Value of: Kotkaniemi extension

[elitepete]

Never understood this acquisition by Carolina other than the revenge aspect.

 

[Mr Positive]

Never understood this acquisition by Carolina other than the revenge aspect.

Because this kind of player is rarely made available and they are too good to ever draft one. I dont see the need to factor in some kind of revenge at all. They will likely re sign him for a fair number. He will only get better over time. It's a hockey move through and through

Except maybe, there is an unspoken rule that GMs dont do this or risk their reputation, but Carolina was "allowed" to do it because of what Montreal did with Aho. But imo Carolina would have done this even if the history wasn't there

 

[LakeLivin]

Never understood this acquisition by Carolina other than the revenge aspect.

The rationale has been explained numerous times in multiple threads. I hate that this sounds snarky, but your post is the epitome of the rational for the saying "I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you."

 

[Not The One]

Because this kind of player is rarely made available and they are too good to ever draft one. I dont see the need to factor in some kind of revenge at all. They will likely re sign him for a fair number. He will only get better over time. It's a hockey move through and through

Except maybe, there is an unspoken rule that GMs dont do this or risk their reputation, but Carolina was "allowed" to do it because of what Montreal did with Aho. But imo Carolina would have done this even if the history wasn't there

Except for Svech, every other player on the Canes' roster was acquired through trade or a lower draft pick. Aho was a 35th overall pick.

And KK is still playing 3rd/4th line minutes in his 4th season in a sheltered role. He isn't that good or consistent offensively, he's not really good defensively and hasn't shown many "intangible" qualities. He may eventually find his own place but he hasn't really done that yet.

 

[Gaud]

The most annoying thing is Hab fans who fantasize over his none existent "potential greatness". It's usually accompanied about how bad Bbinz was and that "if only" they had done this or that.

Perfect hindsight about NOTHING. This is NOT the one that great fish that "got away" unless we are comparing him to a carp.

True, but then look at what my carp turned into

 

[Habs Halifax]

Except for Svech, every other player on the Canes' roster was acquired through trade or a lower draft pick. Aho was a 35th overall pick.

And KK is still playing 3rd/4th line minutes in his 4th season in a sheltered role. He isn't that good or consistent offensively, he's not really good defensively and hasn't shown many "intangible" qualities. He may eventually find his own place but he hasn't really done that yet.

KK's stats this year vs last year:
* 63% Offensive zone starts with 59% corsi (very similar to his Habs days). No change playing on a better team.
* 22 pts with 11 goals in 47 games. Slightly better than last season with the Habs but one year older on a better team. (0.36 vs 0.47)
* 12:15 min a game this year vs 14:48 min a game last year. There is a little room of growth for sure by putting up more with a little less ice time
* 6.25 hits/60 vs 6.08
* 1.45 blocks/60 vs 1.95
* 1.66 giveaways/60 vs 1.73
* 1.87 takeaways/60 vs 2.38

The major difference? Canes fan base not obsessive with his development and has him under the microscope like in Montreal. Also playing with a better coach and on a better team where the expectation is fair.

Marchand Quote: Some fans need to look in the mirror in Canada. He's not wrong. Way less distraction and obsessiveness on his development and he's allowed to play in piece with the Canes.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

If Kotkaniemi was comfortable playing winger then he would be getting more than 12 minutes a game. He isn’t and we are where we are.

the whole goal was for him to play 2LW, grow in the system and as a player, and then be ready to play center under Rod’s very high expectations for centers. It hasn’t worked out that way so he only gets more time when guys are out.

it should mean we can move Stepan at the deadline for more cap space to add a 2LW.

 

[Not The One]

If Kotkaniemi was comfortable playing winger then he would be getting more than 12 minutes a game. He isn’t and we are where we are.

the whole goal was for him to play 2LW, grow in the system and as a player, and then be ready to play center under Rod’s very high expectations for centers. It hasn’t worked out that way so he only gets more time when guys are out.

it should mean we can move Stepan at the deadline for more cap space to add a 2LW.

