News Article: Kovacevic: Time to trade Letang could be now

[mpp9]

You say this all the time, but I still don't see where you're basing it from. You like ROR and think he's a good fit for this team, but that doesn't mean that Shero does. There are a lot of reasons Shero might be interested in ROR, but there's also a lot of reasons Shero could be weary of him.

I would like to think that Shero likes my favorite wingers around the league and would be interested in them, but I don't know if he does or not.

He works the boards well, high hockey IQ, elite defensively, 100% effort all over the ice. Injecting that type of player in a prime role on this team would do wonders.

His skating hasn't hindered him in anyway playing with Duchene. Who's just as quick as Sid.

Educated guess on my part.

 

[Waffle Fries]

He works the boards well, high hockey IQ, elite defensively, 100% effort all over the ice. Injecting that type of player in a prime role on this team would do wonders.

His skating hasn't hindered him in anyway playing with Duchene. Who's just as quick as Sid.

Educated guess on my part.

His contract is the biggest concern. His skating and his offense are secondary. Does Shero want to trade our #1 defensemen for a winger he's been outscoring the past 3 years?

He might like him, I just don't think using your guess of what Shero thinks of him validates your argument.

 

[mpp9]

His contract is the biggest concern. His skating and his offense are secondary. Does Shero want to trade our #1 defensemen for a winger he's been outscoring the past 3 years?

He might like him, I just don't think using your guess of what Shero thinks of him validates your argument.

All we have is speculation. My speculation is that ROR is a Shero type of player. An intense player who scores clutch goals and can complement our current top 6 forward group very well.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Fact is, Sid's wingers are two guys in their mid 30's. The only use one of them has is his speed, and he blew out his knee.

Kunitz is great, but he's not James Neal, and he's not Marian Hossa. Crosby's been in the League for 8 years and Kunitz is the best the organization has done for him. To me that is a crime.

I love Beau, but I don't want Sid to be 30 by the time we find out about him for sure. Make a move NOW and be done with it so this team gets where it needs to go.

 

[Michael8771*]

Fact is, Sid's wingers are two guys in their mid 30's. The only use one of them has is his speed, and he blew out his knee.

Kunitz is great, but he's not James Neal, and he's not Marian Hossa. Crosby's been in the League for 8 years and Kunitz is the best the organization has done for him. To me that is a crime.

I love Beau, but I don't want Sid to be 30 by the time we find out about him for sure. Make a move NOW and be done with it so this team gets where it needs to go.

I concur, If there is a viable deal to upgrade Sid's RW now, or at the very least before the TDL, It really should be given some serious thought.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

He works the boards well, high hockey IQ, elite defensively, 100% effort all over the ice. Injecting that type of player in a prime role on this team would do wonders.

His skating hasn't hindered him in anyway playing with Duchene. Who's just as quick as Sid.

Educated guess on my part.

It does not matter. Letang has more value than ROR. Letang was nominated for the Norris last year and has amazing talent. But even if you could make the case that ROR has as much player value as Letang, he is on a bad deal, is not controlled for very long, and he has signed an offer sheet in the past. You could very likely be in a bidding war for the guy within months of trading away Letang for him. Philly would like nothing more than to poach the big trade piece coming back for Letang.

No GM in the league could or should take this risk.

We need a Landeskog or E.Kane level player AND deal back to consider trading Letang. ROR provides neither.

 

[mpp9]

It does not matter. Letang has more value than ROR. Letang was nominated for the Norris last year and has amazing talent. But even if you could make the case that ROR has as much player value as Letang, he is on a bad deal, is not controlled for very long, and he has signed an offer sheet in the past. You could very likely be in a bidding war for the guy within months of trading away Letang for him. Philly would like nothing more than to poach the big trade piece coming back for Letang.

No GM in the league could or should take this risk.

We need a Landeskog or E.Kane level player AND deal back to consider trading Letang. ROR provides neither.

If Sid is going up against top lines for the rest of his prime, ROR is as good as any winger in helping him win that matchup.

 

[drpepper]

Team's GPG with Letang in the lineup vs. out
Team's GAA with Letang in the lineup vs. out
Team's PP% with Letang in the lineup vs. out
Letang's PPG avg. when Sid AND/or Geno are out

And the most important one:
What Sid and Geno's PPG avg. is without Letang in the lineup. Do THEIR point totals suffer when he's out?

