Kopitar; For or Against a trade if it comes to it?

[DSuttersface]

I say that if he's unreasonable in the amount of money he's asking for then trade him. I think we'd be okay without him. He doesn't produce tons of point for us and and I think there are other centers we have who could be as good defensively. I would love to keep him but I would also entertain the idea of getting someone through free agency and if he's asking price would hamstring us from doing that then trade him for something. I'm sure Deano could get a hefty return for Kopi. Makes me sad to think Kopi might not be on the team but it might work in the Kings favor.

 

[TopT]

I say that if he's unreasonable in the amount of money he's asking for then trade him. I think we'd be okay without him. He doesn't produce tons of point for us and and I think there are other centers we have who could be as good defensively. I would love to keep him but I would also entertain the idea of getting someone through free agency and if he's asking price would hamstring us from doing that then trade him for something. I'm sure Deano could get a hefty return for Kopi. Makes me sad to think Kopi might not be on the team but it might work in the Kings favor.

so many things wrong with this post

 

[tsanuri]

I say that if he's unreasonable in the amount of money he's asking for then trade him. I think we'd be okay without him. He doesn't produce tons of point for us and and I think there are other centers we have who could be as good defensively. I would love to keep him but I would also entertain the idea of getting someone through free agency and if he's asking price would hamstring us from doing that then trade him for something. I'm sure Deano could get a hefty return for Kopi. Makes me sad to think Kopi might not be on the team but it might work in the Kings favor.

He's only been our leading scorer for the last 7 years.
So if he doesn't produce points what does that say about the rest of the team?

 

[Reclamation Project]

Trading Kopitar would never work in the Kings favor.

 

[KINGS17]

How many players have had their best season post age 35? Extremely rare.

Scroll back. The discussion was about 'effective' play at 35 or later. Sundin, Thornton, etc. were all more than effective at that age. I'd be looking at it as played well relative to their position, not to their past. Gretzky still put up 90 points in his second last season at 38. that's first line production, but it's also about 40% of his peak. He's still a top line centre at that production though.

Try post-30.

 

[KINGS17]

Even if you are right and the hill the owners are willing to stand and die on is non guaranteed contracts. They would not be retroactive. A signed contact is exactly that and couldn't be broken without legal repercussions.

You mean like the big salary cuts that players took after the first lockout?

It's a CBA. The CBA controls the SPCs. The SPCs can be changed in a new CBA that both parties agree to, and the changes can be retroactive.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

He got that offer based on what he did in previous years. He was still elite 1C as a 36 year old. That would be the year Kopis contract would end. And i do believe that that they are very similar players.

I might be splitting hairs at this point because I mostly agree but I still think you're vastly underrating Sundin. THat's okay, because most of the hockey world does too, but considering how terrible the teams he was on were, Sundin was an absolute monster with an offensive peak Kopitar hasn't even sniffed. I DO think Kopitar, even now, is the superior two-way player but not by much and that is probably even the homer in me speaking. But going to the lengths we've had to discuss Sundin to find only a handful of guys that were productive into their late 30s (relatively) only shows how tough it is to replicate. It also shows how much even the best players' production declines. The big beef I have with it is the guys who were relatively productive/effective in their thirties were 100-point players at their production peak, where Kopitar was an 80 ranger; what will it look like when he slows down? Will be be a 60-70 point player, or a 50 point player? Finally, this also completely disregards contracts; how many of those names had a near-max contract in their mid-to-late thirties?

I'm going to say this again just because it may look like my position is unclear--I'm actually on the side that says pay him what he wants. We lose Kopi, we lose pretty much everything. But I can easily see the risk involved in the contract, and I'm just pointing out that it's hard to ignore it.

Trading Kopitar would never work in the Kings favor.

I agree. I wouldn't trade Kopitar for any player out there save Crosby, and even then I'd think about it. Malkin = injury risk, Toews is the same guy but Canadian, Stamkos is offense but apparently needs a playmaker, Getzlaf has been chokey in the playoffs...Kopitar has been remarkably durable, consistent, and rising to the occasion when it matters most.

 

[HYORI 1963]

Deano's probably gonna have to bend over and take it in the hershey highway on this one.

 

[Ron*]

Deano's probably gonna have to bend over and take it in the hershey highway on this one.

 

[Reaper45]

Now that was funny.

 

[417th]

I stil stand by what I believe is just the most common sense way of looking at it. Kopitar is one of the top ten #1C in the game and has 3 or 4 years left at being one of them or should barring injuries anyway. He has won 2 cups and performed well in each of the playoff series he has been in (based on each seasons playoffs and not individual team/series). At his worst he is one of the top defensive C's in the game and at his best he is a very complete 200 player. He wants 8 years at $10m (or so it has been suggested) and I think giving him 8 years is perfectly fine so long as he is willing to come down to $9m or a touch more per. If he wants to stick to the $10m # then the number of years is shortened etc.

Finally, if nothing can be done to reach an agreement that keeps the most important C in Kings history (yes, I believe even more important than 99 in many ways) then you have to move him for something in return which means we would have to move him before or at the deadline. Do I think we should sign him? ABSOLUTELY. 8 years at $9.25m seems like a solid enough deal to me. Sure we may regret years six seven and eight but it would lock down our #1C for the rest of this core groups legitimate ability to remain a contender and after that is after that, we can deal with it when we get there.

IF we can't work something out which I believe we can and will then I would rather very very regrettably move him at or near the deadline but even then only if we don't look like we are going to be a serious threat to win it all again.

