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Kyle Dubas Discussion (continued) the 2021 edition

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Menzinger said:
Your earlier post implied Dubas inherited a strong prospect pool (taking issue with another posters suggestion that the cupboards were "bare").

If you'd like to focus on tangible things like like results, you could look at the amount of Leafs prospects (or lack there of) who have graduated from those draft classes outside ofn he top 5 selectiona into impact NHLers. So far we have a #5 D man, and that's it.

Edit:typo
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That's almost like the logic from some Leafs fans who don't like Dubas mentioned how Lamoriello was able to have success in the regular season like when the Leafs went 49-26-7 with 105 points during the 2017-18 season. However they never mention how Lamoriello was lucky that Matthews, Marner, and Nylander were able to play on their ELC.
 
Menzinger said:
Almost as if a single game is meaningless to evaluating a prospects track record....
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well he became an elite prospect by some because he had a couple of very good games against weak competition so by that logic why shouldn't we use the game against a good team to evaluate him ?
 
It's such outrageous spin. I've had people say to me before "You'll hate Dubas no matter what. No matter how much success he has, you'll find a way to spin it". No I won't. But that's what many of YOU are doing with Lou.

He was hired to rebuild the team. The team he inherited was a LAST PLACE team. Three full seasons later, the leafs were filled with arguably the best elite young core in the franchises history and had made the playoffs twice in a row (something that had happened ONCE in the twelve years prior to Lou's hiring). How could that rebuild be considered a failure? How is it possible that some are spinning it that way?

To make matters worse, Lou goes on to another team that's supposed to be crap, and in two years has won THREE playoff rounds and a play in round.

So you know how many of you accuse me of this? "Even if the leaf team starts succeeding, you won't give Dubas any credit. You're a hater. You'll say he got lucky, or we had easy opponents or something stupid." Well, that's what many of YOU are doing to Lou. How do you not see it?
 
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Throw More Waffles said:
It's such outrageous spin. I've had people say to me before "You'll hate Dubas no matter what. No matter how much success he has, you'll find a way to spin it". No I won't. But that's what many of YOU are doing with Lou.

He was hired to rebuild the team. The team he inherited was a LAST PLACE team. Three full seasons later, the leafs were filled with arguably the best elite young core in the franchises history and had made the playoffs twice in a row (something that had happened ONCE in the twelve years prior to Lou's hiring). How could that rebuild be considered a failure? How is it possible that some are spinning it that way?

To make matters worse, Lou goes on to another team that's supposed to be crap, and in two years has won THREE playoff rounds and a play in round.

So you know how many of you accuse me of this? "Even if the leaf team starts succeeding, you won't give Dubas any credit. You're a hater. You'll say he got lucky, or we had easy opponents or something stupid." Well, that's what many of YOU are doing to Lou. How do you not see it?
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Maybe if Lamoriello got Nylander to sign a contract extension before the 2017-18 season had started since could have done that starting on July 1, 2017 until the day he was no longer the GM, maybe it would have made things easier when Dubas worked on the contract extensions for Matthews and Marner.
 
Throw More Waffles said:
It's such outrageous spin. I've had people say to me before "You'll hate Dubas no matter what. No matter how much success he has, you'll find a way to spin it". No I won't. But that's what many of YOU are doing with Lou.

He was hired to rebuild the team. The team he inherited was a LAST PLACE team. Three full seasons later, the leafs were filled with arguably the best elite young core in the franchises history and had made the playoffs twice in a row (something that had happened ONCE in the twelve years prior to Lou's hiring). How could that rebuild be considered a failure? How is it possible that some are spinning it that way?

To make matters worse, Lou goes on to another team that's supposed to be crap, and in two years has won THREE playoff rounds and a play in round.

So you know how many of you accuse me of this? "Even if the leaf team starts succeeding, you won't give Dubas any credit. You're a hater. You'll say he got lucky, or we had easy opponents or something stupid." Well, that's what many of YOU are doing to Lou. How do you not see it?
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Lou completely wasted having the best collection of ELC talent in the league. Getting lucky with a 35yr old backup goalie made him look much better than he was.

That's what happened.
 
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Throw More Waffles said:
It's such outrageous spin. I've had people say to me before "You'll hate Dubas no matter what. No matter how much success he has, you'll find a way to spin it". No I won't. But that's what many of YOU are doing with Lou.