All data is 5v5 from Hockey Analysis. GF20=goals for per 20 min, GA20=goals against per 20 min, GF=percentage of goals for (numbers greater than 50% are good)

Year | Letang In | | | Letang Out | | | Differential |
|GF20 |GA20 | GF% | GF20 | GA20 | GF% | GF | GA
2013-14 | 0.555 | 0.777 | 0.417 | 1.016 | 0.796 | 0.561 | -0.461 | 0.019
2012-13 | 1.225 | 0.677 | 0.644 | 0.857 | 0.645 | 0.57 | 0.368 | -0.032
2011-12 | 1.32 | 0.828 | 0.615 | 0.878 | 0.841 | 0.511 | 0.442 | 0.013
2010-11 | 0.866 | 0.745 | 0.538 | 0.745 | 0.647 | 0.535 | 0.121 | -0.098
2009-10 | 0.993 | 0.89 | 0.527 | 0.901 | 0.834 | 0.519 | 0.092 | -0.056
2008-09 | 0.969 | 0.897 | 0.519 | 0.846 | 0.658 | 0.563 | 0.123 | -0.239
2007-08 | 0.715 | 0.6 | 0.544 | 0.793 | 0.706 | 0.529 | -0.078 | 0.106
Career | 0.993 | 0.786 | 0.558 | 0.819 | 0.747 | 0.523 | 0.174 | -0.039

Careerwise on average, when Letang is on the ice, the Pens have had more offense than when without him. This year has been one of his worse statistically. With Letang on the ice, the team is projected to score less. In goals against over his career, the Pens have more goals against when Letang is on the ice, but the difference is small and and more than made up for by the offensive production when he is on the ice. This year the Pens have performed better on defense with Letang on the ice although the difference is small and the sample size is limited due to his injuries. This does not indicate who else was on the ice with or without Letang.


(Notes: In the differential section, a negative GF number means the Pens produced more goals without Letang on the ice. A negative GA number means more goals were scored against the Pens with Letang on the ice such that negative numbers in the differential GF and GA mean poorer performances with Letang on the ice.)

2013-2014

Pairing | GF20 | GA20 | GF%
Crosby+Letang | 0.584 | 0.779 | 42.9
Letang-Crosby | 0.537 | 0.776 | 40.9
Crosby-Letang | 1.315 | 0.953 | 58
Malkin+Letang | 0.827 | 0.827 | 50
Letang-Malkin | 0.431 | 0.755 | 36.4
Malkin-Letang | 1.367 | 0.962 | 58.7

Based on TOI together this season, Letang's most frequently plays with Crosby, Kunitz and Malkin at forward and Maatta or Scuderi at D. With Letang and Crosby or Malkin (the lineup may also include all three), offensive production falls although the effect is not as bad with Letang and Malkin. Without Letang and with Malkin or Crosby, goals against is greater.

Average 2008-2012

Pairing | GF20 | GA20 | GF%
Crosby+Letang | 1.522 | 0.99 | 60.6
Letang-Crosby | 0.853 | 0.788 | 52
Crosby-Letang | 1.208 | 0.825 | 59.4
Malkin+Letang | 1.442 | 0.921 | 61
Letang-Malkin | 0.868 | 0.809 | 51.8
Malkin-Letang | 0.993 | 0.905 | 52.3

In previous years, Letang with Malkin or Crosby produced more offense than Crosby or Malkin without Letang. Crosby had only a slight reduction in offensive production without Letang and fewer goals against. In contrast, Malkin without Letang saw a greater reduction in goals for and only a slight improvement in goals against.

All numbers indicate that this has been an anomalous poor year for Letang, but as he is still young and has no lingering injury, I would expect him to improve back towards his career average. In addition, I would increase his time with Malkin.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

If Sid is going up against top lines for the rest of his prime, ROR is as good as any winger in helping him win that matchup.

Then find an ROR level player who is signed long term and then you me and Ray can set up a telcon and go over it.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

It does not matter. Letang has more value than ROR. Letang was nominated for the Norris last year and has amazing talent. But even if you could make the case that ROR has as much player value as Letang, he is on a bad deal, is not controlled for very long, and he has signed an offer sheet in the past. You could very likely be in a bidding war for the guy within months of trading away Letang for him. Philly would like nothing more than to poach the big trade piece coming back for Letang.

