in saying that I think it's safe to say that maybe not all of the team's signings, draft picks, and maybe even trades. Maybe it's just excuse, maybe it's not, but I think Lou could've done a better job here if he actually had full control.

Now as for Dubas, I think it's no secret by now that I'm not a fan, aside from some of his trades, I think he is a very poor GM. I like what Shanahan has done in terms of honouring the team's history and all that, but the direction of the team lies on Shanahan's shoulders just as much as Dubas', so if we see another playoff failure, then I'd like to see both gone.

 

[Pookie]

Not a single person in this thread said anything of the sort Pookie.

great. So why did Dubas let Clifford go?

 

[Nylanderthal]

Thornton; Spezza; Simmons won’t be here next season.......who’s going to get on Dubas’ merry go round of cheap forwards to fill out the roster next year?

Who cares right now? Thats literally the point of free agency, and the way she goes in a cap world. Better to know who’s at the top of the line up and fill out around vs backfilling the bottom with pricey vets on long term deals and not know who’s in the top 6/top 4.

 

[Nylanderthal]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, about the only thing I have left to say about Lou's time here is that some tend to forget that Lou didn't have control here in Toronto the way he did in Jersey or even now in Long Island. He didn't hire Hunter, Dubas, Babcock, he inherited the first two, and Shanahan along with Ownership hired Babs. So, in saying that I think it's safe to say that maybe not all of the team's signings, draft picks, and maybe even trades. Maybe it's just excuse, maybe it's not, but I think Lou could've done a better job here if he actually had full control.

Now as for Dubas, I think it's no secret by now that I'm not a fan, aside from some of his trades, I think he is a very poor GM. I like what Shanahan has done in terms of honouring the team's history and all that, but the direction of the team lies on Shanahan's shoulders just as much as Dubas', so if we see another playoff failure, then I'd like to see both gone.

Seeing as it’s too soon to make a decision on his drafting but with early indications looking very solid the only other function a GM completes is signing, so just come out and say you don’t like the big 4 contracts. Unless you don’t like Brodie or the depth they’ve amassed for the line up.

 

[Dreakmur]

great. So why did Dubas let Clifford go?

He wanted more money than Dubas thought he should get. Or Dubas didn’t think he was good enough to re sign at any price. Or Clifford didn’t want to come back.

 

[BertCorbeau]

great. So why did Dubas let Clifford go?

IIRC Clifford out-priced himself. Was seeking like a 3 year deal for over $2 AAV I think

 

[Dreakmur]

Who cares right now? Thats literally the point of free agency, and the way she goes in a cap world. Better to know who’s at the top of the line up and fill out around vs backfilling the bottom with pricey vets on long term deals and not know who’s in the top 6/top 4.

Yeah, I think your better off to lock in the core and fill in around the edges. It’s better to draft and develop your cheap guys, but cheap UFAs can work too.

Guys like Kapanen and Johnsson going for picks and prospects is how I would have done it.... though I would have done it a year earlier instead of signing them an RFAs.

The biggest question for this team, did we commit to the right core? I think it’s too early to answer that.

 

[Dale Gribble]

Seeing as it’s too soon to make a decision on his drafting but with early indications looking very solid the only other function a GM completes is signing, so just come out and say you don’t like the big 4 contracts. Unless you don’t like Brodie or the depth they’ve amassed for the line up.

Drafting more of the same does nothing for this team. Yeah, skilled small soft players look great in junior and during the regular season, but all one has to do is look at teams that do well in the playoffs, they don't look like how the Leafs are built to me, but to each their own I guess.

I've made it no secret that I don't like the big 4 signings, the worst IMO being the Tavares signing, we didn't need him and all his contract did was inflate Marner and Matthews "self worth". I have nothing against the Brodie signing, but the Leafs depth is a joke.

 

[Dale Gribble]

IIRC Clifford out-priced himself. Was seeking like a 3 year deal for over $2 AAV I think

I mean, Clifford probably looked at all the contracts Dubas has handed out (even Engvall's contract when you think about it), and he thought Dubas would be dumb enough to give it to him. I highly doubt he's the only player in the NHL that thought he could squeeze more out of Wonder Boy.

 

[LeafsNation75]

why didn’t we use him then?

or resign him? Didn’t he take $500k less than Simmonds?

Martin player PK mins too.

If Dubas re-signed Clifford than the Leafs would be forced to give Los Angeles their 2021 2nd round pick.

 

[Menzinger]

great. So why did Dubas let Clifford go?

Better players were availible and there was the potential loss of a 2nd due tobthe trade stipulation.

Thr Martin thing is odd to fixate on considering it was Babcock was the one who made him a healthy scratch while Lou was still GM of the team

 

[LeafsNation75]

Better players were availible and there was the potential loss of a 2nd due tobthe trade stipulation.

Thr Martin thing is odd to fixate on considering it was Babcock was the one who made him a healthy scratch while Lou was still GM of the team

Never mind the fact Dubas traded him back to the Islanders thinking there was a chance Babcock might do that again going into the 2018-19 Season.

 

[Crazy Monkey]

IIRC Clifford out-priced himself. Was seeking like a 3 year deal for over $2 AAV I think

There was also a draft pick involved which Im sure played a role

 

[jaric1862]

Clifford is tougher than Simmonds but he really didn't have a defined role on this team. At least with Simmonds he can contribute on the PP as a net front guy.

 

[Dragao6]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, about the only thing I have left to say about Lou's time here is that some tend to forget that Lou didn't have control here in Toronto the way he did in Jersey or even now in Long Island. He didn't hire Hunter, Dubas, Babcock, he inherited the first two, and Shanahan along with Ownership hired Babs. So, in saying that I think it's safe to say that maybe not all of the team's signings, draft picks, and maybe even trades. Maybe it's just excuse, maybe it's not, but I think Lou could've done a better job here if he actually had full control.

Now as for Dubas, I think it's no secret by now that I'm not a fan, aside from some of his trades, I think he is a very poor GM. I like what Shanahan has done in terms of honouring the team's history and all that, but the direction of the team lies on Shanahan's shoulders just as much as Dubas', so if we see another playoff failure, then I'd like to see both gone.

kinda what I wanted to ask
I like dubas but I don’t think his vision of a nhl team is working, negotiation tactics also weak but any sense that if this year is a failure then he’s is out?
If so does shanahan not follow also?
And what is a failure for this team because looking at this division making the playoffs doesn’t seem to be too difficult this year

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yeah, I think your better off to lock in the core and fill in around the edges. It’s better to draft and develop your cheap guys, but cheap UFAs can work too.

Guys like Kapanen and Johnsson going for picks and prospects is how I would have done it.... though I would have done it a year earlier instead of signing them an RFAs.

The biggest question for this team, did we commit to the right core? I think it’s too early to answer that.

Agree with everything. As far as the core goes, it's the only core we got so just have to hope it works. If we disappoint again in the playoffs though it'll be hard IMHO to argue that nothing needs to change, the grace period is on it's last season as far as I'm concerned.

kinda what I wanted to ask
I like dubas but I don’t think his vision of a nhl team is working, negotiation tactics also weak but any sense that if this year is a failure then he’s is out?
If so does shanahan not follow also?
And what is a failure for this team because looking at this division making the playoffs doesn’t seem to be too difficult this year

Good question. My first thought is that barring injuries, anything short of making the final 4 would be a disappointment, if not outright failure. We're the favourites, the path is easier than it's been with this core by a good margin so time to start winning no?