Even then, looking at the Canes' faceoff stats...

NHL Stats

Staal : 811 (276 DZ)
Trocheck: 800 (334 DZ)
Aho: 615 (166 DZ)
Stepan: 311 (135 DZ)
Kotkaniemi: 221 (53 DZ)

So what is he exactly? He's not confortable playing as a winger but he's FIFTH on the team in faceoffs taken and they are clearly avoiding putting him in defensive situations. So apparently he can't play wing but can't play center either?

But he's still so YOUNG...

Here are faceoff stats for this year for all players from his draft year.

NHL Stats

There are six other players from the 2018 draft that have taken more faceoffs than KK this year, including winger Brady Tkachuk. There are also six players from the 2019 draft, two from 2020 and one from 2021 that have also taken more this year.

I was fully onboard with the KK pick at the time, but the reality is that he just hasn't turned out the way we wanted. It's sad but it's the truth.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Even then, looking at the Canes' faceoff stats...

NHL Stats

Staal : 811 (276 DZ)
Trocheck: 800 (334 DZ)
Aho: 615 (166 DZ)
Stepan: 311 (135 DZ)
Kotkaniemi: 221 (53 DZ)

So what is he exactly? He's not confortable playing as a winger but he's FIFTH on the team in faceoffs taken and they are clearly avoiding putting him in defensive situations. So apparently he can't play wing but can't play center either?

But he's still so YOUNG...

Here are faceoff stats for this year for all players from his draft year.

NHL Stats

There are six other players from the 2018 draft that have taken more faceoffs than KK this year, including winger Brady Tkachuk. There are also six players from the 2019 draft, two from 2020 and one from 2021 that have also taken more this year.

I was fully onboard with the KK pick at the time, but the reality is that he just hasn't turned out the way we wanted. It's sad but it's the truth.

You basing his existence on FO stats? Interesting….
Stepan is a RHS and if the dot favors Stepan, Stepan is taking it. He is playing center. It is what it is.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Even then, looking at the Canes' faceoff stats...

NHL Stats

Staal : 811 (276 DZ)
Trocheck: 800 (334 DZ)
Aho: 615 (166 DZ)
Stepan: 311 (135 DZ)
Kotkaniemi: 221 (53 DZ)

So what is he exactly? He's not confortable playing as a winger but he's FIFTH on the team in faceoffs taken and they are clearly avoiding putting him in defensive situations. So apparently he can't play wing but can't play center either?.

He was never going to be more than 4th or 5th in Faceoffs on Carolinas.

1) He's not going to play above Aho, Trocheck or Staal.
2) He's not getting 1st PP unit time over Aho, TT, Svech, Trocheck and DeAngelo
3) He's not displacing anyone on the PK
4) He's spent some time on Wing.

I think he looks fine as a C, not so much at wing. It's why I didn't like the acquisition at the time. It wasn't a position of need in Carolina and would have rather spent the money on a top 9 winger than a top 9 C that has to play on the 4th line or at Wing due to depth.

If/when there are injuries and he moves up in the line-up and/or in the playoffs, then it's probably worth it, just seemed like the wrong fit. I'm not bothered by the cost, even if they let him go after the season. A late 1st and late 3rd is deadline trade prices and they got him for the whole season. Not a big deal to me, just didn't seem like the right fit.

 

[Not The One]

You basing his existence on FO stats? Interesting….
Stepan is a RHS and if the dot favors Stepan, Stepan is taking it. He is playing center. It is what it is.

Well, yeah. A center who doesn't take faceoffs but isn't comfortable enough to play at the wing is kinda pointless unless he has a really strong skillset in another area, which isn't the case for KK.

He's your problem now, at least for this year, but it'll be interesting to see what kind of niche KK can fit himself into to justify his next contract.

 

[CDN24]

He was never going to be more than 4th or 5th in Faceoffs on Carolinas.

1) He's not going to play above Aho, Trocheck or Staal.
2) He's not getting 1st PP unit time over Aho, TT, Svech, Trocheck and DeAngelo
3) He's not displacing anyone on the PK
4) He's spent some time on Wing.