No GM in the league could or should take this risk.

We need a Landeskog or E.Kane level player AND deal back to consider trading Letang. ROR provides neither.

You're missing one of the main points of the article; it doesn't really matter if Shero doesn't get top value for Tang or "loses" the trade in a vacuum because he's easily replace from within and the Pens need an elite winger much more than they need Tang.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Fact is, Sid's wingers are two guys in their mid 30's. The only use one of them has is his speed, and he blew out his knee.

Kunitz is great, but he's not James Neal, and he's not Marian Hossa. Crosby's been in the League for 8 years and Kunitz is the best the organization has done for him. To me that is a crime.

I love Beau, but I don't want Sid to be 30 by the time we find out about him for sure. Make a move NOW and be done with it so this team gets where it needs to go.

Seriously. Overpay if you have to. Just get him somebody. Every season we waste assets on more rentals when those assets could've been used together to get a long term solution. If we would've just manned up these past few years and spent a little more we'd be in a much better position.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Seriously. Overpay if you have to. Just get him somebody. Every season we waste assets on more rentals when those assets could've been used together to get a long term solution. If we would've just manned up these past few years and spent a little more we'd be in a much better position.

Yeah... but then they might have hurt Dupuis' feelings.

We can't have that.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Yeah... but then they might have hurt Dupuis' feelings.

We can't have that.

True... You make a compelling point.

 

[mpp9]

Then find an ROR level player who is signed long term and then you me and Ray can set up a telcon and go over it.

Or ROR. For Letang. Which is what I've been arguing helps this team longterm.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

True... You make a compelling point.

Not only that but all those "rentals" as you call them provided valuable veteran... stuff.

Intangibles and uh... heart. You aren't gonna get that from some fancy-pants (probably European) guy who, like... is out there to score goals, and whatnot. That's not at all the point of the game.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Not only that but all those "rentals" as you call them provided valuable veteran... stuff.

Intangibles and uh... heart. You aren't gonna get that from some fancy-pants (probably European) guy who, like... is out there to score goals, and whatnot. That's not at all the point of the game.

So right...

 

[AjaxTelamon]

All data is 5v5 from Hockey Analysis. GF20=goals for per 20 min, GA20=goals against per 20 min, GF=percentage of goals for (numbers greater than 50% are good)

Year | Letang In | | | Letang Out | | | Differential |
|GF20 |GA20 | GF% | GF20 | GA20 | GF% | GF | GA
2013-14 | 0.555 | 0.777 | 0.417 | 1.016 | 0.796 | 0.561 | -0.461 | 0.019
2012-13 | 1.225 | 0.677 | 0.644 | 0.857 | 0.645 | 0.57 | 0.368 | -0.032
2011-12 | 1.32 | 0.828 | 0.615 | 0.878 | 0.841 | 0.511 | 0.442 | 0.013
2010-11 | 0.866 | 0.745 | 0.538 | 0.745 | 0.647 | 0.535 | 0.121 | -0.098
2009-10 | 0.993 | 0.89 | 0.527 | 0.901 | 0.834 | 0.519 | 0.092 | -0.056
2008-09 | 0.969 | 0.897 | 0.519 | 0.846 | 0.658 | 0.563 | 0.123 | -0.239
2007-08 | 0.715 | 0.6 | 0.544 | 0.793 | 0.706 | 0.529 | -0.078 | 0.106
Career | 0.993 | 0.786 | 0.558 | 0.819 | 0.747 | 0.523 | 0.174 | -0.039

Careerwise on average, when Letang is on the ice, the Pens have had more offense than when without him. This year has been one of his worse statistically. With Letang on the ice, the team is projected to score less. In goals against over his career, the Pens have more goals against when Letang is on the ice, but the difference is small and and more than made up for by the offensive production when he is on the ice. This year the Pens have performed better on defense with Letang on the ice although the difference is small and the sample size is limited due to his injuries. This does not indicate who else was on the ice with or without Letang.