He was hired to rebuild the team. The team he inherited was a LAST PLACE team. Three full seasons later, the leafs were filled with arguably the best elite young core in the franchises history and had made the playoffs twice in a row (something that had happened ONCE in the twelve years prior to Lou's hiring). How could that rebuild be considered a failure? How is it possible that some are spinning it that way?

To make matters worse, Lou goes on to another team that's supposed to be crap, and in two years has won THREE playoff rounds and a play in round.

So you know how many of you accuse me of this? "Even if the leaf team starts succeeding, you won't give Dubas any credit. You're a hater. You'll say he got lucky, or we had easy opponents or something stupid." Well, that's what many of YOU are doing to Lou. How do you not see it?
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tenor.gif
 
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zeke said:
Lou completely wasted having the best collection of ELC talent in the league. Getting lucky with a 35yr old backup goalie made him look much better than he was.

That's what happened.
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Despite all that during the 2 years when Toronto made the playoffs with Lamoriello they lost in the first round both years in six games against Washington in 2017 and seven games against Boston in 2018.

Plus in 2018 even though they set a franchise record with 49 wins and 105 points which helped by going 7-2 in the shootout, they blew a 4-3 lead going into the 3rd period of that Game 7 in Boston and lost 7-4.
 
LeafsNation75 said:
Despite all that during the 2 years when Toronto made the playoffs with Lamoriello they lost in six games against Washington in 2017 and seven games against Boston in 2018.

Plus in 2018 even though they set a franchise record with 49 wins and 105 points which helped by going 7-2 in the shootout, they blew a 4-3 lead going into the 3rd period of that Game 7 in Boston and lost 7-4.
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That Lou series against Boston was the worst playoffs performance of all of them.
 
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When Dubas first came on the scene I'll be honest, I didnt know anything about him except that he was a very smart kid who had an interest in analytics and his love was hockey. I remember him being acknowledged as the future GM of Maple Leafs if things go well.

What moved me over to Dubas' side unanimously was his ability at speaking and communicating his knowledge about all things hockey. I'd watch all his online videos where he's educating so many people and it was here I noticed that wow his grasp of the game, analytics, biases, etc, it was top notch.

My only scare came when I heard Avalanche wanted to hire him and I was becoming so upset because this was the time when Lou was messing up, shitting away 2nd rd picks, overpaying Zaits, etc etc.

Thank you Dubas for locking up the core (no thx to Lou), fabulous job this off-season retooling team. Let's get at 'er.
 
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Menzinger said:
Your earlier post implied Dubas inherited a strong prospect pool (taking issue with another posters suggestion that the cupboards were "bare").
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Let's not play this silly game of twist.

The original quote I responded to was this:

Antropovsky said:
His recent moves have been impressive:
... I'm a believer.... it is one thing to have a great group of young players who can win, but its another to have it and keep the cupboard relatively full. Dubas appears to be filling it back up, while Hunter and Lou let it get pretty empty.
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To which I wondered how Hunter and Lou left the Cupboard empty.

Under them we were given 21 picks by the League. They went to the draft table 27 times, having made moves to acquire more assets. So that's a net gain.

They acquired more picks than those 27 though and parlayed them into assets to bring talent in such as Andersen and Kapanen. They were astute on the waiver wire picking up McElhinney.

On the draft front, they landed Marner, Matthews, Dermott and Liljgren who have all made positive contributions to the team.

From a Cupboard perspective... it was far from empty when Dubas got it. Most GMs would salivate over what they had.

Cupboard empty? No. Myth busted.

You then added a nuance to this:

Menzinger said:
Do you think the Leafs drafted well, outside of the top 5 in that 2015-17 period?
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So ignoring the drafted mega stars and talented D men and the picks they turned into a starting goalie and solid player... did they draft well?

Impossible to say. It's too early.

And way too early to compare draft records of the current GM to Lou's.

That's where we are.
 
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Pookie said:
To which I wondered how Hunter and Lou left the Cupboard empty.

Under them we were given 21 picks by the League. They went to the draft table 27 times, having made moves to acquire more assets. So that's a net gain.

They acquired more picks than those 27 though and parlayed them into assets to bring talent in such as Andersen and Kapanen. They were astute on the waiver wire picking up McElhinney.

On the draft front, they landed Marner, Matthews, Dermott and Liljgren who have all made positive contributions to the team.