I think he looks fine as a C, not so much at wing. It's why I didn't like the acquisition at the time. It wasn't a position of need in Carolina and would have rather spent the money on a top 9 winger than a top 9 C that has to play on the 4th line or at Wing due to depth.

If/when there are injuries and he moves up in the line-up and/or in the playoffs, then it's probably worth it, just seemed like the wrong fit. I'm not bothered by the cost, even if they let him go after the season. A late 1st and late 3rd is deadline trade prices and they got him for the whole season. Not a big deal to me, just didn't seem like the right fit.

That is what made the move seem strange, it wasn't the right fit. Carolina is deep at centre, while the 1st and a third are no big deal those assets and that $6M cap space would have been better spent on scoring depth on the wing IMO. The opportunity cost of adding another winger may be felt come playoff time- maybe not who knows KK ups his playoff game usually - but the fit did not seem right.

For the player I think signing it was a bigger mistake, sure he gets the $6M now and that is hard to say no to $$$ but if the goal is to become an established Top 6 centre- Carolina was not the place to do it. Heck Mtl was the better option especially after Danault walked. He was going to get top 6 minutes and wingers in mtl. Wonder if he is looking at the freedom Marty St Louis is giving the young guys now and doubting his decision.

As much as Carolina ownership may say revenge was not a factor I think it was. This management group has made a lot of great decisions, you don't build a team this good without great decisions. This wasn't one, the only way that decision makes sense from a management group that good is if revenge was a factor.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

The Canes continue to need a long-term solution with Aho and Teravainen. Svechnikov shouldn't be that guy; his optimal usage is driving his own line in the Middle 6. Kotkaniemi has a lot of qualities that make him a good fit on paper: he's a big body, he's hard on the puck despite his balance issues and he'll go to the front of the net. A common primary language between the three doesn't hurt.

Unfortunately, Kotkaniemi is not a great skater. When they tried it early, he looked out of place with their tempo. There's still an opportunity to try that later on in the season and into the playoffs when the play tightens up.

 

[elitepete]

The rationale has been explained numerous times in multiple threads. I hate that this sounds snarky, but your post is the epitome of the rational for the saying "I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you."

Do you care to explain it to me one more time. I may have actually read it before but forgot.

 

[Tripledeke333]

The question is not what he signs for, but does he sign as an UFA or an RFA?

IMO KK would have to be stupid to sign as an RFA unless he gets his $6 Million QO.

 

[StreetHawk]

The question is not what he signs for, but does he sign as an UFA or an RFA?

IMO KK would have to be stupid to sign as an RFA unless he gets his $6 Million QO.

Given his usage it hasn’t been a great fit. So, does he want to try it again as the roster turns over or does he instead prefer to hit ufa and find something that works better for him. That’s what he needs to decide.

 

[Tripledeke333]

Given his usage it hasn’t been a great fit. So, does he want to try it again as the roster turns over or does he instead prefer to hit ufa and find something that works better for him. That’s what he needs to decide.

Even if he comes back to CAR, why not come back as an UFA? He may as well hit UFA status and then consider offers, unless he gets his $6 Million.

 

[Stickpucker]

Except for Svech, every other player on the Canes' roster was acquired through trade or a lower draft pick. Aho was a 35th overall pick.

And KK is still playing 3rd/4th line minutes in his 4th season in a sheltered role. He isn't that good or consistent offensively, he's not really good defensively and hasn't shown many "intangible" qualities. He may eventually find his own place but he hasn't really done that yet.

Disagree.

He's at his best around the net using his large frame to shelter the puck and make plays.

He's shown the ability to score plenty of dirty goals and to stickhandle in a phone booth near the net, draw 2 defenders, and find the open man.

 

[GoCanes2015]

Except for Svech, every other player on the Canes' roster was acquired through trade or a lower draft pick. Aho was a 35th overall pick.