(Notes: In the differential section, a negative GF number means the Pens produced more goals without Letang on the ice. A negative GA number means more goals were scored against the Pens with Letang on the ice such that negative numbers in the differential GF and GA mean poorer performances with Letang on the ice.)

2013-2014

Pairing | GF20 | GA20 | GF%
Crosby+Letang | 0.584 | 0.779 | 42.9
Letang-Crosby | 0.537 | 0.776 | 40.9
Crosby-Letang | 1.315 | 0.953 | 58
Malkin+Letang | 0.827 | 0.827 | 50
Letang-Malkin | 0.431 | 0.755 | 36.4
Malkin-Letang | 1.367 | 0.962 | 58.7

Based on TOI together this season, Letang's most frequently plays with Crosby, Kunitz and Malkin at forward and Maatta or Scuderi at D. With Letang and Crosby or Malkin (the lineup may also include all three), offensive production falls although the effect is not as bad with Letang and Malkin. Without Letang and with Malkin or Crosby, goals against is greater.

Average 2008-2012

Pairing | GF20 | GA20 | GF%
Crosby+Letang | 1.522 | 0.99 | 60.6
Letang-Crosby | 0.853 | 0.788 | 52
Crosby-Letang | 1.208 | 0.825 | 59.4
Malkin+Letang | 1.442 | 0.921 | 61
Letang-Malkin | 0.868 | 0.809 | 51.8
Malkin-Letang | 0.993 | 0.905 | 52.3

In previous years, Letang with Malkin or Crosby produced more offense than Crosby or Malkin without Letang. Crosby had only a slight reduction in offensive production without Letang and fewer goals against. In contrast, Malkin without Letang saw a greater reduction in goals for and only a slight improvement in goals against.

All numbers indicate that this has been an anomalous poor year for Letang, but as he is still young and has no lingering injury, I would expect him to improve back towards his career average. In addition, I would increase his time with Malkin.

Very interesting analysis, ty Dr. Malkin's offense is more often predicated on the rush, and that may have some bearing on his greater reliance on a good PMD. It does show Letang's value to tilt the ice 5 on 5, which is and always has been something the Pens rely on. Possibly this is less so the case when our better young puck movers come up.

 

[Fire Shero*]

Fact is, Sid's wingers are two guys in their mid 30's. The only use one of them has is his speed, and he blew out his knee.

Kunitz is great, but he's not James Neal, and he's not Marian Hossa. Crosby's been in the League for 8 years and Kunitz is the best the organization has done for him. To me that is a crime.

I love Beau, but I don't want Sid to be 30 by the time we find out about him for sure. Make a move NOW and be done with it so this team gets where it needs to go.

This

 

[Michael8771*]

This

Thank you.

 

[mpp9]

Very interesting analysis, ty Dr. Malkin's offense is more often predicated on the rush, and that may have some bearing on his greater reliance on a good PMD. It does show Letang's value to tilt the ice 5 on 5, which is and always has been something the Pens rely on. Possibly this is less so the case when our better young puck movers come up.

And it's interesting to see he's not nearly as effective this year when alot of our offense has come from generating turnovers in the neutral zone.

I don't buy it's purely from injuries. He's simply not as effective this year at ES. Give Sid and Geno more help and ask our defense to play defense.

 

[Fire Shero*]

Seriously. Overpay if you have to. Just get him somebody. Every season we waste assets on more rentals when those assets could've been used together to get a long term solution. If we would've just manned up these past few years and spent a little more we'd be in a much better position.

But but but you can't force players to sign here! How do you know Shero didn't try to make a deal over the past 3 years? He's on the phone all day with other gms! I mean, Shero tried to sign Parise even though he was a package deal with suter, who said he'd only play in the western conference and be near Wisconsin. Pittsburgh is sort of near Wisconsin! Shero used his connections with Nashville to pickup Cal O'Reilly and acquired Dan Hamhuis who would have signed here if Vancouver didn't have a team and he wasnt from that area! Michalek left on good terms! He and Shero exchange emails daily. Gotta treat your players right!