From a Cupboard perspective... it was far from empty when Dubas got it. Most GMs would salivate over what they had.

Cupboard empty? No. Myth busted.

You then added a nuance to this:
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Among the selections that Mark Hunter was responsible for making I will give him 100% credit for selecting Mitch Marner instead of listening to Mike Babcock who wanted to select Noah Hanifin 4th overall in 2015. Going into the 2015 Draft I wanted Marner to get drafted by Toronto and was happy to see that.

However besides Marner being the obvious choice when they selected in the top 5, it's also a problem that Hunter's only other selection from the 2nd round on that has made the Maple Leafs full time was Travis Dermott.

Also what about the fact some people give Hunter criticism that one of the other players he passed on in the 2015 Draft was Travis Konecny. Yes it was Kyle Dubas job that year to get Hunter more picks and he did that when they traded down from the 24th pick to the 29th pick with the Flyers and they selected Konecny with the pick Toronto got from Nashville in the Cody Franson trade.
 
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LeafsNation75 said:
Among the selections that Mark Hunter was responsible for making I will give him 100% credit for selecting Mitch Marner instead of listening to Mike Babcock who wanted to select Noah Hanifin 4th overall in 2015. Going into the 2015 Draft I wanted Marner to get drafted by Toronto and was happy to see that.

However besides Marner being the obvious choice when they selected in the top 5, it's also a problem that Hunter's only other selection from the 2nd round on that has made the Maple Leafs full time was Travis Dermott.
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Well, Grundstrom was taken in the 2nd round. He was part of the package that went to LA for Jake Muzzin. So, is that not worth something?
 
LeafsNation75 said:
Among the selections that Mark Hunter was responsible for making I will give him 100% credit for selecting Mitch Marner instead of listening to Mike Babcock who wanted to select Noah Hanifin 4th overall in 2015. Going into the 2015 Draft I wanted Marner to get drafted by Toronto and was happy to see that.

However besides Marner being the obvious choice when they selected in the top 5, it's also a problem that Hunter's only other selection from the 2nd round on that has made the Maple Leafs full time was Travis Dermott.

Also what about the fact some people give Hunter criticism that one of the other players he passed on in the 2015 Draft was Travis Konecny. Yes it was Kyle Dubas job that year to get Hunter more picks and he did that when they traded down from the 24th pick to the 29th pick with the Flyers.
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My only question is would most NHL scouting staffs draft two small skill forwards with B2B picks?

Marner and Debrincat? Maybe that's why they went Korshkov? Either way it looks bad now bc Korshkov isn't gonna be a TOP6 player. That's why they say skill over size eh.

Hart was available in 2016 draft which we passed on for Korshkov. We took Dermott over Hurricanes Aho in 2015. Rope Hintz was available in 2015 too. I'm glad Dubas prides skill over size because that bodes well when you see other teams not taking guys like Korshkov and Biggs, etc.
 
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While we are discussing some of the drafted prospects that didn't develop on the Marlies from 2015-2017.... who was GM of the Marlies at that time and in charge of their development?
 
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MattySnipes said:
My only question is would most NHL scouting staffs draft two small skill forwards with B2B picks?

Marner and Debrincat? Maybe that's why they went Korshkov? Either way it looks bad now bc Korshkov isn't gonna be a TOP6 player. That's why they say skill over size eh.

Hart was also available in a draft which we passed on. We took Dermott over Hurricanes Aho.
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I think Dubey would have grabbed Girard tbh.
 
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MattySnipes said:
My only question is would most NHL scouting staffs draft two small skill forwards with B2B picks?

Marner and Debrincat? Maybe that's why they went Korshkov? Either way it looks bad now bc Korshkov isn't gonna be a TOP6 player. That's why they say skill over size eh.

Hart was also available in a draft which we passed on. We took Dermott over Hurricanes Aho.
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Debrincat and Hart were the following year in the Matthews draft.

Drafting Marner in the 1st is likely why they decided to go D with the next pick instead of another smaller skilled forward in Aho though.
 
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acrobaticgoalie said:
Debrincat and Hart were the following year in the Matthews draft.

Drafting Marner in the 1st is likely why they decided to go D with the next pick instead of another smaller skilled forward in Aho though.
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Yes, exactly. That seems to be the thinking. Sometimes the father should just buy the candy on his own, instead of allowing his children. Lmao.
 
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