And KK is still playing 3rd/4th line minutes in his 4th season in a sheltered role. He isn't that good or consistent offensively, he's not really good defensively and hasn't shown many "intangible" qualities. He may eventually find his own place but he hasn't really done that yet.

he's playing where he is because the rest of the forwards are just better than he is, so not so much "sheltered" as "waiting for a spot in the top 6" - once they resolve their go forward contract issues this may change. He's been good for them this year and seems to be getting better of late and gaining more confidence. And when he is out there, he's producing above a typical 3/4 line player

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

That is what made the move seem strange, it wasn't the right fit. Carolina is deep at centre, while the 1st and a third are no big deal those assets and that $6M cap space would have been better spent on scoring depth on the wing IMO. The opportunity cost of adding another winger may be felt come playoff time- maybe not who knows KK ups his playoff game usually - but the fit did not seem right.

For the player I think signing it was a bigger mistake, sure he gets the $6M now and that is hard to say no to $$$ but if the goal is to become an established Top 6 centre- Carolina was not the place to do it. Heck Mtl was the better option especially after Danault walked. He was going to get top 6 minutes and wingers in mtl. Wonder if he is looking at the freedom Marty St Louis is giving the young guys now and doubting his decision.

As much as Carolina ownership may say revenge was not a factor I think it was. This management group has made a lot of great decisions, you don't build a team this good without great decisions. This wasn't one, the only way that decision makes sense from a management group that good is if revenge was a factor.

Deep at centre right now but Trochek is a ufa this summer who is likely to cash in somewhere and Staal is nearing the end of his contract and is having a really poor season offensively. Necas was looked at as being a possible future 2c but hasn’t taken the steps forward most expected this year. There is definitely room next season to step up higher into the lineup.

 

[LakeLivin]

Do you care to explain it to me one more time. I may have actually read it before but forgot.

Sorry, I don't have the energy to completely spell it out right now but I'm willing to give you a couple hints and you can suss out the rest if you care to (or not).

Canes management considers a long term strategy in addition to the immediate. Kotkaneimi is only 21 years old and still has a potentially high ceiling, especially when you consider the way he's been developed (look at some late bloomers like Elias Lindholm, etc.). Trocheck may be gone next season and Staal is on the downhill side of his career. Canes had cap space and wanted to add another winger for this season but didn't find value in the UFA market. Consider the benefit of having KK for the entire '21-'22 season and the potential for him rising in his development and filling a future hole in the Canes lineup and maybe it starts to make some sense.

 

[Runner77]

Have the parties begun negotiating an extension or will that happen after the season?

 

[Toene]

I was told by many posters that the habs would be just as good as they were in the playoffs on January 1st.

And yet here we are. KK is still waiting for his new contract, and the habs are one of the most embarrassing teams in the NHL.

Speaking of embarassing, just looked up your post history and easily half your comments are about the Habs. They broke your mind when they eliminated your pathetic bunch of gutless mercenaries last summer? Poor soul.

 

[elitepete]

Sorry, I don't have the energy to completely spell it out right now but I'm willing to give you a couple hints and you can suss out the rest if you care to (or not).

Canes management considers a long term strategy in addition to the immediate. Kotkaneimi is only 21 years old and still has a potentially high ceiling, especially when you consider the way he's been developed (look at some late bloomers like Elias Lindholm, etc.). Trocheck may be gone next season and Staal is on the downhill side of his career. Canes had cap space and wanted to add another winger for this season but didn't find value in the UFA market. Consider the benefit of having KK for the entire '21-'22 season and the potential for him rising in his development and filling a future hole in the Canes lineup and maybe it starts to make some sense.

I think the problem is that Kotkaniemi kind of sucks.

Hurricanes have Aho, Necas, Trochek, Staal. Even if Staal starts to decline and Trochek walks, they still have Aho and Necas down the middle.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I think the problem is that Kotkaniemi kind of sucks.

Hurricanes have Aho, Necas, Trochek, Staal. Even if Staal starts to decline and Trochek walks, they still have Aho and Necas down the middle.

Except he doesn’t but whatever helps you out man.

Necas isn’t a C so there’s also that.