 

[Will Hunting]

But but but you can't force players to sign here! How do you know Shero didn't try to make a deal over the past 3 years? He's on the phone all day with other gms! I mean, Shero tried to sign Parise even though he was a package deal with suter, who said he'd only play in the western conference and be near Wisconsin. Pittsburgh is sort of near Wisconsin! Shero used his connections with Nashville to pickup Cal O'Reilly and acquired Dan Hamhuis who would have signed here if Vancouver didn't have a team and he wasnt from that area! Michalek left on good terms! He and Shero exchange emails daily. Gotta treat your players right!

This. And he also signed Chuck Kobasew.

 

[drpepper]

And it's interesting to see he's not nearly as effective this year when alot of our offense has come from generating turnovers in the neutral zone.

I don't buy it's purely from injuries. He's simply not as effective this year at ES. Give Sid and Geno more help and ask our defense to play defense.

I have absolutely no data to support this. But, Letang seems to overthink the game. He obsesses over mistakes, overlooks simple things, and takes himself out of his own game. Missed games and injuries make these traits worse because he isn't playing regularly enough to take him out of his head, force him to stop thinking, and refocus on the ice and actual play. Add to that different playing partners (Maatta and Scuderi) and a different scheme and transitional play (Martin). Hopefully, time on the ice mitigates most of these problems.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

I don't know if a trade of this magnitude is possible, but...

LW/C/RW Evander Kane
LW Andrew Ladd

D Kris Letang
D Simon Despres

OR

RW Jordan Eberle
C Sam Gagner
2015 1st round pick (Shot at McDavid)

D Kris Letang
D Simon Despres

How do we fit under the cap with Kane and Ladd?

Gagner and 1st?

ROR + McGinn
For
Letang + pick/dump

Is my dream trade right now. As it's the right time to do it. It works out well for both teams.

Now we’re getting somewhere. Who’s the dump though? There’s a difference of $3.25m to make up. Now future contracts….is there anything from the past that might make us hesitant O’Reilly will buy into the “Pit discount?”

The main point here is trade Letang for Crosby’s Neal. For the record, I don’t think O’Reilly fills that.

This forum didn't brainstorm the idea of trading Letang, I can assure you. In fact, it's so not crazy to trade a coveted $7 million playoff liability that it probably occurred to many.

Playoff liability? Is this how far we’ve come around here? You mean the Pens’ leading scorer in last year’s playoffs? Remember how lit up the defense got against Boston? He single handedly didn’t score and got walked on a nightly basis. What a choke artist. :eyesroll:

I think this has been an especially poor year for Letang exacerbated by injury and a revamped system. It's concerning, but not enough for me to seriously consider dealing him.

Right. Niskanen and Martin can regain their form but not Letang… I’m not following that.

There is no way we are getting 3x Art Ross winner and 5x Selke winner Ryan O'Reilly for Kris Letang.

No way.

ROR is the kind of player you win cups with.

You gotta see the irony in that statement.

Kunitz-Crosby-O'Reilly
Jokinen-Malkin-Neal
McGinn-Sutter-Bennett
Glass-Vitale-Adams (because Bylsma)

Who wouldn’t love those forwards (minus that 4th line)?

Orpik-Martin
Scuderi-Niskanen
Maatta-Bortuzzo
Despres

Call me crazy but that defense…I’d be far from comfortable with it.

How quickly Niskanen can go from clown to king in one season – just last year was it a 2nd or Seto? Now we’re comfortable with him getting top 4 minutes, never mind that in this scenario our top pairing has the biggest goat on this roster outside of Letang on it - Brooks. And now in the future we’re ready to pony up $4m+ to keep Nisky… at the expense of our franchise defender! How quickly Letang goes from Norris candidate to punk in even less time it took Niskanen to make his 180…in less time than it took Paul Martin to find his game again after an atrocious season. Here we are in the present having accepted that two defensemen the entire board wanted trashed are now currently two pieces we covet. Yet our former Norris candidate couldn’t possibly return to form or improve upon it?

I agree. We need to do everything we can to trade Martin while we can. He is so awful defensively.

Wait, what year is it?

I think I see what you did there.

That is very true, Letang is an elite player, and his cost certainty is HUGE. With the recent news about the salary cap, we can expect numbers to hit 70+ next year, and 80+ the following year, with an expected cap of 100 mil by 2022 when Letang's contract expires. So if we look at a snapshot of the cap when he, along with Crosby, Malkin and Neal have hit their primes, let's say age 28-29, that would be 2015-2016, here are our signed and controlled players:

Wait until you see Subban's next deal. You'll be happy you have Letang.