 

[kingsfan]

No, the discussion I was having was about 1D vs. 1C performance late into their thirties in context vs. their contracts. I'm not saying they weren't effective players, I'm saying that production is a bigger component of a forward's 'effective' play and that their compensation should ultimately be commensurate with their role.

Sundin WAS a 1C even late in his career, similar to Kopitar. I'm on board with that even disregarding Sundin's early career. However, Thornton is arguably not a 1C even now, and no one is talking about giving him a max contract, and so on. I'm convinced that guys like Kopitar, Bergeron, Toews will play at a high level into their 30s, but having a 50-pt center is not first line production, so people have to be able to see that argument.

And to be clear, it's an argument I disagree with, I think Kopitar is STILL going to consistently be a stronger player later on, but it would be foolhardy to disregard that many years of history and examples of elite players tailing off in order to give him a max contract. In fact, if I have a little more time this afternoon, we can probably go back and look at their contracts relative to their peers at that point in their careers. I guarantee it will be more reflective of who they are at that point.

When Thornton signed his contract he was top 10 in terms of cap hit, maybe even top five. So he was offered a high deal cap wise. Years wise, he took a three year deal because he was 35 when he signed it. If he was 29 like Kopi he'd have got a max deal too.

He was also top 30 in the league in scoring and outscored Kopi. He's still producing at a 1st line level.

Try post-30.

Agreed.

 

[Zad]

The package in return for a soon to be UFA was fine, it's what they did with that return and sadly Deadmarsh's short tenure here that made the trade look worse than it actually was. Everyone knew Deadmarsh was coming in as a player who was likely a concussion away from having his career ended, and sadly that did end up happening. His fights with Jovanovski pretty much signaled the slow end to what should've been a long and successful career.

Blake didn't have much support in the post-Gretzky era, but he was one of the reasons this team was somewhat respectable in 1997-98 and 2000-01. While the Kings still did well enough after his departure, the team got throttled with a series of unfortunate events, with injuries to a lack of depth and no defenseman ever being able to fill his shoes until Drew Doughty was drafted in 2008. So between that time frame, the Kings had no legit #1 defenseman.

And as you pointed out with Kopitar, the Kings didn't have a legit #1 center like him since Jason Allison, who turned out to be another short tenured player here.

I'd much prefer to erase those memories and not have to go through that process again with an ugly divorce from Kopitar or Doughty. As we've seen before, a couple of big mistakes can set a team back for many, many years. Losing a player of Kopitar's caliber would kick start a downward spiral.

I came here looking for dancing girls and instead found this post, which made me think...jerk.

 

[go4hockey]

If we lose Kopitar we may as well do a mini rebuild as this team would be done competing for cups without him in the picture.

 

[Captain Mittens*]

I came here looking for dancing girls and instead found this post, which made me think...jerk.

Holy ****

How the hell are you doing?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

When Thornton signed his contract he was top 10 in terms of cap hit, maybe even top five. So he was offered a high deal cap wise. Years wise, he took a three year deal because he was 35 when he signed it. If he was 29 like Kopi he'd have got a max deal too.

He was also top 30 in the league in scoring and outscored Kopi. He's still producing at a 1st line level.

JT has actually signed a series of three year deals. I don't think anyone would be upset if kopi took a huge contract for three years. He might not be the best comparable in this case. His production has tapered off bigtime and his salary/cap is reflecting it very appropriately.

 

[kingsfan]

JT has actually signed a series of three year deals. I don't think anyone would be upset if kopi took a huge contract for three years. He might not be the best comparable in this case. His production has tapered off bigtime and his salary/cap is reflecting it very appropriately.

Perhaps by his own design then? I can't imagine SJ wanted to sign a 28 year old Thornton for only three seasons.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I came here looking for dancing girls and instead found this post, which made me think...jerk.

I can do one better and show you a clip of Blake jerking Palffy around, and not in a good way.



Kinda want to see Doughty throw his weight around a bit more this upcoming season. We started seeing more of that from him a couple of seasons ago but with more minutes this season he seemed to throw less hits this past season.

 

[Zad]

Holy ****

How the hell are you doing?

The hell indeed.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Perhaps by his own design then? I can't imagine SJ wanted to sign a 28 year old Thornton for only three seasons.

Possibly. I can't remember him holding out or being a pain in the ass, but he seemed to want to live on the edge more than most superstars, haha.

The hell indeed.

 

[King'sPawn]

Try post-30.

Henrik Sedin, Daniel Sedin, Pavel Datsyuk, and Henrik Zetterberg's best offensive years were all at the age of 30 and 31

 

[go4hockey]

Why can't Carter be an elite 1C?

Like I've previously posted, there's no need to hit the panic button, even if we were to lose Kopi, which I don't see happening.

Because Carts is not good enough to be an elite #1. He is an elite #2 would be a good #1 but not near elite and then our depth would be poor. If Kopi goes the rebuild begins.

 

[go4hockey]

Carter is the best 2C in the game. All things considered.

I love Carter and all but remember Malkin is a #2 center so Carter can't be the best #2 in the game.

 

[Reclamation Project]

Again, all things considered. Malkin's AAV is $4,500,000 more than Carter's. That's Jake Muzzin and 500K for another player.

Yeah, Malkin's a generational player, big deal.

 

[kingsfan]

Again, all things considered. Malkin's AAV is $4,500,000 more than Carter's. That's Jake Muzzin and 500K for another player.

Yeah, Malkin's a generational player, big deal.

I think the fact Pittsburgh elected to pay a guy that type of coin to be their second line centre knowing they could get roughly a Carter, Muzzin and $500K of cap space instead (regardless of if that was the most effect use of cap sapce) speaks a lot to how great of a player Malkin is and to the fact, all things considered, he's the best #2C in the game.