Hasn’t Phaneuf’s contract already put you at ease?

Crosby's been in the League for 8 years and Kunitz is the best the organization has done for him. To me that is a crime.

I won’t and can’t argue with that. More could have and should have been done, but that CAN BE a separate issue. Getting Crosby’s sniper doesn’t have to involve sacrificing Letang. It didn’t when we missed the boat on earlier signings and it shouldn’t now, especially when we have a cost-controlled asset in place for 8 years with an almost certainly-increasing cap.

Letang as a PP QB.

On a team with Crosby and Malkin I’m totally fine with Letang not being the QB.

One thing I've seen with defensemen is that while it often takes until their late 20's early 30's to "get it", that's usually on the defensive side of things.

Not saying Letang is Lidstrom or Niedermayer, but both guys got better offensively – specifically the powerplay.

Same erratic shot, same erratic decision making, and he STILL can't get it into anyone's wheelhouse for a one time shot on a consistent enough basis.

Maybe a few offseasons working on his shot the same way he seems to work on his fitness…hard to argue with you though, even if the shot power is getting better.

Letang as a shutdown D-man

He isn't that either. The coaching staff has chosen to have two guys in their 30's to go up against the opposing team's best players. It was the same thing last year.

Nooooo, clearly you jest. It’s an argument used in so many cases against this team but in this particular case it’s because Letang isn’t good enough defensively, not because the coaching staff has “defensive specialist” roles carved out for given players in their head. Scuderi should be a shutdown guy as he simply isn’t good at moving the puck. Martin is another because right now he plays a more simple and intelligent game than Letang. Go back two seasons….

I think Letang is completely capable of playing defensively the same way Duncan Keith is.

Letang as a mentor.

Ask DP who his likely role models are within this organization. Letang is 26. His mentor days are approaching.

The organization as a whole doesn't see him as any sort of leader.

Dedication to the game and training – I don’t think a coach in the league wouldn’t want his young guys following that example.

Decision making/Hockey IQ

Probably the vaguest “elite defensemen” characteristic out there. Not to mention the most oft-spouted line around here. To be clear I think Letang often makes poor pinches, misses stretch passes that cause turnovers, and generally over-complicates things. So does just about every elite puck-moving defenseman out there.

The same way you think “Letang enthusiasts” fail to address your elite defensemen qualifications, I can’t help but notice the silence when “old” Letang shows up. Last night he got a “nice pass” because of a pinpoint PP pass to Sid’s tape, but of course he had to play a near flawless game up until that point to get the credit. How quiet the board got against Florida when in a 3-1 game Letang carved his way end-to-end through the entire Panther’s defense, pulled a spin-o-rama, and nearly finished a 5-hole shot through Clemenson. Not a peep.

Or how about when defensemen around the league that fit your criteria suddenly show all kinds of signs of suckery – Subban, Karlsso, Doughty are all tops in the league for giveaways. Even the golden man Keith is in the top 40 (to be clear he’s the Norris winner). Then defensive stalwarts around the league cough the puck up as well – McDonagh, Hjalmarsson, or Hamhuis. Even the cream of the crop have their bone-headed moments.

I mean just look at Lidstrom chestying Fleury in game 7 of the SCF insead of going along the ice blocker side. F**ckin bum....
Maturity

While the playoff meltdowns have been a team concept, he's the poster boy for the group.

He lost his **** against Philly, but who didn’t? Not gonna blame Letang for that one. Geno, Sid, and Neal have had their moments this year. Letang hasn’t really blown up.

You're missing one of the main points of the article; it doesn't really matter if Shero doesn't get top value for Tang or "loses" the trade in a vacuum because he's easily replace from within and the Pens need an elite winger much more than they need Tang.

No. A thousand times…no.

 

[66-30-33]

ROR+McGinn for Letang+Adams just so he can GTFO!.

??? for Ott, unless he really does ruin his welcome fast like talked about, go for a lesser guy like Clifford.

Glass for a conditional pick.

Callup Sill and Farnham and let them roll with Vitale.

Waive Pyatt and Kobasew.